TGDT: 4/17 WCQF Game 3 - Canucks (2) @ (0) Blackhawks 7:00PM CSN

[R K]

I would trade Hossa to keep Sharp. In a heartbeat.

I don't know about that. Sharp got a TON of his production this year from Kane. Hossa, not so much.



I think I'd look for a real Center, and keep Hossa. Especially for the 5.3 mil cap hit when we all know damn well Sharp is worth 6 per year.



And PMX Hossa's contract is very movable. Campbells, not so much.

 

[LordKOTL]

That's the biggest question and one of the reasons Sharp might be in his last year this coming season. Unless he takes a pay cut, he's not staying. No way would they Trade Kane, Toews or Hossa's AWESOME Cap hit, over Sharp.



Not happening.

Which is why I personally think we wait for the deadline for Sharp. None of the other "expensive" players really can or should be moved, and with the fillings from thei year, like you said, Hammer and/or someone else could fetch a pretty good fill-in center that can take 3rd/4th line duties.



Then, we figure out what it takes to get Sharp back, what we can do and what he's willing to do. If it can be worked we'd do it because after Toews/Kane/Seabrook/Keith/Hossa/Campbell, he's worth more than all below (IMHO). If it can't, we get whatever we can at the deadline and cut the losses, but only after all options are exhausted.

 

[Ton]

Now people want to get rid of our 2nd most valuable player in Sharp? Hilarious.



Talk about performing heart surgery.

 

[R K]

Now people want to get rid of our 2nd most valuable player in Sharp? Hilarious.



Talk about performing heart surgery.

I don't think anyone wants to deal Sharp. Personally I think they can find a 2nd line center for NHL young D men, but that said Sharp is in his last year, and going to want a raise.



How many 6 mil per year forwards can we afford? If they can't get him signed they'll have to get something or lose him for nothing. Pretty sure he's UFA.

 

[Ton]

I don't think anyone wants to deal Sharp. Personally I think they can find a 2nd line center for NHL young D men, but that said Sharp is in his last year, and going to want a raise.



How many 6 mil per year forwards can we afford? If they can't get him signed they'll have to get something or lose him for nothing. Pretty sure he's UFA.

This is a stupid conversation and you know it. We don't even know how much the Cap will rise after this season, let alone after next season.



I don't even want to get into how stupid Stan would be in order to let Sharp walk because he can't afford an extra $2M to pay him what he is worth. Toews, Kane, Seabrook. Those are the only guys that may have as much value as Sharp does to this team. I'd probably put Sharp ahead of Kane too, but considering Kane's age it's pretty obvious while Sharp is on the decline Kane will only get better which is why I mention him in the same list. Either way, you do whatever it takes to keep those 4 guys because there is NO ONE to replace any of them.

 

[R K]

This is a stupid conversation and you know it. We don't even know how much the Cap will rise after this season, let alone after next season.



I don't even want to get into how stupid Stan would be in order to let Sharp walk because he can't afford an extra $2M to pay him what he is worth. Toews, Kane, Seabrook. Those are the only guys that may have as much value as Sharp does to this team. I'd probably put Sharp ahead of Kane too, but considering Kane's age it's pretty obvious while Sharp is on the decline Kane will only get better which is why I mention him in the same list. Either way, you do whatever it takes to keep those 4 guys because there is NO ONE to replace any of them.

I didn't fucking start it! I also don't agree. It all depends on what SHARP and his AGENT want!



As for the cap any idiot can read they think it's going to rise in the 2mil range. Add to that the 4 mil penalty, minus the 2 mil from Seabrook and you end up with about 4 mil. That is to retool BOTH 3rd and 4th lines, PLUS a Center.



Again I wouldn't move Sharp if he'll stay for around 5 mil. I'd move Hjarlmarsson and or Leddy for a 2nd line Center. Which no doubt would fetch one.



As for Sharp there is NO DOUBT Kane is above him on that list. Kane would have LED this team for the 3rd time since he arrive in points had he not had his ankle issue and did not constantly play musical lines with him. He's been skating with two AHL players in the Playoffs. Yea right. Not to mention the age fact you brought up. Just how many of Kanes assists were getting Sharp goals? I'm sure a stat someone could dig up. Not to mention Sharp is always streaky although improving ever year his age will at some point not do that.

 

[Ton]

I didn't fucking start it! I also don't agree. It all depends on what SHARP and his AGENT want!



As for the cap any idiot can read they think it's going to rise in the 2mil range. Add to that the 4 mil penalty, minus the 2 mil from Seabrook and you end up with about 4 mil. That is to retool BOTH 3rd and 4th lines, PLUS a Center.



Again I wouldn't move Sharp if he'll stay for around 5 mil. I'd move Hjarlmarsson and or Leddy for a 2nd line Center. Which no doubt would fetch one.



As for Sharp there is NO DOUBT Kane is above him on that list. Kane would have LED this team for the 3rd time since he arrive in points had he not had his ankle issue and did not constantly play musical lines with him. He's been skating with two AHL players in the Playoffs. Yea right. Not to mention the age fact you brought up. Just how many of Kanes assists were getting Sharp goals? I'm sure a stat someone could dig up. Not to mention Sharp is always streaky although improving ever year his age will at some point not do that.

Which is for next season, which doesn't mean anything since Sharp's contract ends after 2011/2012, which means you have to speculate where the Cap will be after that, which makes this conversation pointless unless someone has a crystal ball. We don't even know where the Cap will be after this season, let alone after next season. It's fucking stupid.



As far as Kane leading the team, could of would of should of. Sharp was more important to the team this year, through production, versatility, leadership, and the way he handles himself professionally. Kane is very important too though, I'm not downplaying that at all. Who cares what I think, bottom line is that if any of Toews, Kane, Seabrook, or Sharp were traded we would be performing heart surgery on this team.

 

[R K]

Which is for next season, which doesn't mean anything since Sharp's contract ends after 2011/2012, which means you have to speculate where the Cap will be after that, which makes this conversation pointless unless someone has a crystal ball. We don't even know where the Cap will be after this season, let alone after next season. It's fucking stupid.



As far as Kane leading the team, could of would of should of. Sharp was more important to the team this year, through production, versatility, leadership, and the way he handles himself professionally. Kane is very important too though, I'm not downplaying that at all. Who cares what I think, bottom line is that if any of Toews, Kane, Seabrook, or Sharp were traded we would be performing heart surgery on this team.

He's UFA isn't he? It's something that starts ticking in a few months IMO. I somewhat agree with your last statement, although the need at Center, just like years ago, is glaring.



I wasn't the one advocating trading sharp either. You should read more and respond accordingly.

 

[Ton]

I know who started it, I was just replying in general I'm not singling anyone out. You responded to me first so I responded back.



I did some research since I have nothing better to do and came up with Sharps goal stat:



-Kane assisted on 14 of Sharps goals, which is roughly around 41% of his total. Eight of them were primary assists, which means roughly 23.5% of Sharps goals came directly from Kane's stick.



-Toews assisted on 15 of Sharps goals, which is roughly around 44% of his total. Again, eight of them were primary assists which is roughly another 23.5% of Sharps goals coming straight from Johnny's stick.



-Kopecky had 6 primary assists which translates to roughly 17% of Sharp's goals coming directly off Kopeckys stick.



So pretty much, around 64% of Sharp's goals came from Toews, Kanes, or Kopeckys stick. The other 36% is from a mixture of players, Campbell, Keith, Seabrook, Brouwer, etc.. etc.. Not one primary assist came from Hossa interestingly enough, but he does have a handful of secondary assists.



Take that for what it's worth, but just goes to show that Toews is just as important and Kopecky is up there as well. It's not all Kane. Sharp can produce anywhere in the line-up, this is what makes him so important. Him and Kane have had plenty of bouncing around this year and both have produced, with or without each other.

 

[PatrickShart]

Yeah...I know I started it, so feel free to say it Ton.



I also know that for all the complaints I read all year about how this team has no depth and the tiresome tears that were shed that Pisani, Scott, Johnson, Boynton, Cullimore - the 500K group - had to play due to the fact they were up against the cap. Or the other moaning about how its horsehit Kopecky is playing center or even how Frolik isn't a center, what is Q thinking....





Go pay Sharp 5-6mil - which is what he's worth. Then you'll have 42 mil tied into Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Campbell and Seabrook. Throw in Hjarll and Bolland at another 7mil there and 49mil for 9 players. Thats great that the cap will go up prob 2mil this year and 2mil next year at minimum, so put it at 64mil. That leaves 15mil to find the remaining 14 players (including a goaltender).



Either accept the 500K group or plan on a key player needing to get moved. Seems to me a player up for UFA and going to need a decent raise makes sense to be moved.

 

[Ton]

Yeah...I know I started it, so feel free to say it Ton.



I also know that for all the complaints I read all year about how this team has no depth and the tiresome tears that were shed that Pisani, Scott, Johnson, Boynton, Cullimore - the 500K group - had to play due to the fact they were up against the cap. Or the other moaning about how its horsehit Kopecky is playing center or even how Frolik isn't a center, what is Q thinking....





Go pay Sharp 5-6mil - which is what he's worth. Then you'll have 42 mil tied into Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Campbell and Seabrook. Throw in Hjarll and Bolland at another 7mil there and 49mil for 9 players. Thats great that the cap will go up prob 2mil this year and 2mil next year at minimum, so put it at 64mil. That leaves 15mil to find the remaining 14 players (including a goaltender).



Either accept the 500K group or plan on a key player needing to get moved. Seems to me a player up for UFA and going to need a decent raise makes sense to be moved.

All I'm saying is nobody knows what will happen between now and then. Maybe we'll have to trade a key player, but that doesn't mean it needs to be Sharp.



If your scenario plays out we'll need to pay each of the remaining 14 players roughly $1.1M to stay within the Cap. Obviously that number will fluctuate but it's not 500K. Stan can pay the each guy on the 4th line/reserve 500-600K and I'd be fine with that, Tallon did it with Fraser, Burish, Eager... the difference was they were far more effective because Tallon knew what he was doing. You also never know which rookies will make the team or who will sign a steal of a contract and become a great bang for the buck, you don't know who will be expendable by the end of next year because of this rookie or that rookie, or maybe a gem that is found in Free Agency. There are too many factors in the way to talk about it now. As of now, Toews, Kane, Seabs, and Sharp cannot be traded, no way.



Either way, I like the conversation I just think it's the wrong time to bring it up. Bring it up around the deadline next year.

 

[Spunky Porkstacker]

I know who started it, I was just replying in general I'm not singling anyone out. You responded to me first so I responded back.



I did some research since I have nothing better to do and came up with Sharps goal stat:



-Kane assisted on 14 of Sharps goals, which is roughly around 41% of his total. Eight of them were primary assists, which means roughly 23.5% of Sharps goals came directly from Kane's stick.



-Toews assisted on 15 of Sharps goals, which is roughly around 44% of his total. Again, eight of them were primary assists which is roughly another 23.5% of Sharps goals coming straight from Johnny's stick.



-Kopecky had 6 primary assists which translates to roughly 17% of Sharp's goals coming directly off Kopeckys stick.



So pretty much, around 64% of Sharp's goals came from Toews, Kanes, or Kopeckys stick. The other 36% is from a mixture of players, Campbell, Keith, Seabrook, Brouwer, etc.. etc.. Not one primary assist came from Hossa interestingly enough, but he does have a handful of secondary assists.



Take that for what it's worth, but just goes to show that Toews is just as important and Kopecky is up there as well. It's not all Kane. Sharp can produce anywhere in the line-up, this is what makes him so important. Him and Kane have had plenty of bouncing around this year and both have produced, with or without each other.

So if 14 of his goals were assisted by Kane and 15 by Toews does that mean 29 goals were scored by Sharpie while skating on the STK line?

 

[PatrickShart]

Probably good portion on the PP

 

[R K]

I know who started it, I was just replying in general I'm not singling anyone out. You responded to me first so I responded back.



I did some research since I have nothing better to do and came up with Sharps goal stat:



-Kane assisted on 14 of Sharps goals, which is roughly around 41% of his total. Eight of them were primary assists, which means roughly 23.5% of Sharps goals came directly from Kane's stick.



-Toews assisted on 15 of Sharps goals, which is roughly around 44% of his total. Again, eight of them were primary assists which is roughly another 23.5% of Sharps goals coming straight from Johnny's stick.



-Kopecky had 6 primary assists which translates to roughly 17% of Sharp's goals coming directly off Kopeckys stick.



So pretty much, around 64% of Sharp's goals came from Toews, Kanes, or Kopeckys stick. The other 36% is from a mixture of players, Campbell, Keith, Seabrook, Brouwer, etc.. etc.. Not one primary assist came from Hossa interestingly enough, but he does have a handful of secondary assists.



Take that for what it's worth, but just goes to show that Toews is just as important and Kopecky is up there as well. It's not all Kane. Sharp can produce anywhere in the line-up, this is what makes him so important. Him and Kane have had plenty of bouncing around this year and both have produced, with or without each other.

I think you answered your own question with that. Kane has bounced around. And still almost led this team in points.



That's pretty telling. Imagine what would happen with a consistent center? Which he didn't have for most of the year.



Also tell me how many of Sharps goals were on the PP.

 

[Ton]

I think you answered your own question with that. Kane has bounced around. And still almost led this team in points.



That's pretty telling. Imagine what would happen with a consistent center? Which he didn't have for most of the year.



Also tell me how many of Sharps goals were on the PP.

OK but just as Kane has bounced around so has Sharp -- if anything Sharp moved around even more. I'm not sure why you have to downplay his importance to the team just because I think he is just as important, if not slightly more important than Kane at this point in his career. Kane might be more skilled but it's not like Sharp is a scrub in the skill category either, he also scored plenty of goals without Kane's help so it's not like he only scores goals because of Kane -- he has the best shot on this team right next to Johnny and of course Kane is right behind both of them and not very far off. He is versatile and a very important leader. If you think Kane should not be traded, then I just wonder why you even think Sharp's name should slip into trade discussions, both are extremely important (just as important as one another) and if either one were gone we would be in big trouble. Neither are replaceable.



He had 12 PP goals (according to NHL.com but I counted 11, not sure where the 12th one is), 35% of his total. Kane assisted four of them, two of them were primary assists... so 18% of Sharp's PP goals came directly from Kane's stick to his. Who cares how many of his goals were on the PP, someone has to score them! Top 5 in PP goals this year: D. Sedin, Stamkos, Selanne, Kesler, Perry. All of those guys are irreplaceable for their respective teams, not one of them is a PP specialist, the same way Sharp is not just a PP specialist either. Sharp is in the top ten for the record.



Toews had 10 PP goals, two less than Sharp and one more even strength goal. He probably has more goals assisted by Kane than Sharp does but I'm not going to bother looking that up. Maybe he's expendable too!

 

[PatrickShart]

Plus...if (and this is just discussion here)...but if Sharp is moved, chances are they would get a pretty good player back.



I mentioned a couple of players I think would be good targets...in Jordan Staal or Stephen Weiss. Maybe a player/prospect gets moved too, but what if the center pieces were Sharp to FLA for Weiss? Tallon would get a guy he knows to captain/lead his team. Weiss is signed for 2 more years with a 3.1mil cap hit - saving the Hawks 800K. He's 28yrs old. The last 5 yrs -

Weiss - 382gms - 96g - 164a - 260pts - +16 - 12 gwg

Sharp - 377gms - 141g - 137a - 278pts - +37 - 22 gwg



Point production isn't that far off, and Weiss has been playing with much less talent. How much better or pressure would be off of Toews to have a point producer playing behind him? Would Hossa be better having a center? God forbid Toews ever gets hurt because right now in the playoffs, the natural centers on this team is Toews, Johnson, Dowell and Kruger.



Getting a guy like Weiss would give the Hawks Toews, Weiss, Bolland and Kruger going into next season. That would be some of the best depth they'd have.



I don't take what Sharp means to this team lightly - both on and off the ice. I realize how good he is, how important he is when he's hot. But I do think this team needs a center to play behind Toews and with Hossa or Kane on the second line. I think he deserves the contract he's going to get at the end of next season. I'm glad they didn't move him at the end of last year. I can understand if he is a guy that is shopped in the off season to get a second line center. He's the most valuable chip the Hawks have.

 

[E Runs]

OK but just as Kane has bounced around so has Sharp -- if anything Sharp moved around even more. I'm not sure why you have to downplay his importance to the team just because I think he is just as important, if not slightly more important than Kane at this point in his career. Kane might be more skilled but it's not like Sharp is a scrub in the skill category either, he also scored plenty of goals without Kane's help so it's not like he only scores goals because of Kane -- he has the best shot on this team right next to Johnny and of course Kane is right behind both of them and not very far off. He is versatile and a very important leader. If you think Kane should not be traded, then I just wonder why you even think Sharp's name should slip into trade discussions, both are extremely important (just as important as one another) and if either one were gone we would be in big trouble. Neither are replaceable.



He had 12 PP goals (according to NHL.com but I counted 11, not sure where the 12th one is), 35% of his total. Kane assisted four of them, two of them were primary assists... so 18% of Sharp's PP goals came directly from Kane's stick to his. Who cares how many of his goals were on the PP, someone has to score them! Top 5 in PP goals this year: D. Sedin, Stamkos, Selanne, Kesler, Perry. All of those guys are irreplaceable for their respective teams, not one of them is a PP specialist, the same way Sharp is not just a PP specialist either. Sharp is in the top ten for the record.



Toews had 10 PP goals, two less than Sharp and one more even strength goal. He probably has more goals assisted by Kane than Sharp does but I'm not going to bother looking that up. Maybe he's expendable too!

Bang on Ton!



Patrick "allegedly one of the best players in the NHL" Kane had a whopping 2 more points than Sharp, albeit with Sharp playing a whopping 1 more game. Both were bounced around, both played with injuries. To me this means 2 things, 1) Sharp is that damn important and 2) Kane has more to give, a lot more.



And since we're talking about the ramifications of the Cap and who should get paid what, imagine if Baby Bowman would have signed the Golden Childern($6.3M) to what Perry and Getzlaf got ($5.35 and 2 players who have produced just as much if not more) Andrew Ladd would still be wearing 16 and/or there'd be money for Sharp. But god forbid that had happened. I suppose Brian Murray is just a better GM.

 

[Ton]

So if 14 of his goals were assisted by Kane and 15 by Toews does that mean 29 goals were scored by Sharpie while skating on the STK line?

No, many of those goals were assisted by both Toews and Kane. Seven of them to be exact (which equates to 14 assists alone and 22 of his goals were assisted -- including secondary assists -- by either Toews, Kane, or both)



Only two primary assists from Kane on the PP, pretty much disabling that whole theory of "Sharp only scores on the PP because Kane gets him the puck", actually it's mostly Kopecky that gets the primary assists on Sharps PP goals.



Primary assists on the PP:



Kopecky - 3

Toews - 2

Kane - 2

Keith - 2

Seabrook - 2

 

[Pez68]

And since we're talking about the ramifications of the Cap and who should get paid what, imagine if Baby Bowman would have signed the Golden Childern($6.3M) to what Perry and Getzlaf got ($5.35 and 2 players who have produced just as much if not more) Andrew Ladd would still be wearing 16 and/or there'd be money for Sharp. But god forbid that had happened. I suppose Brian Murray is just a better GM.

BINGO! Yes, Brian Murry IS a better GM. Just look at how cheap Selanne's been for the Ducks all these years... We got no discount on Toews/Kane. None. I said it when they signed, and I stick by it now.

 

[PatrickShart]

Getzlaf/Perry signed their deals in 2008/2009 - 2 years ago...the market/price goes up



Up until that point/their contracts were up in their career -

Gtzlf - 216gms - 63g - 116a - 179pts

Perry - 208gms - 59g - 64a - 123pts

Toews - 222gms - 83g - 108a - 201pts

Kane - 244gms - 76g - 154a - 230pts



Sharp is 29 years old...Kane is 22. Sharp has played 493 games to Kane's 317....and has 13 more career points than Kane.



Over the last 20 years, only seven players in the NHL have posted more points before turning 23 (Crosby, Jagr, Lindros, Sundin, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk). KANE will turn 23 on Nov. 19. He is one of just 13 point-per-game players in the NHL this year(min. 2 games played).



But yes, he has more to give and doesn't give enough.