Small Market Cubs?????

[patg006]

Are you willing to admit the costs of trying option 3 from day 1 of the Theo Epstein regime because that would mean no Kris Bryant at a bare minimum in the farm system now.

Right, because talent can't be found anywhere after the top 5....

You see it as missing out on a promising prospect who is tearing it up right now in the fall/daytona league.

I see it as intentionally tanking seasons for a lottery ticket who has yet to see a major league pitch, and calling it the future while a steaming pile of shit is what is served on my plate when I decide to be a sadomasochist and watch the cubs on tv. But its ok, because in 3 years they will totally turn it around. Okay maybe four.

Nothing I can do but speculate, you too. But, since its following your/Theo's plan, not mine, I'd do it now, it couldn't hurt, and it would be less repulsive to watch. And they'll still have that precious #4 pick that will garner a better player than anything after 10.......because mid rounders can't pan out like a top pick can......ever.

Hey that Michael Wacha kid looks good. Where'd St. Louis find him on draft day?

 

[dabynsky]

Right, because talent can't be found anywhere after the top 5....

You see it as missing out on a promising prospect who is tearing it up right now in the fall/daytona league.

I see it as intentionally tanking seasons for a lottery ticket who has yet to see a major league pitch, and calling it the future while a steaming pile of shit is what is served on my plate when I decide to be a sadomasochist and watch the cubs on tv. But its ok, because in 3 years they will totally turn it around. Okay maybe four.

Nothing I can do but speculate, you too. But, since its following your/Theo's plan, not mine, I'd do it now, it couldn't hurt, and it would be less repulsive to watch. And they'll still have that precious #4 pick that will garner a better player than anything after 10.......because mid rounders can't pan out like a top pick can......ever.

Hey that Michael Wacha kid looks good. Where'd St. Louis find him on draft day?

So you still won't admit that fielding a middling team that plays as many postseason games as the Cubs have the past two seasons would have cost the Cubs talent in the system?

 

[CSF77]

60 wins = protected top 10 pick

80 wins = 15-20 unprotected pick

60 & 80 wins = no trip to the post season.

If it is not built to make a run to the play offs then looking at it 60 wins has more value than 80 wins to the team.

60 wins gives a better pick 80 gives a lesser pick.

60 wins given more cash to sign these picks than 80 wins do.

60 wins gives more international cap cash than 80 wins does.


It is that simple.

Surprised that some don't get that fact.

If the team is built to win then go for it.

If it is not then choke and win on development.

 

[Boobaby1]

So you still won't admit that fielding a middling team that plays as many postseason games as the Cubs have the past two seasons would have cost the Cubs talent in the system?

If Theo truly has hired the right personnel in the system to scout, draft, instruct and whatever, then no. It wouldn't matter where the Cubs fall in the draft. The Cubs have sucked for many, many years, and the farm has not produced.

The Cardinals have excelled for many years, and are still producing talent. Wacha 19th pick, Miller 19th pick, Kelly 3rd round, Lynn 39th pick, and Rosenthal 21st round.

That is the Cardinals youth in pitching and I am not including Maness, Siegrist and others. It's scouting and instruction

Even the Yankees are in the top ten as far as the minor league season and have never forfeited one single year at the parent level, and try year in and year out to win, win, win.

You can succeed as both aforementioned teams have done and you can go from one extreme of spending money, to another extreme of not overspending. That BOTH thing can be achieved, and trust me, Rickett's wouldn't go into the poor-house either way. opcorn:

 

[beckdawg]

I don't think you need to tank for picks. However, if you're not in position to make the playoffs there's not exactly a reason to spend. If you're going to, spend on guys like Soler, Puig, Ryu, Tanaka...etc. Don't spend on a 31 year old FA who will not be in his prime when you finally do get good. Bring out guys who you think you can flip for prospects.

Doing both of those things gets you a younger core of players. I really have no problem with what the cubs have done however, I wish they would have pushed a bit more for guys like Ryu and Darvish.

 

[dabynsky]

If Theo truly has hired the right personnel in the system to scout, draft, instruct and whatever, then no. It wouldn't matter where the Cubs fall in the draft. The Cubs have sucked for many, many years, and the farm has not produced.

The Cardinals have excelled for many years, and are still producing talent. Wacha 19th pick, Miller 19th pick, Kelly 3rd round, Lynn 39th pick, and Rosenthal 21st round.

That is the Cardinals youth in pitching and I am not including Maness, Siegrist and others. It's scouting and instruction

Even the Yankees are in the top ten as far as the minor league season and have never forfeited one single year at the parent level, and try year in and year out to win, win, win.

You can succeed as both aforementioned teams have done and you can go from one extreme of spending money, to another extreme of not overspending. That BOTH thing can be achieved, and trust me, Rickett's wouldn't go into the poor-house either way. opcorn:

Around and around we go. There is a cost to this plan of trying to patchwork a slightly more competitive team whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Kris Bryant would not be in the Cubs system right now if they had. Does "tanking", again look at the Houston Astros to see what tanking really looks like, make it worth it? We will find out in the next couple of seasons.

 

[patg006]

So you still won't admit that fielding a middling team that plays as many postseason games as the Cubs have the past two seasons would have cost the Cubs talent in the system?

What do you want me to say here?

That if the cubs did what I wanted all along we wouldn't see Kris Bryant in the system? Oh darn. Bryant, even if he is successful wont be the only success of the 1st round 2013 draft. We may have missed on Almora too, but we could have seen them draft Wacha or Appel. So what? You can find success in the draft after the top 5-6 picks. Do I get to rub it in that players like Wacha, Sale, Pedroia, CY Young to be Max Scherzer, Wainwright, Aaron Crow, Heyward, Bumgarner, and countless more continue to be successful?

And 'patchwork' player is a hell of a lot better that what we've been graced with watching. Nobody is saying spend big and only spend big while not getting anything out of the farm, something you still after a half of a year of me droning and droning, cannot grasp. There should be no reason as to why the Cubs cant be good while still having this pipeline of talent. And the rationale against my belief that you should do everything you can to win is that 'well if you're not gonna make it, why bother spending/trying?'

I expect the cubs to suck again, doing every possible thing they can to tank it for another top 5 pick; annoyingly so with still frustrating line ups that still fail to produce runs, but at least I expect the reds to join us shortly. I see an 85 win season this next year with a big mid-season acquisition and no playoffs followed by a tail spin to a rebuild. Pirates will be hard to forsee with them having a lot of talent unknown if they will pay to keep.

 

[Crystallas]

How about option 3:

Spend the right amount of money on players that will help the team and fix holes from years past, but don't put themselves in terrible contract situations. Nobody is saying sign Bobi Cano and Timmy Lincecum.

Still going to miss the playoffs. Because the "right amount" does not objectively exist.

Now all you kiddies that are pissed about the team making a smart decision. STOP CRYING.

THERE IS NO CRYING IN BASEBALL!

 

[CSF77]

I believe that after Baez is on the team they will have to stop adding to flip but add to support the new wave.

You run out Rizzo and Baez with Bryant close then you start to think of guys on base in front of them to generate runs. Maybe a LH power bat in the mix when Soler promotes etc. Right now the team lacks talent and lacks the ? To add via F/A.

 

[dabynsky]

What do you want me to say here?

That if the cubs did what I wanted all along we wouldn't see Kris Bryant in the system? Oh darn. Bryant, even if he is successful wont be the only success of the 1st round 2013 draft. We may have missed on Almora too, but we could have seen them draft Wacha or Appel. So what? You can find success in the draft after the top 5-6 picks. Do I get to rub it in that players like Wacha, Sale, Pedroia, CY Young to be Max Scherzer, Wainwright, Aaron Crow, Heyward, Bumgarner, and countless more continue to be successful?

And 'patchwork' player is a hell of a lot better that what we've been graced with watching. Nobody is saying spend big and only spend big while not getting anything out of the farm, something you still after a half of a year of me droning and droning, cannot grasp. There should be no reason as to why the Cubs cant be good while still having this pipeline of talent. And the rationale against my belief that you should do everything you can to win is that 'well if you're not gonna make it, why bother spending/trying?'

I expect the cubs to suck again, doing every possible thing they can to tank it for another top 5 pick; annoyingly so with still frustrating line ups that still fail to produce runs, but at least I expect the reds to join us shortly. I see an 85 win season this next year with a big mid-season acquisition and no playoffs followed by a tail spin to a rebuild. Pirates will be hard to forsee with them having a lot of talent unknown if they will pay to keep.

Oh I got it. What is frustrating is that you continue to ignore that your both plan both comes at a cost and ignores the reality that both the farm system and major league roster sucked ass when Theo Epstein took over. You continue to rattle off lists of players with all but one coming from drafts before the new CBA. The draft landscape has changed and while there are still opportunties to nab talent in the later rounds the earlier picks are worth vastly more. And have been shown to be worth vastly more in every empirical study of the subject.

So yes the Cubs could have put together a "better" product at the major league level, but to what end? Because the rosters that you and others have suggested aren't as good as the Cardinals or the Pirates or the Reds. And while they could have continued to outspend every team in baseball in acquiring amateurs while doing it there would have still been real costs to the farm systems that has gone from one of the worst to one of the best.

Which leads back to another point that I have raised continously and that is the focus on long term talent acquisiton phase needs to end, and that I am hoping that this offseason we start seeing a slight shift in where resources are put. Theo Epstein doesn't have a blank check to continuely trot out poor major league rosters, and with real impact talent actually close to the major leagues then you need to see some pieces added to the roster.

 

[chibears55]

Oh I got it. What is frustrating is that you continue to ignore that your both plan both comes at a cost and ignores the reality that both the farm system and major league roster sucked ass when Theo Epstein took over. You continue to rattle off lists of players with all but one coming from drafts before the new CBA. The draft landscape has changed and while there are still opportunties to nab talent in the later rounds the earlier picks are worth vastly more. And have been shown to be worth vastly more in every empirical study of the subject.

dont know why the back n forth continues with these posters....the agenda is to bitch n moan about all things cubs and management, no matter what they do.
funny how the census of the baseball people in and out of the game applaud what epstein has done with this team, yet we have a few supposed fans that refuses to accept and embrace the new ownership and management for trying to change a losing mentality on the northside by gutting out and changing the entire system from bottom up, which if you just open your eyes and take a good look they have done so from rookie ball to AAA in just 2 seasons... obviously now they need to start working on the major league level.

its easy to say sign this player and that player and just throw money at them and theyll come, but as we just seen with girardi its not always just about money for most of these guys..
funny how the few on here keep chirping do both do both do both ( FA n draft ), yet for the majority of the 2000s we only seen them do it one way ( FAs) and it got them no where and i know none of you were complaining then...
epstein n company have just been here 2 years, they established a top farm system.. how about we give them a chance now to do both, as im sure in these next 2 off seasons they start to implement their roster and establish more of a core going forward by using their best talent in their system and bringing in via trade and FAs the best available needed players to fill out their roster..

 

[CSF77]

Team could have Castro, Rizzo, Baez, Szczur, Alcantria on it by Aug. Soler and Bryant right there if not on the team themselves concidering how advanced they were when they were drafted. Almora has looked very advanced so far and seeing his production in the AFL vs talent slated to AA May polevault him into Tenn next year.

I love what the farm has become and believe long term it is the right direction to go.

 

[daddies3angels]

I don't think you need to tank for picks. However, if you're not in position to make the playoffs there's not exactly a reason to spend. If you're going to, spend on guys like Soler, Puig, Ryu, Tanaka...etc. Don't spend on a 31 year old FA who will not be in his prime when you finally do get good. Bring out guys who you think you can flip for prospects.

Doing both of those things gets you a younger core of players. I really have no problem with what the cubs have done however, I wish they would have pushed a bit more for guys like Ryu and Darvish.

Thats the problem. They didnt even spend on the so called guys in their prime. Ricketts DID NOT ALLOW Theo to sign guys that should have been signed

 

[The Bandit]

Right, because talent can't be found anywhere after the top 5....

You see it as missing out on a promising prospect who is tearing it up right now in the fall/daytona league.

I see it as intentionally tanking seasons for a lottery ticket who has yet to see a major league pitch, and calling it the future while a steaming pile of shit is what is served on my plate when I decide to be a sadomasochist and watch the cubs on tv. But its ok, because in 3 years they will totally turn it around. Okay maybe four.

Nothing I can do but speculate, you too. But, since its following your/Theo's plan, not mine, I'd do it now, it couldn't hurt, and it would be less repulsive to watch. And they'll still have that precious #4 pick that will garner a better player than anything after 10.......because mid rounders can't pan out like a top pick can......ever.

Hey that Michael Wacha kid looks good. Where'd St. Louis find him on draft day?

I actually randomly looked at the first round of the MLB draft dating back to 2000, plus notables from the rest of the draft... quite a bit of All-stars and damn good players taken in the top 10 compared to the rest of the first round. Just what I noticed though.. I could be wrong... I was kind of distracted by all the Cubs picks.... fucking Christ.

 

[Chris J]

I think you guys are over looking the importance of player development here. There is so much depth in MLB drafts compared ot NFL and NBA. You just have to have good scouts and good player development.

Why do the Cardinals continually produce major league players without having a high pick? Because of scouting and player development. Thats all it boils down too. Why hasnt the Royals high draft picks really come to turn out like they hoped? Because they arent an elite organization. The Cardinals have some of the best scouts and coaches to develop draft picks into major league players.

I believe that like the Cardinals, the Cubs have to right people in place now. It just takes time. Yes I have no problem with two terrible years to get a very high draft pick. But I think that part of the rebuilding process is over. The Cubs have a stockpile of hitting in the minors. I look for them to start to push towards a .500 record and get a pick in the early teens.

 

[nwfisch]

I think you guys are over looking the importance of player development here. There is so much depth in MLB drafts compared ot NFL and NBA. You just have to have good scouts and good player development.

Why do the Cardinals continually produce major league players without having a high pick? Because of scouting and player development. Thats all it boils down too. Why hasnt the Royals high draft picks really come to turn out like they hoped? Because they arent an elite organization. The Cardinals have some of the best scouts and coaches to develop draft picks into major league players.

I believe that like the Cardinals, the Cubs have to right people in place now. It just takes time. Yes I have no problem with two terrible years to get a very high draft pick. But I think that part of the rebuilding process is over. The Cubs have a stockpile of hitting in the minors. I look for them to start to push towards a .500 record and get a pick in the early teens.

And that's exactly why people aren't happy with throwing away seasons at the MLB level.

 

[CSF77]

And that's exactly why people aren't happy with throwing away seasons at the MLB level.

But still if in 3 years Almora is pushing 200 hits per and Bryant is mashing 40-50 HR's are you going to hate still?

 

[Boobaby1]

But still if in 3 years Almora is pushing 200 hits per and Bryant is mashing 40-50 HR's are you going to hate still?

Is Castro still a head case and Barney still on the team? opcorn:

 

[CSF77]

Is Castro still a head case and Barney still on the team? opcorn:

Barney is the ball boy. Figure a good glove a a redeeming quality for retrieving foul balls.

 

[Chris J]

Yes but the Cubs farm system was terrible when Theo first took over. They didnt have depth in either hitting or pitching. Tanking gave them more money to spend through all rounds allowing them to stockpile.

Now we three drafts(1 upcoming in 2014) to stockpile talent and have a larger pool, I'd expect the Cubs to stop tanking.