TGDT: 11/3 Devils @ Blackhawks 7:30PM CSN

[R K]

Yes Pez but you can't help yourself.



I'll keep that in mind when posting in the future.



Again his and Sharps +/- is more a product of the fucking team than the individual players. I didn't read your view on the plus/minus nor do I really care too.



PMX has it down.

 

[TJD]

If it isn't meant for public debate or criticism, put it in a PM. That's what they're for. Otherwise, every post made in "Hawk Talk" is open to anyone else on the board commenting on it. It's a public message board, last I checked.



His +- is a result of his play. Not all of it, but a portion of it certainly is. Just like Sharp, Kopecky, and certainly this year's disappointment, Hjalmarsson. Who are all at the bottom of the team in +-. Or is it just a coincidence that all of our top six, outside of Toews and Hossa, happen to be deep in the negatives right now? The reason for that isn't all just "bad luck" or "bad timing", as much as you would like to think it is. Hell, even Kane said as much in one of his interviews a while back, when he was put on a line with Bolland. Something along the lines of "well I'm a -6 so obviously I need to play better and more responsible".



Forwards have JUST as much to do with keeping the puck out of the net as defensemen. Just an fyi.

I have to agree with this.



If you're on the ice for 5 goals in a game, I'm thinking at some point there is a bit of an individual problem as well of a team problem.



Sure +/- can be flawed if you just jump on the ice or those situations, but unless a guy get's burned on an odd man advantage, then every guy on the ice deserves his minus because of poor positioning or defense.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Brodeur out tonight against the Rangers... "Upper Body Injury"... we've seen this show before. The Devils could be in some serious trouble as if they weren't already.

 

[R K]

I have to agree with this.



If you're on the ice for 5 goals in a game, I'm thinking at some point there is a bit of an individual problem as well of a team problem.



Sure +/- can be flawed if you just jump on the ice or those situations, but unless a guy get's burned on an odd man advantage, then every guy on the ice deserves his minus because of poor positioning or defense.

Unless it's Lapointe type +/- point total I see it as a team problem 100%. Especially when 15 of the 19-20 roster players are minus.



Now if it were 3-4 players minus and everyone else + then it might lean toward individual play.



I don't think Sharp was horrible the other night other than getting caught in a situation of not being able to get on/off the ice on the 2nd goal.



The team didn't play well though I can say that.

 

[Ton]

Sharp was on the ice for two empty net goals, plus he was on the ice with Scott and Hendry... so really it was more like a -2.

 

[Pez68]

Unless it's Lapointe type +/- point total I see it as a team problem 100%. Especially when 15 of the 19-20 roster players are minus.

A team problem. Well, no shit? Last I checked, Sharp and Kane are two of the five skaters on the ice when a goal is scored. That is, after all, how they get a negative. They have played the majority of their time together this season. As a result, they are a substantial part of that TEAM problem you keep referring to. Unless of course that "team problem" somehow doesn't include Kane and Sharp? Is it just everyone else out there that is sucking defensively? Holy **** I'm having a really hard time keeping up with this logic. Anyone care to help me out here?

plus he was on the ice with Scott and Hendry...

Would you care to tell me who is the third defenseman on the ice when we are in the defensive zone? Sharp was just as much, if not MORE to blame for that goal, as Hendry and Scott were. You don't blow the zone until the team has SOLID possession of the puck, and, as a center, you should be the LAST forward out of the zone.

 

[PatrickShart]

Ok Pez...what could/should Sharp have done...to prevent that empty net - or how was his lack of D on that play worth a minus? Same as Toews, Kane.....who were on the ice for that. What about that play was lack of coverage by them?

 

[PatrickShart]

And...there are set plays and breakouts where the Center leaves before wingers. There are plays where the backside Dman may exit with the puck before wingers and the center.



It depends on the other teams forecheck and situation.

 

[Pez68]

Ok Pez...what could/should Sharp have done...to prevent that empty net - or how was his lack of D on that play worth a minus? Same as Toews, Kane.....who were on the ice for that. What about that play was lack of coverage by them?

I'm not referring to the empty net goals, but when you're that far in the negatives, there's a problem with your defensive play. It isn't all just bad luck. Know what they could have done? They could have scored a SINGLE goal between them during the game. Then we never pull the goalie, and those empty net goals never happen. How does that work?

 

[Pez68]

And...there are set plays and breakouts where the Center leaves before wingers. There are plays where the backside Dman may exit with the puck before wingers and the center.



It depends on the other teams forecheck and situation.

Breakouts and set plays typically require puck possession. At least, they did when I played competitive hockey. Kane and Sharp are both flying the zone way too early this season.

 

[R K]

LOL!



Or the Defense is not playing as they are accustom to playing.



PMX he should have "willed" Turco hold his post.

 

[R K]

Ok Pez...what could/should Sharp have done...to prevent that empty net - or how was his lack of D on that play worth a minus? Same as Toews, Kane.....who were on the ice for that. What about that play was lack of coverage by them?

I can only reply to what I can see now. Serenity now type of moment.



I may have a fat head but even I can no longer handle it. I'll go back to hockey 101 now.

 

[PatrickShart]

Breakouts and set plays typically require puck possession. At least, they did when I played competitive hockey. Kane and Sharp are both flying the zone way too early this season.

I don't know how long ago you've played, but flying the zone and quick transition is part of the game now. Stretching plays and the other teams defence is a big part of the game - especially since the removal of the center ice line.



I coached it - at a high level...and game day/pre-scouting determines what the team does. There are times where centers leave if opposing teams take the boards away, again - it depends on the opponent, the game, etc. The days of the d passing to the center who passes to the wing, to the other wing = breakout....are done and over with.

 

[PatrickShart]

I'm not referring to the empty net goals, but when you're that far in the negatives, there's a problem with your defensive play. It isn't all just bad luck. Know what they could have done? They could have scored a SINGLE goal between them during the game. Then we never pull the goalie, and those empty net goals never happen. How does that work?

EN goals counted as a minus...which you're using to determine a players poor defensive play. And you're argument to combat their poor defensive number (the minus)....is to score a goal. This doesnt make sense anymore....so if the tell all is the +\- , I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

[Pez68]

You're right. There's nothing at all wrong with Sharp and Kane's play right now. It is everyone else on the team that is the problem. That is the reason our goal differential is so bad compared to last year, and that is why so many guys are in the negative. It is the team's play that is the problem, but Kane and Sharp are playing great, especially in the defensive zone. That explains why Hossa and Toews are still plus players, yet most of our forwards are not. The others just have bad luck, while Toews and Hossa have really, really good luck. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with the lack of two-way play from the other forwards, and Toews and Hossa being the only players busting their ass on the defensive side of the puck. It is entirely on our defense sucking, empty net goals that somehow don't affect Toews +-, even though he is on the ice too, and a shitty goaltender. The forwards play no part in the bad team defense.



What the **** are you guys smoking? Whatever it is, pass some this way.



Oh, and as far as the breakout bullshit.... sorry, no. NO breakout starts until you have POSSESSION OF THE PUCK. In my book, that's called cherry picking, and I bet Coach Q feels the exact same way. You don't play offense, until you are done playing defense. Period. How the **** do you break out of the zone before you have the puck?

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

Here is a post I made earlier about breakouts and referring to a specific play:

You must be talking about the 2nd Devils goal, right? Keith, Seabrook, Hendry, and Scott were within the keys when Keith (all alone), was trying to coral the puck. Pisani saw that Keith was going to control the puck and with the other 'Hawks in the area and no Devil really inside of them or close enough to Keith, started skating out of the zone. Just like I was taught to do when there is that much player support around. Unfortunately Keith could not corel the puck, and Scott was way to slow to catchup to his guy.



Normally in that situation, Keith is able to corel the puck and get it out, even the Devils were poised to leave the zone until they saw that he was not going to be able to control it. The support was there, but the puck just could not be controlled, and so there was a turnover...

As PMX pointed out there is game day scouting and game planning that is put into effect for the general expected team play, along with the team scheme, and finally, and importantly, along with situation or assumption of situation. It is a fast game after all.



The NHL game has changed to where trying to get the early jump has far more advantage than disadvantage and that has been the part of the 'Hawks team scheme for the past 3-4 years. With the situation I pointed out above, As a center I would have done the same thing every time unless directed not to. The problem was a team breakdown that stated with trouble to coral the puck and the performance of a winger who was poised to support, but just is not skilled enough to do so. It happens occasionally, and as long as it does not happen often or the opponent has shown to be strong at capitalizing on a situation like that, the team is not going to reduce an advantage of play.