TGDT: 11/3 Devils @ Blackhawks 7:30PM CSN

[R K]

While I agree that +/- can be a bit deceiving at times, it's usually pretty dead on how players are playing and how they play on the ice.



Sharp, Kane, Kopecky, Keith are all negative players. Having watch them play defense in their own zone, I will believe it. I applaud Sharps offensive contributions, as it seems he's the only person who decided to try and put the puck in the net (Hossa too but he's injured). I'll let Kane off the hook because he's never been known to have a defensive game, but Sharp could maybe do a bit better considering the center acts as a 3rd defensemen.



I'm sorry, but Turco is awful. I've never seen someone let in such soft goals, outside of Huet, and every time someone winds up for a shot, I get nervous. He's a typical "flopper/reaction" goaltender, except he's losing a step and he's getting burned on some ridiculous shots. Plus, once teams learn to shoot top shelf on him, it's going to be a nightmare for the Hawks goals against average.



Also, please don't compare this teams stats to the 09-10 team stats. These are two different teams and there are two many changing variables to consider. Our top 2 lines are NHL talent, followed by our bottom lines of AHL talent. At least last years team had NHL talent on all 4 lines. Unfortunately this is the price you pay when you have high paid players and you keep your "core" guys over time. I'm sorry folks but unless someone takes a guy like Campbell off the books, we are going to see the same type of set up (1/2 NHLers, 1/2 AHLers) year after year.

The ONLY difference in lines is you are missing the 3rd line completely. As Larry rightfully said. Not the 3rd and 4th.





I'd take our current 4th line over our former. With Bolland out there is no 3rd line nor a 3rd line Center. I'd say that's slightly disturbing.



Quenneville just can't help but **** up the 4th by trying to make a 3rd.

 

[Pez68]

Finding an effective shutdown line is kind of a big deal. Especially when you can't put together three dangerous scoring lines. Just saying.

 

[PatrickShart]

No team is going to have a "shut down" line 15 games into a season. What were the lines last year....game 15? Who was the shut down line game 60 - because Bolland was out for 50% of the year....so it wasnt him.



The lines - wont be the same today....a month from now.



The team played 10 games in 17 fucking days to start the season - guess what....no practices in that time. So a month into the season, the team - made up of 50% new players, and some injuries and a suspension - to key players....and theres no chemistry yet....what a surprise. Anyone that's played, coached, or been around the game will tell you that time is important. People are crying over who is on what line during the game, or someones playing time - what Q is doing is learning his players abilities, defining roles...and seeing who works in different situations. You do that in Oct/Nov with a new roster and limited practice time. It wont happen in Feb/March when the lines will mesh and maybe a new player or two on the roster (and hopefully players healthy).



The team statiscally - gf/ga and wins - isnt far off from last years pace. So that doesnt matter because it's a new team - true. But the fact of that is the team finished 2nd in the conference with those statistics. This team may not go wire to wire.....may finish 4th-5th in the conference. Thats not important. What will be...is them playing thier best hockey in March/April. This team may not be as good 5 on 5 as last year....but I know the PP is already better than it was last year. Hence - the +\- desrepancy early in the year.



I cant believe how fast people are to "give up", piss and moan about a team this early - that just won the Stanley Cup after 50 years. THIS TEAM - and yes, I stole the caps from HF50 - needs to go through adversity and learn how to win. It builds character AS WELL as chemistry. Thank god they dont have the attitude of some and cry, whine and quit this early. I know I brought up in another thread about the year PITT won the cup and where they were at the midway point of the season...21-20 -4

at the all star break...and went on to win the cup. Yes...they fired their coach (who was an ass)....but the point is, they got their game together. There's no doubt this team is good enough to do that as well. They still have the right guy leading the team (Q) and the leadership in place on the ice. Have some - just a little - faith in the DEFENDING STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS for fucks sake.





Seacrest. Out.

 

[5Minutes4Fighting]

theres no chemistry yet....what a surprise.



What will be important is them playing thier best hockey in March/April.



I cant believe how fast people are to "give up", piss and moan about a team this early - that just won the Stanley Cup after 50 years.



the year PITT won the cup and where they were at the midway point of the season...21-20 -4

at the all star break...and went on to win the cup. Yes...they fired their coach

I think everyone agrees on chemistry. Also keep in mind that nothing builds chemistry like winning.



Maybe i missed something, but i don't read anybody pissing and moaning. I just read some people saying Hawks not playing good hockey right now, including the players themselves.



Good point about when to play good hockey. Last year Phillly had a shit regular season and fired their coach in the middle. Then made the playoffs on the last day in a shootout, nonetheless went to the finals. Plus like you said, Pitt the year before.



-5Minutes

 

[puckjim]

While I agree that +/- can be a bit deceiving at times, it's usually pretty dead on how players are playing and how they play on the ice.



Sharp, Kane, Kopecky, Keith are all negative players. Having watch them play defense in their own zone, I will believe it. I applaud Sharps offensive contributions, as it seems he's the only person who decided to try and put the puck in the net (Hossa too but he's injured). I'll let Kane off the hook because he's never been known to have a defensive game, but Sharp could maybe do a bit better considering the center acts as a 3rd defensemen.



I'm sorry, but Turco is awful. I've never seen someone let in such soft goals, outside of Huet, and every time someone winds up for a shot, I get nervous. He's a typical "flopper/reaction" goaltender, except he's losing a step and he's getting burned on some ridiculous shots. Plus, once teams learn to shoot top shelf on him, it's going to be a nightmare for the Hawks goals against average.



Also, please don't compare this teams stats to the 09-10 team stats. These are two different teams and there are two many changing variables to consider. Our top 2 lines are NHL talent, followed by our bottom lines of AHL talent. At least last years team had NHL talent on all 4 lines. Unfortunately this is the price you pay when you have high paid players and you keep your "core" guys over time. I'm sorry folks but unless someone takes a guy like Campbell off the books, we are going to see the same type of set up (1/2 NHLers, 1/2 AHLers) year after year.

Sorry, but Kane made strides in his defensive game last season. He's regressed this season up to this point and does not deserve any slack.

 

[R K]

Sorry, but Kane made strides in his defensive game last season. He's regressed this season up to this point and does not deserve any slack.

Make sure you come over and make a point to point that out at the next game.



Sunday or Wed, will work.

 

[puckjim]

Make sure you come over and make a point to point that out at the next game.



Sunday or Wed, will work.

Not sure what that means, but the +/- stats don't lie.



A combination of more even strength scoring and better defensive coverage should see that number rise.



The devil is in the research.

 

[Kerfuffle]

When the season started I thought John Scott would be sitting in the press box every night - not playing in most games, and certainly not playing forward. Why the hell did we sign him for 2 years? I can't stand watching this dud out there. I know this is a stretch but does anyone know what Kim Johnnson's status is? Is there any chance at all we can sign him for the minimum to step in here?

 

[PatrickShart]

+/- is not the best indicator in that.



Brett Hull was a +25 in his 3 years in DET....what kind of defensive player was he?



The teams 5 on 5 play and scoring is going to determine a players statistical plus/minus. The eyes will tell if a guy is hustling back, in proper position (based on the coaches terms by position - not fans)



Kane had 18 more points than the previous year - and less on the PP...that can translate to a better +/-. His defensive play improved because he isnt an 18 year old kid, he's still learning the game, has a coach that knows how to teach it, and he works very hard to improve his game.



The plus/minus stat was explained best when its similar to in baseball....if the left fielder makes an error - all 9 players on the field get charged with an error - even though it's not their fault. That last goal that Mills scored, throwing the puck on the net. How was that any of the forwards fault? Yet they all get a minus?



And losing can build character and chemistry too. More times you can learn more from a loss than a win. You see the players that bear down and work harder - or if your team bails/gives up. You can work harder and come back stronger from adversity when you have good leadership - and the Hawks have that.

 

[R K]

Finding an effective shutdown line is kind of a big deal. Especially when you can't put together three dangerous scoring lines. Just saying.

It's huge, and also some what unexpected. Having no 3rd line center with no depth at center is a giant problem. And no money to find a 3rd line center makes it worse.



Just sayin.

 

[R K]

Not sure what that means, but the +/- stats don't lie.



A combination of more even strength scoring and better defensive coverage should see that number rise.



The devil is in the research.

Yes they do. You should have been around the game long enough to understand this.



Sharp went from -5 to -10 in one game. Kopecky did the same thing. Look at the + goal differential last year. It was the 2nd highest in the league. That's why so many players were PLUS on the team.



They do lie.



Come on over and see me on Sunday and I'll have someone explain +/- to you and then explain to him why he's explaining it to you.



Right now most of this team is MINUS. For a reason. They are giving up goals.



The devil is actually in the knowing what you are talking about part first. LOL!

 

[R K]

+/- is not the best indicator in that.



Brett Hull was a +25 in his 3 years in DET....what kind of defensive player was he?



The teams 5 on 5 play and scoring is going to determine a players statistical plus/minus. The eyes will tell if a guy is hustling back, in proper position (based on the coaches terms by position - not fans)



Kane had 18 more points than the previous year - and less on the PP...that can translate to a better +/-. His defensive play improved because he isnt an 18 year old kid, he's still learning the game, has a coach that knows how to teach it, and he works very hard to improve his game.



The plus/minus stat was explained best when its similar to in baseball....if the left fielder makes an error - all 9 players on the field get charged with an error - even though it's not their fault. That last goal that Mills scored, throwing the puck on the net. How was that any of the forwards fault? Yet they all get a minus?



And losing can build character and chemistry too. More times you can learn more from a loss than a win. You see the players that bear down and work harder - or if your team bails/gives up. You can work harder and come back stronger from adversity when you have good leadership - and the Hawks have that.

Sharp was on the ice for all five goals against. Did he cause any, maybe #2 where he couldn't get off the ice at the end of a shift and got stuck with Hendry and Scott.



He was -5 on Wed. It's a flawed stat. More a team stat though. If everyone on the team or a majority are minus, means the team is giving up a lot of even strength goals. More than they are scoring. Hawks had two PP goals on Wed. Neither gain anyone a plus.

 

[PatrickShart]

I think at best....it's a good stat for defenceman - especially when matching lines. You can tell the success rate of shutting down top lines, but for forwards...alot of times its flawed. There's been numberous times a guy just hops on the ice for a change when the other team is in transition and they get a minus. The D rarely has that happen to them.





Hell, Pahlsson is a very good defensive forward...and is a career -55 and has only had one plus season.

 

[R K]

where was Ovechkin last year? I agree with you PMX.



If the entire team is + then they are playing good as a team.



If the entire team is -, or a majority, then they are not playing good as a team.



Or can't score goals and that doesn't seem to be this teams problem. They are scoring just shy of 3 per game. That "should" win a lot of games.

 

[PatrickShart]

Crosby's year he won the cup...he had 103pts....and was a +3

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Crosby's year he won the cup...he had 103pts....and was a +3

That's because he's been a Power Play specialist up until last year. That little sally draws so many fake penalties it's disgusting. His +/- is usually low as far as I can remember without looking it up.

 

[PatrickShart]

Regardless of your personal feelings against him....he's a very good 2 way player..he's averaged a +9 in his first 5 years. About 40% of his points are on the PP - almost identical to Kane (39%)

 

[Pez68]

Yes they do. You should have been around the game long enough to understand this.



Sharp went from -5 to -10 in one game. Kopecky did the same thing. Look at the + goal differential last year. It was the 2nd highest in the league. That's why so many players were PLUS on the team.



They do lie.



Come on over and see me on Sunday and I'll have someone explain +/- to you and then explain to him why he's explaining it to you.



Right now most of this team is MINUS. For a reason. They are giving up goals.



The devil is actually in the knowing what you are talking about part first. LOL!

Kane's dad will probably be the first person to admit that Kane isn't playing as well as he could be, regardless of +- stats. That's just how hockey dads are... even if his kid is now 21 and playing in the NHL.

 

[R K]

Kane's dad will probably be the first person to admit that Kane isn't playing as well as he could be, regardless of +- stats. That's just how hockey dads are... even if his kid is now 21 and playing in the NHL.

Assumption is the root of all evil. Especially when replying to something that had nothign to do with you.



Everyone can play better. but thanks to you the board expert for letting us know. This was about +/-.



Oi fucking Vey.

 

[Pez68]

Assumption is the root of all evil. Especially when replying to something that had nothign to do with you.



Everyone can play better. but thanks to you the board expert for letting us know. This was about +/-.



Oi fucking Vey.

If it isn't meant for public debate or criticism, put it in a PM. That's what they're for. Otherwise, every post made in "Hawk Talk" is open to anyone else on the board commenting on it. It's a public message board, last I checked.



His +- is a result of his play. Not all of it, but a portion of it certainly is. Just like Sharp, Kopecky, and certainly this year's disappointment, Hjalmarsson. Who are all at the bottom of the team in +-. Or is it just a coincidence that all of our top six, outside of Toews and Hossa, happen to be deep in the negatives right now? The reason for that isn't all just "bad luck" or "bad timing", as much as you would like to think it is. Hell, even Kane said as much in one of his interviews a while back, when he was put on a line with Bolland. Something along the lines of "well I'm a -6 so obviously I need to play better and more responsible".



Forwards have JUST as much to do with keeping the puck out of the net as defensemen. Just an fyi.