Soriano's power drop a concern?

[Rice Cube]

Wilson does, however, have fielding independent peripherals similar to Dempster and Garza, so he's no slouch. I wouldn't mind that pickup. I just don't think the Cubs can contend unless they buy up a lot more than just Fielder and whatever pitcher is around.

 

[dabynsky]

NO I don't know who C.J. Wilson is. Yes I know who he is. He is not an ace. He is not going to drastically change the face of the franchise. He is not going to sell tickets.

You know what woudl drastically change the face of the franchise? Winning. You know what would sell tickets? Winning. You have yet to raise a single point of how adding Fielder instead of Wilson would add more wins to this team.

 

[dabynsky]

I can appreciate a plan like that, but I'd rather have a "Yankees build a badass team" plan than a "spackle here and superglue there" plan. I feel like you need to build a team where the rotation can pick up the lineup one day and the lineup can reciprocate another day, but 50% of the time, both sides dominate and blow out the other team

I don't mean to pick on you here Rice Cube but I was just glancing at the Yankees roster. Isn't their starting rotation the definition of patch work? They go out and sign guys like Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon, and they luck into them having great performances out of nowhere. The Yankees for all their payroll still have a team that required some luck with some superglue and spackle. Please don't misunderstand my point here as to say that the Cubs are close to winning with this roster, but I just thought it was interesting that the two options are actually closer than we think.

 

[Chris J]

Prince Fielder can obviously help the team. Put him in the cleanup spot behind Ramirez in front of Byrd. What will Fielder do for the team? Hit 35 or more home runs and drive in 90 or more RBIs. It is clear this would help the team score runs. It would also help Ramirez see more pitches. Signing Fielder will give other players a sense of confidence. Having a RBI machine in the lineup helps a lot. As Brenly always says "Hitting is contagious".

If you want to add some of these starters you need a good team. You don't see good pitchers wanting to go play for the Pirates or the Astros. Pitchers want to play on teams with good run support. Fielder brings that run support.

And if you don't know Fielder is very well known as a leader. He would be a good presence in the clubhouse for young guys such as Castro and Jackson. Prince would change a lot for the Cubs organization.

Matt Garza is clearly a great pitcher for the Cubs. I know there is injury doubt but Cashner can be a good starter.

And o be the way Fielder has the chance to make a big impact on a game every night, Wilson can every five days. Fielder changes the Cubs organization and the atmosphere of the organization. He brings a sense of hope.

What does Wilson bring? A just "good" mid to upper 3 ERA. Maybe 12 or 13 wins. What else?

 

[Rice Cube]

I don't mean to pick on you here Rice Cube but I was just glancing at the Yankees roster. Isn't their starting rotation the definition of patch work? They go out and sign guys like Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon, and they luck into them having great performances out of nowhere. The Yankees for all their payroll still have a team that required some luck with some superglue and spackle. Please don't misunderstand my point here as to say that the Cubs are close to winning with this roster, but I just thought it was interesting that the two options are actually closer than we think.

No problem. The difference is that their lineup can produce more runs than their patchwork rotation gives up. Garcia and Colon also used to be good or at least serviceable. With the Yankees they can afford a few mistakes here or there because of their lineup...with their resources they get the first pick of the scrap heap. The Cubs get the leftovers. Yankees snag Colon and Garcia. Cubs get stuck with Wellemeyer, Looper, Doug Davis, Dave Bush, Ramon Ortiz and Rodrigo Lopez. You might even say that the Yankees are just luckier and better at patching together a team than the Cubs are

 

[dabynsky]

No problem. The difference is that their lineup can produce more runs than their patchwork rotation gives up. Garcia and Colon also used to be good or at least serviceable. With the Yankees they can afford a few mistakes here or there because of their lineup...with their resources they get the first pick of the scrap heap. The Cubs get the leftovers. Yankees snag Colon and Garcia. Cubs get stuck with Wellemeyer, Looper, Doug Davis, Dave Bush, Ramon Ortiz and Rodrigo Lopez. You might even say that the Yankees are just luckier and better at patching together a team than the Cubs are

Okay but is the team that just won the World Series an example of how a team with a great rotation can overcome a patchwork lineup. I can think of many examples of teams with subpar lineups doing quite well and even winning it all if their pitching is good enough. Hell we got to within 5 outs of the World Series using that formula. Having a below average lineup isn't ideal, but lets not act like it dooms us to being uncompetitive.

 

[Chris J]

Look at the Red Sox. They don't have good pitching but their offense wins them games. Correct?

 

[Rice Cube]

Okay but is the team that just won the World Series an example of how a team with a great rotation can overcome a patchwork lineup. I can think of many examples of teams with subpar lineups doing quite well and even winning it all if their pitching is good enough. Hell we got to within 5 outs of the World Series using that formula. Having a below average lineup isn't ideal, but lets not act like it dooms us to being uncompetitive.

There's a difference between hoping for luck to strike closer to the postseason when you only need to win 3 of 5 or 4 of 7, than hoping for luck to get you the division/wild card over the course of 162 games. What the Giants did was ridiculously lucky, as taboo as that word is. And I'm a Giants fan. The fact that they had Lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner also helped a lot. Not only do they not suck at pitching, they also have decent defense, which helps a lot in terms of preventing runs.

What about this Cubs team makes you think they are good at preventing runs? I'm cool with hope and unicorns, but the Cubs' situation is a far cry away from the Giants'...

 

[dabynsky]

Prince Fielder can obviously help the team. Put him in the cleanup spot behind Ramirez in front of Byrd. What will Fielder do for the team? Hit 35 or more home runs and drive in 90 or more RBIs. It is clear this would help the team score runs. It would also help Ramirez see more pitches. Signing Fielder will give other players a sense of confidence. Having a RBI machine in the lineup helps a lot. As Brenly always says "Hitting is contagious".

If you want to add some of these starters you need a good team. You don't see good pitchers wanting to go play for the Pirates or the Astros. Pitchers want to play on teams with good run support. Fielder brings that run support.

And if you don't know Fielder is very well known as a leader. He would be a good presence in the clubhouse for young guys such as Castro and Jackson. Prince would change a lot for the Cubs organization.

Matt Garza is clearly a great pitcher for the Cubs. I know there is injury doubt but Cashner can be a good starter.

And o be the way Fielder has the chance to make a big impact on a game every night, Wilson can every five days. Fielder changes the Cubs organization and the atmosphere of the organization. He brings a sense of hope.

What does Wilson bring? A just "good" mid to upper 3 ERA. Maybe 12 or 13 wins. What else?

Wilson's impact is a trickle down effect on enitre the pitching staff. First off he went 15-8 (record is a terrible measure of a pitcher by the way) with a 3.35 ERA. This year he has a 3.38 ERA. Math might not be my strong suit but I think 3.38 is below that mid to upper category. He also is top 10 in the AL in strikeouts and innings pitched. Adding him decreases the number of innings the bullpen has to pitch which makes them better. Also having Wilson slots each starter down a spot. It leaves Cashner in AAA so his innings can be monitored closely and gives us actual depth for when an injury happens. Now instead of having to hope that Cashner comes back strong enough to handle a full season he can be handled carefully to build him up to a starters workload. Casey Coleman is now the 3rd or 4th option instead of the first.

Fielder is an elite level offensive player, but he is just one spot in the lineup. With a subpar pitching staff behind him the increase in offense between him and Pena won't mean much. And lets not neglect defense here as well. Our homegrown franchise player is erractic, to say the least, on throws. Fielder isn't exactly amazing with the glove either.

 

[dabynsky]

There's a difference between hoping for luck to strike closer to the postseason when you only need to win 3 of 5 or 4 of 7, than hoping for luck to get you the division/wild card over the course of 162 games. What the Giants did was ridiculously lucky, as taboo as that word is. And I'm a Giants fan. The fact that they had Lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner also helped a lot. Not only do they not suck at pitching, they also have decent defense, which helps a lot in terms of preventing runs.

What about this Cubs team makes you think they are good at preventing runs? I'm cool with hope and unicorns, but the Cubs' situation is a far cry away from the Giants'...

You seem to be missing the point of the argument. The argument is what one player would do the most to help the Cubs. Clearly the Cubs aren't one player away, but they can improve their team for next season and beyond. They might get lucky next year, but making moves like Wilson doesn't prevent them from continuing to develop young players either. Money spent wisely this season combined with the next offseason can put this team in a position to win though.

 

[Chris J]

But you're failing to release that the organization needs something big. I just think it's hilarious that you would rather have C.J Wilson than Prince Fielder. Your'e killing me smalls.

 

[dabynsky]

So you would rather go into next year with this pitching staff. Counting on the same guys to stay healthy that couldn't. Just because you want the big name player.

I love Fielder by the way, and think he is an amazing player. I just don't know how anyone can look at the numbers and come to any other conclusion that our pitching needs massive improvements for us to do anything. Wilson is the best option likely available (I am assuming the Yankees will do everything to keep Sabathia).

 

[Rice Cube]

You seem to be missing the point of the argument. The argument is what one player would do the most to help the Cubs. Clearly the Cubs aren't one player away, but they can improve their team for next season and beyond. They might get lucky next year, but making moves like Wilson doesn't prevent them from continuing to develop young players either. Money spent wisely this season combined with the next offseason can put this team in a position to win though.

I think the argument kept fluctuating so I lost track (don't read every post) :lol:

But I agree that CJ Wilson would be a relatively inexpensive addition and would help eat innings. I'd prefer the Cubs spent no money except in the draft and scouting in the Caribbean and Latin America, but we all know that's a pipe dream.

 

[Chris J]

I don't know what to tell you Dabs. Yes, Wilson is a pretty good pitcher, is it worth the risk though to not sign Fielder and then have Wilson sign with the Red Sox or Yankees?

 

[dabynsky]

I think the argument kept fluctuating so I lost track (don't read every post) :lol:

But I agree that CJ Wilson would be a relatively inexpensive addition and would help eat innings. I'd prefer the Cubs spent no money except in the draft and scouting in the Caribbean and Latin America, but we all know that's a pipe dream.

I've argued that it is possible with major additions for this team to be competitve next season. Whether those additions are possible due to budget is unknown at this point. The only point I was trying to make is that some people think that the Cubs need to build the best lineup possible because for so many years that was what was holding back the team (again not saying it is good now). I just think this year shows exactly how important pitching is, and that has to be priority number 1.

I don't understand the preference to that option to be honest. I mean I want the Cubs to be smart with the payroll, but why not add guys that fill holes that can't be filled internally. No one close to major league level is going to be a front of the rotation starter. No one within a few years is going to be a corner infield/middle of the order bat. Why not buy those positions if you have the resources?

 

[Chris J]

Wouldn't be amazing if somebody took Soriano right now

 

[Rice Cube]

I've argued that it is possible with major additions for this team to be competitve next season. Whether those additions are possible due to budget is unknown at this point. The only point I was trying to make is that some people think that the Cubs need to build the best lineup possible because for so many years that was what was holding back the team (again not saying it is good now). I just think this year shows exactly how important pitching is, and that has to be priority number 1.

I don't understand the preference to that option to be honest. I mean I want the Cubs to be smart with the payroll, but why not add guys that fill holes that can't be filled internally. No one close to major league level is going to be a front of the rotation starter. No one within a few years is going to be a corner infield/middle of the order bat. Why not buy those positions if you have the resources?

I agree with the first bolded part. I think that's contingent on how much spare change they can dig out of their couch cushions, but it can be done.

As for the second bolded part, the reason I say no is because I don't think a stopgap plan is necessarily smart for a team that, if they don't go all in, would just be a half-assed contender again anyway. But that's probably what they'll end up doing.

 

[dabynsky]

Okay but how is investing in big time pieces that you can't fill internal half-assing it. This team has a lot of bad paper coming off the books in the next few years and if spent wisely combined with the focus on the farm could net a really strong team. I guess I just don't see how going after guys like Wilson or Fielder hurts this team.

 

[dabynsky]

Wouldn't be amazing if somebody took Soriano right now

That would be hitting the jackpot. Though to be honest I think a Colvin/Soriano platoon in left could be productive. It isn't ideal by any means, but Soriano is still pounding lefties. If Colvin can hit anywhere close to his rookie year, that would actually be an upgrade in left without spending any money.

 

[Rice Cube]

Okay but how is investing in big time pieces that you can't fill internal half-assing it. This team has a lot of bad paper coming off the books in the next few years and if spent wisely combined with the focus on the farm could net a really strong team. I guess I just don't see how going after guys like Wilson or Fielder hurts this team.

I think they will anyway. Whatever, it's not my money :lol: They can probably do this smartly to be halfway respectable in 2012 and compete by 2013. That assumes they have a plan.