Steve Aschburner: Don't be so quick to trade for Howard

thechosenone

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 14, 2012
Posts:
3,421
Liked Posts:
698
Location:
Greece
Nobody said that these players you mention weren't big time players in their prime.The thing is that we are talking about NOW.

ps.I don't treat Rose like he's the god of the NBA.I just give him what he deserves.Right now DRose is a better player than Wade.You want to talk about careers?Wade has a better career than Rose.But this year?2012?Rose is better.Not so much more better but better.In everything.In clutch,in speed,in crossover,in finishing at the rim,in explosiveness,in leadership,in passing,in defense.If you watched the CHI-MIA game where DWade was guarding Rose and he was so exhausted he couldn't walk after the 20th minute of the game you can understand this easily.
 

thechosenone

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 14, 2012
Posts:
3,421
Liked Posts:
698
Location:
Greece
The perfect PG is:

Court Vision – Magic Johnson
Pick and Roll – John Stockton
Cross-Over – Tim Hardaway
Rebounding – Oscar Robertson
Defense – Gary Payton
Assists - John Stockton
Athleticism – Derrick Rose or Westbrook :D (coin flip)
Toughness – Derrick Rose
Shooting – Steve Nash
Heart – Derrick Rose
Clutch – Isiah Thomas
Competitive Edge – Derrick Rose
Longevity – Jason Kidd

And I am talking all times greatest and DRose is only 23.

Nowadays he has the deadliest crossover in the league,he is clutch as hell,he has won an MVP award and he can win a second this year in his 5th year in the NBA,he has the speed to be an elite defender if he works in that field.With Thibs as a head coach I am sure that this will be the upgrade for Rose in the next years.He is a pretty good defender right now but he has to start being more aggressive in the ball.His passing skills and court vision are NOT BAD.Nothing near Magic or Nash but he is good there.

So you have a potential all time best player in your team and you don't even give him what he deserves.I am the one who said that DRose wasn't ready to have a team on his shoulders last year.But what I see in this guy is being one level above last year,every year.I haven't seen a player having so great progress year by year in my life.
 
Last edited:

Glide2keva

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 28, 2010
Posts:
3,689
Liked Posts:
754
I'm too busy either writing an article or updating CCS's FB page with Bulls' statuses to give two shits about a game thread. Yet, I post in there occasionally anyway.
Rami that wasn't for you. I know you post in game threads. I see you. That was for hou, who never posts in game threads and the only time I saw him do so was the other day when he came in to defend lebron because someone dared to attack the king.

Wade hit 2 game-winners in a row this year. And he has throughout his entire career.
Heard on NBA TV that Rose is 3-3 in game winning shots this year, including the buzzer beater. Rose is clutch and up there with Wade IMO. Wade has a larger sample size due to playing longer, but Rose is piling up some good clutch shots and game winner in his own right. Give him some props.

Wade is better in the post. Wade is stronger and actually jumps at least as high as Rose and is slightly taller. Wade also has a deadly crossover.
Rose's crossover is better than Wade's.

Wade = more clutch than Rose.

Rose=getting up there.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
The perfect PG is:

Court Vision – Magic Johnson
Pick and Roll – John Stockton
Cross-Over – Tim Hardaway
Rebounding – Oscar Robertson
Defense – Gary Payton
Assists - John Stockton
Athleticism – Derrick Rose
Toughness – Derrick Rose
Shooting – Steve Nash
Heart – Derrick Rose
Clutch – Isiah Thomas
Competitive Edge – Derrick Rose
Longevity – Jason Kidd

And I am talking all times greatest and DRose is only 23.

Yeah, you are also talking out of your ass! You think Rose is the toughest and shows more heart than Isiah, who was the franchise player on 2 title teams...and is the only little man to win titles as the main cog? Seriously dude.

Saying stuff like this doesn't make you anymore a fan than anybody else, it just makes you look delusional.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
Rami that wasn't for you. I know you post in game threads.

Yeah, that is what happens when you do the whole subliminal thing and don't man up and name names. I don't have to prove shit to you. I don't have to post in game threads either. I do what I want to do...as I was doing before you showed up.

Plus, you asked me why I don't post in game threads and I answered your question. I should have told you "none of your got damn business"...that would have been appropriate when considering who asked the question.

All would be solved if you did what you've done in the past...and you asked everyone else to do...block me. Remember that? Remember your one man "everybody block houheffna" campaign?

Why don't you lead by example?
 

Glide2keva

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 28, 2010
Posts:
3,689
Liked Posts:
754
History says he does...this is why I asked some people who want to figure me out to learn the damn league! Don't look at me...look at history! Look at what has happened when Shaq, Moses, Kareem, Wilt....move to other teams. All were the best in the league arguably in their primes...all were champions.

What are you leaving out of this part of your argument?

Shaq signed as a free agent and was added to a young, but decent team that had Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and a rookie Kobe Bryant. The Lakers didn't have to give up anybody to add him to the team, thus they got way better.

Moses came to a team that had Dr. J., Mo Cheeks, etc. They got way better without giving up much.

Same with Kareem who was ALREADY a champion with Milwaukee and the Lakers later drafted Magic and Worthy and Scott. Again they didn't have to give up much to get him.

And Wilt came to a team where the 6th man in 72 (Happy Hairston) was scoring 24 plus points a game, and teamed with Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, etc. Again they didn't have to gut the squad to get him.

Also, it was a different league, under different CBA rules for free agent movement and players weren't making the huge salaries that they are now, so it was a lot easier to get star players to come to your team and the Lakers Took advantage of it.

Today, we would have to gut this team to match salaries, sacrifice this year and maybe next year also (oh wait, I forgot people will be lining up to come here with Rose and Howard). But we'll have a dynasty, while Miami is winning the title for the next tw to three years. But hey, we'll have Rose and Howard, eh?

Not all star Center/PG combos = automatic titles. Look at the Charlotte Hornets. That was a complete team if I ever saw one. Larry Johnson, Kendall Gill, Alonzo Mourning, Mugsy Bogues, Dell Curry, and a solid bench. Yet they went no where. Made the playoffs a couple of times and got bounced by the Bulls in 95. Mourning moved on to the Miami Heat and joined up with Tim Hardaway, Rony Seikely, Glen Rice, Steve Smith (I think) and a solid bench and they went nowhere.

What about the Chris Johnson (Mahmud Abdul Rauf), Mutumbo combo? They went nowhere. The Iverson/Mutumbo combo got to the Finals and lost in 5. Hell, what about the ANY PG they paired with Ewing combo? Yep, they lost each year too. The Penny/Shaq combo? Yep they lost also.

Wade and Shaq combo won, but they had GP playing point and Wade was the reason they won and Shaq's impact wasn't as big as it was with the Lakers. Hell, Shaq didn't even have a top tier PG when he won his titles. It was him and Kobe, much like it was him and Wade.

Nash and Amaré? Nowhere.

So history also says that it's no guarantee that it'll lead to automatic titles.
 

Glide2keva

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 28, 2010
Posts:
3,689
Liked Posts:
754
Yeah, that is what happens when you do the whole subliminal thing and don't man up and name names. I don't have to prove shit to you. I don't have to post in game threads either. I do what I want to do...as I was doing before you showed up.

Plus, you asked me why I don't post in game threads and I answered your question. I should have told you "none of your got damn business"...that would have been appropriate when considering who asked the question.

All would be solved if you did what you've done in the past...and you asked everyone else to do...block me. Remember that? Remember your one man "everybody block houheffna" campaign?

Why don't you lead by example?
I unblocked you because I just wasn't interested in arguing with you. I was trying to find a way to disagree with you without going to those extremes with you. I even said that to you. You just continued being an asshole and insulting me, even when I didn't insult you.

I still don't have any interest in arguing with you, yet you seem to want to argue with anybody that doesn't bow down to your opinion and claim you God of the internet.
 

thechosenone

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 14, 2012
Posts:
3,421
Liked Posts:
698
Location:
Greece
Seriously dude.DRose is the franchise player and he is about to win a title as the main cog.With the competition at its highest level.And of couse he is one of the toughest PGs of all time.If there is someone else near him it's only Iverson.Not Isiah for sure.
 
Last edited:

thechosenone

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 14, 2012
Posts:
3,421
Liked Posts:
698
Location:
Greece
History says that Penny and Shaq didn't won a championship and that basketball is a team sport.Of course superstars do the most things in the game but if you have superstars without good supporting cast you end up not winning something.

Having said that the Bulls have a GREAT supporting cast to support DRose and Howard.Even if they lose Noah,Deng and CJ Watson the rest of the team is more than enough to win 8 consecutive championships.I wouldn't give Deng but this is the worst case scenario.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
What are you leaving out of this part of your argument?

Shaq signed as a free agent and was added to a young, but decent team that had Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and a rookie Kobe Bryant. The Lakers didn't have to give up anybody to add him to the team, thus they got way better.

Moses came to a team that had Dr. J., Mo Cheeks, etc. They got way better without giving up much.

Same with Kareem who was ALREADY a champion with Milwaukee and the Lakers later drafted Magic and Worthy and Scott. Again they didn't have to give up much to get him.

And Wilt came to a team where the 6th man in 72 (Happy Hairston) was scoring 24 plus points a game, and teamed with Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, etc. Again they didn't have to gut the squad to get him.

Also, it was a different league, under different CBA rules for free agent movement and players weren't making the huge salaries that they are now, so it was a lot easier to get star players to come to your team and the Lakers Took advantage of it.

Today, we would have to gut this team to match salaries, sacrifice this year and maybe next year also (oh wait, I forgot people will be lining up to come here with Rose and Howard). But we'll have a dynasty, while Miami is winning the title for the next tw to three years. But hey, we'll have Rose and Howard, eh?

Not all star Center/PG combos = automatic titles. Look at the Charlotte Hornets. That was a complete team if I ever saw one. Larry Johnson, Kendall Gill, Alonzo Mourning, Mugsy Bogues, Dell Curry, and a solid bench. Yet they went no where. Made the playoffs a couple of times and got bounced by the Bulls in 95. Mourning moved on to the Miami Heat and joined up with Tim Hardaway, Rony Seikely, Glen Rice, Steve Smith (I think) and a solid bench and they went nowhere.

What about the Chris Johnson (Mahmud Abdul Rauf), Mutumbo combo? They went nowhere. The Iverson/Mutumbo combo got to the Finals and lost in 5. Hell, what about the ANY PG they paired with Ewing combo? Yep, they lost each year too. The Penny/Shaq combo? Yep they lost also.

Wade and Shaq combo won, but they had GP playing point and Wade was the reason they won and Shaq's impact wasn't as big as it was with the Lakers. Hell, Shaq didn't even have a top tier PG when he won his titles. It was him and Kobe, much like it was him and Wade.

Nash and Amaré? Nowhere.

So history also says that it's no guarantee that it'll lead to automatic titles.

I don't think giving up Noah, and draft picks is giving up much. You wouldn't trade Noah for Kareem? Probably not, would talk about how aloof Kareem was, and how his teammates didn't like him. Moses? Probably would talk about his lack of athleticism and how he didn't win much of anything in his career to that point. Shaq? Might talk about his wanting to be Hollywood more than wanting to be a great basketball player.

I am talking about Shaq/Kobe, Magic/Kareem,etc...you bring up Mugsy Bogues...you absolutely don't get it. You have to be kidding me.

Point blank...if you could trade Noah, Charlotte pick and Taj or Omer for Howard...would you do it?
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
Seriously dude.DRose is the franchise player and he is about to win a title as the main cog.With the competition at its highest level.And of couse he is one of the toughest PGs of all time.If there is someone else near him it's only Iverson.Not Isiah for sure.

LOL...my god! Are you serious? First the Bulls lost to the Heat because of Udonis Haslem, now you tell me Rose is tougher and has more heart than Isiah Thomas....spoken like a true hockey fan...
 

thechosenone

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 14, 2012
Posts:
3,421
Liked Posts:
698
Location:
Greece
I would do these moves in a heartbeat:

1)Noah,Taj,Charlotte pick,and Brewer or CJ Watson for Howard
2)Noah,Boozer for Howard

But anything more than that would be a very tough decision to make.

Of course if Howard doesn't want to come here I wouldn't beg.I wouldn't give Scalabrine for a guy who doesn't want to be a bull.
 

thechosenone

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 14, 2012
Posts:
3,421
Liked Posts:
698
Location:
Greece
LOL...my god! Are you serious? First the Bulls lost to the Heat because of Udonis Haslem, now you tell me Rose is tougher and has more heart than Isiah Thomas....spoken like a true hockey fan...

For guys like you basketball is played only by superstars.I hope LeBron,Wade and Bosh will score their average ppg this year like they did last year with everybody else in their team being dominated to see the Bulls win the series by 4-0.

Udonis Haslem the difference-maker for Heat in Game 2 win vs. Bulls - NBA - Sporting News
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
For guys like you basketball is played only by superstars.I hope LeBron,Wade and Bosh will score their average ppg this year like they did last year with everybody else in their team being dominated to see the Bulls win the series by 4-0.

Udonis Haslem the difference-maker for Heat in Game 2 win vs. Bulls - NBA - Sporting News

You said that the reason the Heat won the series was Haslem...then you put up an article...for game 2...of a 5 game series. Hilarious. You absolutely don't get it.
 

thechosenone

Well-known member
Joined:
Jan 14, 2012
Posts:
3,421
Liked Posts:
698
Location:
Greece
You said that the reason the Heat won the series was Haslem...then you put up an article...for game 2...of a 5 game series. Hilarious. You absolutely don't get it.

You absolutely don't get that making the difference doesn't mean he was the best player of his team or the series MVP.He was just the guy who changed the momentum in the series.He was the guy you didn't expect to play so good and kill you by his performance and his energy.AND GAME 2 = home court advantage dude.

The Bulls had won the first game by 20 points and were leading in the second game by 15+ until Haslem got in the court.Lebron did the damage after that but Haslem changed the momentum with his energy,with his points and with his rebounds.

If the Bulls were 2-0 in that game you will probably have a different winner in the series.They would have tons of pressure to win their home games.The Bulls could take advantage of that and beat them.Of course the key in a 7 game series is the games you break the home court advantage.
 
Last edited:

Glide2keva

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 28, 2010
Posts:
3,689
Liked Posts:
754
You absolutely don't get that making the difference doesn't mean he was the best player of his team or the series MVP.He was just the guy who changed the momentum in the series.He was the guy you didn't expect to play so good and kill you by his performance and his energy.AND GAME 2 = home court advantage dude.

The Bulls had won the first game by 20 points and were leading in the second game by 15+ until Haslem got in the court.Lebron did the damage after that but Haslem changed the momentum with his energy,with his points and with his rebounds.

If the Bulls were 2-0 in that game you will probably have a different winner in the series.They would have tons of pressure to win their home games.The Bulls could take advantage of that and beat them.Of course the key in a 7 game series is the games you break the home court advantage.
This.

The Heat got better and gained guys while the Bulls had guys hobbled (Noah & Boozer) and lost Asik while Miami gained Haslem and Miller.

And each of those game still came down to the last 2 minutes. There was not one blowout for Miami in the series. Not one all season and not one by these two teams as currently constructed.

People over rate Miami so much that it's pathetic. The series is 5-4 Miami, but all have been close games except for the 20 point beatdown the Bulls laid on the Heat in Game 1. I personally think this Bulls team when healthy can beat Miami. Miami has a tough time beating the Bulls even when the Bulls are down players.

Wednesday might be a different story, especially if we're missing 3 key guys. But of course if Miami wins, the Bulls injuries will be downplayed and Miami's win will be over-hyped. Without Noah and Deng, the Bulls don't have a shot at beating them Wednesday, with them it will come down to the wire again.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
This.

The Heat got better and gained guys while the Bulls had guys hobbled (Noah & Boozer) and lost Asik while Miami gained Haslem and Miller.

And each of those game still came down to the last 2 minutes. There was not one blowout for Miami in the series. Not one all season and not one by these two teams as currently constructed.

People over rate Miami so much that it's pathetic. The series is 5-4 Miami, but all have been close games except for the 20 point beatdown the Bulls laid on the Heat in Game 1. I personally think this Bulls team when healthy can beat Miami. Miami has a tough time beating the Bulls even when the Bulls are down players.

Wednesday might be a different story, especially if we're missing 3 key guys. But of course if Miami wins, the Bulls injuries will be downplayed and Miami's win will be over-hyped. Without Noah and Deng, the Bulls don't have a shot at beating them Wednesday, with them it will come down to the wire again.

Who was the MVP of the ECF last year?
 

Glide2keva

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 28, 2010
Posts:
3,689
Liked Posts:
754
Who was the MVP of the ECF last year?
Point missed. of course lebronze was the MVP of the series. That wasn't his point. His point was that Haslem was the catalyst for the momentum shift. If you don't think that Miami wasn't a different team with him on the floor, then I don't know what to say. Did you only watch lebron and pay no attention to what else was happening out there?

Haslem's defense and scoring was a huge factor for Miami. With him, they won four close games, without him, they got blew out by 20. And that was WITH lebron, Wade and Bosh on the floor.

It wasn't just lebron beating the Bulls by himself. Just like lebron didn't shut Rose down by himself. He did put good defense on him, but he funneled him to the help and Miami used a lot of traps. But of course lebron can be in two places at once since he's the greatest defender of all time.
 

Top