Sources: Cubs pursuing Pujols, Fielder

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waldo7239117

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Yeah, plus Feliz could end up being really good as a starter. Also, the Rangers have a good bullpen. The Angels have a better starting rotation on paper but that remains to be seen.

Yeah, Feliz was a good closer... they hope the change would be the same. Their closer will be Joe Nathan and that ain't bad. Nathan has declined, but I still like him and I expect him to be effective.
 

Rice Cube

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Let's try to guesstimate how much Prince Fielder would be worth...

Prince Fielder Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Prince Fielder

I'm doing this in terms of wins, and if I had to make a guess I would expect Fielder to be at least a 5 win player in 2012, his age 28 season (he turns 28 in May). So let's take a hypothetical age curve without all kinds of fancy integrals and other random shit and pretend he loses half a win of production each season. This will include his crappy baserunning and defense as well, but his offense should outperform those.

Year (age) win total

2012 (28) 5
2013 (29) 4.5
2014 (30) 4
2015 (31) 3.5
2016 (32) 3
2017 (33) 2.5
2018 (34) 2

A seven-year deal takes him to his age 34 season which most Cubs fans and Theo are probably okay with. That crude simulation suggests Fielder can deliver 24.5 wins, so the Cubs will pay him for those and hope that he produces more. At an average of about $5MM per win, that is about $122.5MM for the seven years. If we factor in inflation and cost of living and other crap it probably balloons to about $150MM or so, or about $21MM per year. Throw in a vesting option or two if he's badass and we might look at a potential 8 year/$170MM contract or 9 year/$190MM contract, give or take a few million. Maybe throw in an opt-out clause around his age 31 season to snag a discount during the front end of the deal.

Everybody comfortable with the Cubs investing $21MM guaranteed in Prince Fielder over 7 years at the minimum?
 

Lex L.

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Let's try to guesstimate how much Prince Fielder would be worth...

Prince Fielder Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

Prince Fielder

I'm doing this in terms of wins, and if I had to make a guess I would expect Fielder to be at least a 5 win player in 2012, his age 28 season (he turns 28 in May). So let's take a hypothetical age curve without all kinds of fancy integrals and other random shit and pretend he loses half a win of production each season. This will include his crappy baserunning and defense as well, but his offense should outperform those.

Year (age) win total

2012 (28) 5
2013 (29) 4.5
2014 (30) 4
2015 (31) 3.5
2016 (32) 3
2017 (33) 2.5
2018 (34) 2

A seven-year deal takes him to his age 34 season which most Cubs fans and Theo are probably okay with. That crude simulation suggests Fielder can deliver 24.5 wins, so the Cubs will pay him for those and hope that he produces more. At an average of about $5MM per win, that is about $122.5MM for the seven years. If we factor in inflation and cost of living and other crap it probably balloons to about $150MM or so, or about $21MM per year. Throw in a vesting option or two if he's badass and we might look at a potential 8 year/$170MM contract or 9 year/$190MM contract, give or take a few million. Maybe throw in an opt-out clause around his age 31 season to snag a discount during the front end of the deal.

Everybody comfortable with the Cubs investing $21MM guaranteed in Prince Fielder over 7 years at the minimum?

Yeah, and its partly because I don't value this analysis. I'd actually be willing to pay him more.
 
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Rice Cube

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Yeah, and its partly because I don't value this analysis.

That's fine, it's a very crude analysis but I imagine the Cubs do something with their version of Carmine they are going to build to analyze how much they are willing to throw at Fielder.
 

Rice Cube

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This is a much more thoughtful analysis than the one I just whipped up in five minutes.

What is Prince Fielder Worth?

One of the commenters does have a good point that a couple of the comparables (i.e. Justin Morneau) had injury issues that skew the analysis. For the most part though I think the prognosis for Fielder aging gracefully is not good, despite the fact that he's been very durable for the past several seasons. That's probably the major factor that's holding up the big truckload of money that is going to be dumped on his doorstep, but chances are that Theo does it anyway because there's no other elite slugger available and the Cubs have to sell tickets somehow.
 

Lex L.

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That's fine, it's a very crude analysis but I imagine the Cubs do something with their version of Carmine they are going to build to analyze how much they are willing to throw at Fielder.

Well, I'm not so sure this is strictly and analytical exercise in terms of statistical correlations. But moreover, they cant look at it in a narrow sense. They also have to consider how much Fielder can accelerate the timeline in helping the franchise be prominent.

I don't think pitches per at bat is an actual stat, at least it's not one that's commonly tracked. The best you can do is to look and see how much a guy walks and make the inference that he sees a lot of pitches, which Prince does.

I don't know how many people have been paying attention to this but plate discipline has already factored itself into the offseason moves to the extent that we're actually dumping players who are clearly poor at it in exchange for players who are better at it.

Another thing that Theo has openly said, and has nothing to do with statistical analysis, is that you're "lucky" if you hit on two of your draf picks in any year. So, there's an open acknowledgment that trying to do this without free agency is an uphill climb. When you combine that with the fact that there is no FA substitute for someone like Prince in the foreseeable future, it becomes extremely difficult to argue against putting a premium on signing Prince, even if you have to pay beyond what your myopic analysis justitifies.

And notice how in none of the above, did I address the aspect of fanbase goodwill. There are a lot of people like Angels who questions the organization and have stopped going to games because they feel there's a lack of commitment or a general feeling that the FO has taken the fanbase for granted. I initially avoided mentioning this because I can't honestly say if Theo is factoring this in.

So basically, there are a lot of things to consider and that's on top of poking holes in the statistical analysis.
 

brett05

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Seriously I thought I missed something. Lol
 

Rice Cube

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Yeah, there's no way they're letting Mitch Moreland be their everyday 1B. They'd sooner make Napoli the 1B than Moreland, but I think they'd want to keep Napoli at C for the time being to keep their lineup as offensively charged as possible. I don't think Pujols makes the Angels lineup better than the Rangers' overall, however, and I don't think the Rangers will panic and overpay for Fielder.

If Fielder is overpaid it'll be by a team who has a smart GM, or it'll be because Theo and Jed decided that they need Prince Fielder. So far we have no idea what it is they want for the Cubs.

Good call Brett05. I meant that a severe overpay would be done by a team who didn't have a smart GM. That's a derp moment.

:nelson::obama:
 

Lex L.

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Another thing that's problematic is that there aren't a lot of guys with Fielder's body type. But it's also not like he has a long looping swing. He has a fairly compact stroke and that makes me think his bat speed may not drop off as much as an average aging player.

And not to be crude but he's so thick that the pounding isnt necessarily being absorbed all in his knees/ankles. It could be kind of similar to how pitchers with more girth can hold up over time better than guys like Pedro.

In general, I'm in favor of frontloading contracts though so you're paying for the years that you're expecting the most production.
 

Rice Cube

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Another thing that's problematic is that there aren't a lot of guys with Fielder's body type. But it's also not like he has a long looping swing. He has a fairly compact stroke and that makes me think his bat speed may not drop off as much as an average aging player.

And not to be crude but he's so thick that the pounding isnt necessarily being absorbed all in his knees/ankles. It could be kind of similar to how pitchers with more girth can hold up over time better than guys like Pedro.

I think Boras is going to play up his durability, and in that MLBTR blurb they did talk about his relatively short stature which would constrict the available strike zone for pitchers. I'm pretty sure Theo and Jed are going to look at that as well. I think the Cubs would be wise to try to get Fielder, but like many Cubs fans I also hope that they do not overpay. I think that's reasonable.
 

Rice Cube

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Fielder has been a small planetoid for his entire career and I doubt many things can injure him. He's held up very well and it wouldn't be a surprise if he continued to be durable.

funny.jpg


^ I guess that would've been funnier had they spelled right...
 

brett05

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In general, I'm in favor of frontloading contracts though so you're paying for the years that you're expecting the most production.

so for fielder what like 40 million for four years and then 10 million per year for another 3-6 years
 

brett05

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I think the Cubs would be wise to try to get Fielder, but like many Cubs fans I also hope that they do not overpay. I think that's reasonable.

You are rolling tonight Rice Cube. Lol. I find the fan part :)
 

Lex L.

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so for fielder what like 40 million for four years and then 10 million per year for another 3-6 years

Not 40 per year. Maybe like 25 and possibly a little more.

It's also not exclusively about Prince. It's also partly about how quickly you expect to fill out the roster with viable options.
 

Lex L.

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You are rolling tonight Rice Cube. Lol. I find the fan part :)

Except what you quoted was an inane comment since "overpaying" is arbitrarty and vague. It so arbitrary and vague that it has no meaning.
 
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