Shark and Hammel to the A's. Done Deal

chibears55

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I hope season ticket holders know what's being done to them.
What being done now that they didn't know was going to happen when season started. .

Again I ask why some of you seem surprise now that samardzija and Hammel have been traded ?
 

beckdawg

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How long until we should find out the PTBNL? Although it will probably just be a shit toss-in, still curious..

I wish Theo traded himself to the A's in this deal...

There may or may not be depending on who you believe but if there is i'd say we'll know in the next week or two. It depends a lot on why the player is PTBNL. If he's just hurt like Ramirez was you're just waiting until he's healthy and they can look at medicals. If it's a case of someone drafted in the last year you're waiting on the year time frame to end when you're allowed to trade players.

Additionally, it's possibly they have an agreement in place that if x PTBNL doesn't come back healthy they get y player or cash. Given this is the A's we're talking about I would doubt cash is involved.
 

brett05

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What being done now that they didn't know was going to happen when season started. .

Again I ask why some of you seem surprise now that samardzija and Hammel have been traded ?
Stop w the strawmen. No one is surprised that they got traded
 

brett05

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There may or may not be depending on who you believe but if there is i'd say we'll know in the next week or two. It depends a lot on why the player is PTBNL. If he's just hurt like Ramirez was you're just waiting until he's healthy and they can look at medicals. If it's a case of someone drafted in the last year you're waiting on the year time frame to end when you're allowed to trade players.

Additionally, it's possibly they have an agreement in place that if x PTBNL doesn't come back healthy they get y player or cash. Given this is the A's we're talking about I would doubt cash is involved.
The timeline has passed
 

TL1961

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What being done now that they didn't know was going to happen when season started. .

Again I ask why some of you seem surprise now that samardzija and Hammel have been traded ?

These fans are like my older sister: "OMG, they just started winning and traded away their best players." WHAT?

Oh, wait. You wanted to scrap the rebuilding based on a sweep of the Red Sox? Oh, OK. Smart!

Keep up the great work, Theo. Not all fans "get it", but those of us who do - along with every single expert / analyst out there - see you are stocking the system with prospects for long term success. This is something the organization hasn't done in our lifetimes, so many here can't comprehend. But those of us who know how the cardinals do it, realize you're doing it the right way.
 

brett05

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These fans are like my older sister: "OMG, they just started winning and traded away their best players." WHAT?

Oh, wait. You wanted to scrap the rebuilding based on a sweep of the Red Sox? Oh, OK. Smart!

Keep up the great work, Theo. Not all fans "get it", but those of us who do - along with every single expert / analyst out there - see you are stocking the system with prospects for long term success. This is something the organization hasn't done in our lifetimes, so many here can't comprehend. But those of us who know how the cardinals do it, realize you're doing it the right way.
Link to the experts?

As stated many times and shown this is NOT how the Cards do it.
 

beckdawg

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The timeline has passed

I'm not sure it has if you're talking about the draft part. I can't remember if it's based on the time of the draft or the time they sign. Either way, you're probably talking about knowing before August. That being said, it's probable the PTBNL if there is one will be known within the next week or so
 

WindyCity

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The experts seem to really like the deal for the Cubs.

Despite winning a few games, and still being last place, the right move was to move Shark for as much talent as possible.

If you are going to rebuild, rebuild, don't go half way.
 

SilenceS

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Timelines dictate massive Cubs-A's deal
By Keith Law | ESPN.com

The A's have added a huge injection of both quality and depth into their rotation, but it does come at a cost -- their last two first-round picks, both excellent prospects right now, who will boost a Cubs system that was already among the top five in baseball. In a significant deal, both sides add impact, with different timelines in mind.

Jeff Samardzija has gone from DFA candidate after 2011 to mid-rotation starter in 2012. Now, he's throwing like a front-of-the-rotation starter, and he'll hit his 30s with less mileage on his arm than almost every other No. 1 starter to reach that milestone. Before the 2012 season, he simplified his delivery and tightened up his slider while also beginning to work more to the lower third of the zone with his fastball, though it was really the slider's development into a bona fide out pitch that helped him become an above-average major league starter. This year, he's been locating the fastball more consistently (with a career-best ground ball rate of 52.5 percent) and has shown better life on the pitch without losing velocity. He has the size and delivery to hold up for 220 innings a year, and he's probably worth two to two and a half wins to the A's for the rest of this year, with the potential for a 5-WAR season next year before he heads off into $20 million-a-year free agency.

Hammel has pitched nearly as well as Shark this year, though he doesn't have the same ceiling or long-term outlook and is essentially just a two-month rental. He's returned to the form he showed in 2012 for Baltimore, but he's using the two-seamer even more this year, is having more success with it and has also gained effectiveness on the four-seamer because hitters aren't certain which way the ball is going to move. For Oakland, he probably replaces Tom Milone in the short-term, but Jesse Chavez isn't going to be able to handle 200 innings after several years in relief and hasn't been as effective the second time around the league, so at some point I expect Hammel to take work from Chavez. It's a gain of a win over the rest of the year, maybe more if you figure Chavez was going to either lose most of his effectiveness or not hold up under the workload.

In exchange for the two starters -- about 50 starts from Samardzija and about 15 from Hammel -- the Cubs get one of the top prospects in baseball, along with another solid to above-average prospect and a back-end starter who's major-league ready. (There's a PTBNL heading to Chicago too, but my sources indicate he won't change the balance of the deal at all.)

If you look at it in pieces, you could pitch the deal as Addison Russell and Dan Straily for Samardzija, then Billy McKinney straight up for Jason Hammel, both of which are strong returns for the Cubs.

Russell is a top-five prospect in the game, a true shortstop with an advanced bat who shows good on-base skills and line-drive power, even though he's just 20 years old in Class AA. He has some of the best hands I've ever seen on a prospect, both as a fielder and at the plate. He slimmed down before his senior year of high school to prove to scouts that he could stay at shortstop, and he has the soft, quick hands for the position, as well as plenty of arm, though he needs refinement on his footwork to remain there. At the plate, he has a simple, fluid swing that produces hard line-drive contact and should eventually lead to 15 to 20 homers a year, if not more. His approach at the plate is already advanced and continues to improve; he came into July 4 with as many walks as strikeouts in his brief Double-A tenure, which was interrupted by a hamstring tear that cost him more than two months. He could still be ready for the major league club next spring, though a return engagement in the Arizona Fall League to make up for the lost at-bats would help significantly. In the long term, he's a potential All-Star at shortstop who posts high OBPs with the aforementioned power and above-average defense.

The Cubs are quite loaded in the infield, with Javier Baez currently playing short in Triple-A, natural shortstop Arismendy Alcantara playing second and former shortstop Kris Bryant at third. Russell is the best shortstop of the entire group, so his arrival could hasten a chain of position switches with Baez going to third and Bryant to right field. It also could put Starlin Castro, who is showing signs of life with the bat again, on the trade block in the next 12 months, depending on Russell's health and progress in the minors.

McKinney's superficial stats this year don't tell a great story about his skill set, in part because he's 19 years old and in Class A. He is taking the same express route that Russell took the previous year, from the draft one June to the California League 10 months later. McKinney is a pure left fielder with a pretty, left-handed swing that he can repeat well and that has good loft in its finish. He loads his hands a little too high and deep, though his hand acceleration is so good that he can get the barrel to the zone in time to make contact. Cutting that load slightly might produce better results when he puts the ball in play. Despite being the Cal League's second-youngest regular, he's making a lot of contact and showing power and patience, though a recent shift to get him more aggressive earlier in the count has cut down on his walks. He projects as an above-average regular in left, even if his defense is just neutral there; I think he has the instincts to end up an asset there with the glove.

Straily is more than a throw-in, even though he's been just replacement level for the A's in 38 innings this year. He boasts a four-pitch mix led by an above-average slider but has a fringy fastball. He doesn't have the command to succeed with this arsenal yet, because the slider, while sharp, isn't a great chase pitch, and he has to rely on missing bats in the zone -- a trick that requires more precise location than he's shown so far. He has four years of control remaining after this season and will be cheap for the next two, at least, which makes him a valuable asset for the Cubs as much because of cost as because of performance, as they'll need some rotation depth and don't have cheap, major league ready starters in their high minors right now.

Overall, the trade seems to make sense for both sides because the two clubs are at such different spots in the success cycle. The A's are in win-now mode and have just gone all-in while also deleting from the trade market two starting pitchers, potential targets for their rivals in the AL playoff race. The Cubs are still building, weren't able to sign Samardzija to an extension with which they felt comfortable and were able to add one of the best prospects in all of baseball -- plus two other pieces.

If the A's win the World Series with Samardzija and Hammel, I'm sure they'll be able to live with watching Russell make All-Star teams for the Cubs while McKinney nails down left field.

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/kei...nes-dictate-massive-cubs-as-deal?refresh=true
 

beckdawg

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The experts seem to really like the deal for the Cubs.

Despite winning a few games, and still being last place, the right move was to move Shark for as much talent as possible.

If you are going to rebuild, rebuild, don't go half way.

I'm curious to see how Shark responds for the A's. He's not been all that pretty in June(5.45 ERA). He was great to start last year too 3.35/2.31 in April and May but then went 4.20, 5.28, 5.54, 5.58 the final four months. Some have suggested it was frustration with losing. If he goes out and does that down the stretch this trade is going to look significantly different.
 

SilenceS

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Its pretty obvious that out of Castro, Russell, or Baez. One of them is going to be traded for pitching at some point. They could keep all 3 and move Alcantara to super sub thats a good bit of people are suggesting.
 

TL1961

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I am hoping for far more from Alcantara than "super sub status".
 

TL1961

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Link to the experts?

As stated many times and shown this is NOT how the Cards do it.

I am not saying the Cards tank seasons to acquire these prospects. But the Cubs needed to in order to stock the farm.

But the way the Cards do it is to bring up top prospects from a deep farm system. As opposed to teams who try to constantly patch too many holes with FA's. Which is what the Cubs have tried for years.
 

SilenceS

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I am hoping for far more from Alcantara than "super sub status".

A super sub is extremely valuable to teams now. If he can play three positions, he is more valuable to a team then if he can just play one. A super sub still get 500 bats a season.
 

beckdawg

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Its pretty obvious that out of Castro, Russell, or Baez. One of them is going to be traded for pitching at some point. They could keep all 3 and move Alcantara to super sub thats a good bit of people are suggesting.

IMO it has to be Baez/Castro assuming Russell isn't a total bust. I said this else where but if Castro or Baez is "your guy" going forward at SS you likely don't make this sort of deal. I know I've said a lot about Castro and potential trades but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if they ended up trading Baez. My previous thoughts were "well you aren't trading a top 10 prospect." But with the addition of a different top 10 prospect who plays the left side of the infield maybe that changes. It's possible if they like Castro more than Baez you could move Castro over to 3B which would help him defensively and slot in Russell at SS. It's possible they worry about Baez's k rate going forward and use some of the lure of his top 10 status to deal him if they are worried about him long term.

I really don't see a SS - Russell, 3B - Castro, 2B - Baez look being that likely though I suppose it's also possible. And assuming Russell isn't a total bust he's almost assuredly the best defensive SS they have. I'm trying to keep an open mind but I've had the opinion for awhile now that they will let the prospects mature and trade Castro away when he starts getting a bit more pricey for pitching likely. So, to see them make this sort of move for a SS feels like they are taking a step in that direction. Additionally, both Castro and Baez were Hendry guys. As such, there may be part of their game that this front office doesn't like as much.

But we shall see.

Oh one other thing. In reference to Baez, I posted an article about McLeod and in it he said that when he was with the Padres that they weren't prepared to draft him if the cubs had passed. He said thankfully the cubs did and all that you would expect but it does make you wonder if he's not the kind of player they are looking for long term. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing but it just occurred to me.
 

SilenceS

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Russel has the higher floor and Baez has more potential. As for who gets traded, it will probably depend on who the team wants out of them. I dont see anyway they could tell a team one of them is off limits.
 

SilenceS

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MLB has Russell as our third best prospect behind Bryant and Baez.
 

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Timelines dictate massive Cubs-A's deal
By Keith Law | ESPN.com
...
The Cubs are quite loaded in the infield, with Javier Baez currently playing short in Triple-A, natural shortstop Arismendy Alcantara playing second and former shortstop Kris Bryant at third. Russell is the best shortstop of the entire group, so his arrival could hasten a chain of position switches with Baez going to third and Bryant to right field. It also could put Starlin Castro, who is showing signs of life with the bat again, on the trade block in the next 12 months, depending on Russell's health and progress in the minors....
Obviously Law isn't up-to-date on the latest move with Alcantara getting some time in CF. I don't see them trading Castro away, but it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, if that's what they do.
 

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