The Burqa and France

[Chief Walking Stick]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]

Nice try but not even close. Muslim law is very strict against women and limits their rights and what they can / cannot do. You should know that. Want some examples?



- Women cannot drive

- Women cannot go outside the home without a male escort that is a family member

- If women are assaulted it requires 4 male witnesses to the crime. Guess how many of these are prosecuted?

- If women are assaulted they are blamed for allowing it to happen and their husbands can kill them as an honor killing.

- When a woman's husband dies she is outcast by society.



And you think this is the same as women not being permitted to be priests in the Catholic church?[/quote]



Good lord... I wish that was a law everywhere.



Not in the United States. Do you NOT GET WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING?!?!? The Islam practiced in the US is predominately NOT RADICAL. Just like you used to be able to beat your wife if she talked in church for Christians 500 years ago. Religions evolve and only the idiots that don't evolve with the religion to suit today's world are the radicals.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]

1) Is the bible true to the word of God? Yes - I'll agree with that especially the gospels and word of Christ in the bible. Do I agree with everything in the bible? No - of course not. The old testament has some pretty outdated and sexist readings for scholars (not god) that I don't like. When my wife and I had to pick an old testament verse for our wedding it was difficult to find anything that wasn't offensive.

2) Is the Quaran true to the word of God? Don't know as I've never read it - and I know you haven't either.[/quote]





bah hah ha ha. As a good little atheist, I've spent my time on the toilet reading many religious texts and have probably read shit you have never heard of, but you quit hitting the books and now you just arent that good anymore, will hunting.



Anyhow, you answered correctly. As to avoid getting yourself into contradicting your first assessment. There is much in the Quaran that is damn near verbatum in the bible. For example their book of revelation is quite similar, even the good lord jeebus is the one that leads the armies of God into battle with the armies of Satan.





Do I agree with everything in the bible? No - of course not. The old testament has some pretty outdated and sexist readings for scholars (not god) that I don't like. When my wife and I had to pick an old testament verse for our wedding it was difficult to find anything that wasn't offensive.



As to this comment, now isn't it possible for somebody to use the bible to justify some quite non-peacful acts? While also I will agree the bible on the same token provides many positive peaceful messages.



Guess what? the Quaran is the same. It does have some inflammatory messages that are not peaceful. While on the other hand it will have shit about making love not war.



What people use relgion for is dependent upon the individual. You can't say X religion is more violent or hateful than Y religion when both contain a mix of inflammatory, immoral, violent messages as well as messages regarding peace love and fellowship.





(If you would like, i can take a snapshot with my mug in the picture to prove I have an english language copy of the Quaran, whether you believe Ive read it or not is up to you)

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]

Nice try but not even close. Muslim law is very strict against women and limits their rights and what they can / cannot do. You should know that. Want some examples?



- Women cannot drive

- Women cannot go outside the home without a male escort that is a family member

- If women are assaulted it requires 4 male witnesses to the crime. Guess how many of these are prosecuted?

- If women are assaulted they are blamed for allowing it to happen and their husbands can kill them as an honor killing.

- When a woman's husband dies she is outcast by society.



And you think this is the same as women not being permitted to be priests in the Catholic church?[/quote]



Wow the Quaran has better forsight than the bible. It must be the one true religion! Mohammed new people could drive cars in the future! :clap:



PRO TIP: Wow I think were getting somewhere, thats a law some dude made up! I don't recall the part of the Quaran where they said woman couldnt drive with the top down and their hair blowin in the wind.

 

[mikita's helmet]

RE: Organized Religion



I think most organized religions suck (I was raised Catholic), and in my opinion, anyone who says there is just one god, one religion is talking out of their ass, just as anyone who says they know, for sure, that God doesn't exist is.



I consider myself a lapsed agnostic, I don't know if God exists, it's just impossible to know. Regardless, the way I live my life is I try (and quite often fail) and treat others the way I'd like to be treated. It usually works out pretty good for me.



RE: (Government imposed) dress codes



The only dress code I'd enforce is nudity at Nudist Colonies (especially during bacchanal activities)

... and at urban orgies, minimal, tasteful fetish wear may be appropriate.



Here are a few examples:



Fetish Burqa

Loudmouth gag

 

[Kerfuffle]

[quote name="Stu Grimson"]



Good lord... I wish that was a law everywhere.



Not in the United States. Do you NOT GET WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING?!?!? The Islam practiced in the US is predominately NOT RADICAL. Just like you used to be able to beat your wife if she talked in church for Christians 500 years ago. Religions evolve and only the idiots that don't evolve with the religion to suit today's world are the radicals.[/quote]

Don't change the subject. You were pointing out that Catholics discriminate against women just as islam does against women - as if the two were equal. I pointed out several examples in which women are horribly treated by the Muslim faith. The only Catholic offense is that women can't be priests. Sorry - but that's not even remotely on the same level.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Mikita's Helmet"]RE: Organized Religion



I think most organized religions suck (I was raised Catholic), and in my opinion, anyone who says there is just one god, one religion is talking out of their ass, just as anyone who says they know, for sure, that God doesn't exist is.



I consider myself a lapsed agnostic, I don't know if God exists, it's just impossible to know. Regardless, the way I live my life is I try (and quite often fail) and treat others the way I'd like to be treated. It usually works out pretty good for me.

[/quote]





You sir are an atheist.



Atheism isn't necissarily a claim "you know God doesn't exist"(it can be if you so choose). Saying you don't know, and choosing not to throw your lot into a religion on faith, is still being an atheist. That is the category i fall in. Agnosticism, would be believing in some sort of creator, yet not any form of religion, which is similiar but not equal to deism.

 

[bri]

Ewwwwwwwwww I would never ever wear one of those things. I am claustrophobic and it would drive me insane. I wouldn't be able to breathe.

 

[Kerfuffle]

[quote name="TSD"]

You sir are an atheist.



Atheism isn't necissarily a claim "you know God doesn't exist"(it can be if you so choose). Saying you don't know, and choosing not to throw your lot into a religion on faith, is still being an atheist. That is the category i fall in. Agnosticism, would be believing in some sort of creator, yet not any form of religion, which is similiar but not equal to deism.[/quote]

I look at it this way. I'd rather believe in God and be wrong when I die (in that case I'll never know it cause I'll just be six feet under) than not believe and be wrong when I die. Take a chance and believe in God. There is only an upside.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]

Don't change the subject. You were pointing out that Catholics discriminate against women just as islam does against women - as if the two were equal. I pointed out several examples in which women are horribly treated by the Muslim faith. The only Catholic offense is that women can't be priests. Sorry - but that's not even remotely on the same level.[/quote]





Funny, none of the muslims Ive met treat their wives like that.



AGAIN DING DING. Relgion is what the individual makes it! Christianity has had to adjust to the changing of western society. Don't think for a minute a christian theocracy would be any better than muslim sharia law

 

[mikita's helmet]

[quote name="TSD"]





You sir are an atheist.



Atheism isn't necissarily a claim "you know God doesn't exist"(it can be if you so choose). Saying you don't know, and choosing not to throw your lot into a religion on faith, is still being an atheist. That is the category i fall in. Agnosticism, would be believing in some sort of creator, yet not any form of religion, which is similiar but not equal to deism.[/quote]



I should add that I used to believe that there was something else, now I just hope there is.

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]

I look at it this way. I'd rather believe in God and be wrong when I die (in that case I'll never know it cause I'll just be six feet under) than not believe and be wrong when I die. Take a chance and believe in God. There is only an upside.[/quote]

Not necessarily true for those that believe in judgement.

Anyway, how about that burqa?

 

[Guest]

[quote name="BlackhawkPaul"]

Not necessarily true for those that believe in judgement.[/quote]





Well in most extreme cases his theory of thought is going to have him going to hell.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Kerfuffle"]

I look at it this way. I'd rather believe in God and be wrong when I die (in that case I'll never know it cause I'll just be six feet under) than not believe and be wrong when I die. Take a chance and believe in God. There is only an upside.[/quote]



Ok great. What if the God you chose is the wrong one? Then you are no better off than me. There are a multitude of religions that claim to be the one true religion.



You're only a christian because you were born into a christo centric society, I was once a catholic, it sure as hell wasn't by choice, but at one time I believed all that crap because my whole life people said believe me its true dont question it. if you were born in india you would most likely be a hindu, in tibet a buddhist, Japan, buddhist, shinto or christian(only because of the spanish), Middle east likely Islam, minorities of judaism or christianity. in Iran, there are actually a few minor religious sects, depending on the region. Then there are the countless relgions people believed to be true when the isrealites were some little tribe in the middle of nowhere and the only ones that believed in their God (who Ironically enough favored their tribe above all others, go figure).



So my friend, choosing christianity you take the same roll on the roulette wheel as me, I doubt Odin would be happy to find out you worshipped the pale christ.

 

[mikita's helmet]

[quote name="TSD"]Don't think for a minute a christian theocracy would be any better than muslim sharia law[/quote]



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY[/youtube]

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

[quote name="R K"]





Well in most extreme cases his theory of thought is going to have him going to hell.[/quote]

If I believed in it, I'd rather go there anyway.

All of my family and people I admire will be there.

Except Hitler. **** that dude.

 

[mikita's helmet]

[quote name="bri"]Ewwwwwwwwww I would never ever wear one of those things. I am claustrophobic and it would drive me insane. I wouldn't be able to breathe.[/quote]



There's a zipper for the mouth and nostril holes to breathe.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

[quote name="TSD"]



Ok great. What if the God you chose is the wrong one? Then you are no better off than me. There are a multitude of religions that claim to be the one true religion.



Your only a christian because you were born into a christo centric society, if you were born in india you would most likely be a hindu, in tibet a buddhist, Japan, buddhist, shinto or christian, Middle east likely Islam, minorities of judaism or christianity. in Iran, there are actually a few minor religious, depending on the region. Then there are the countless relgions peple believed to be true when the isrealites were some little tribe in the middle of nowhere and the only ones that believed in their God (who Ironically enough favored their tribe above all others, go figure).



So my friend, choosing christianity you take the same roll on the roulette wheel as me, I doubt Odin would be happy to find out you worshipped the pale christ.[/quote]



I am Christian and there is one HUGE issue I have with my religion. So basically if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and believe he died on the cross for your sins you go to Heaven, if you don't, you go to Hell.



It states in the Bible that God will also take the innocent (children who don't know right from wrong) but says NOTHING about taking people who have NEVER heard the word of God. So basically if you don't hear the message, you're screwed.



Whereas in Islam, if you have never heard the word of Allah (people try to say it's the same God but it really isn't as Islam only believe's Jesus to be a prophet and not the son of God), on the day of judgement you have the option to realize Allah is the lord of lords and convert to Islam and go to Heaven.

 

[TSD]

[quote name="Stu Grimson"]



I am Christian and there is one HUGE issue I have with my religion. So basically if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and believe he died on the cross for your sins you go to Heaven, if you don't, you go to Hell.



It states in the Bible that God will also take the innocent (children who don't know right from wrong) but says NOTHING about taking people who have NEVER heard the word of God. So basically if you don't hear the message, you're screwed.



Whereas in Islam, if you have never heard the word of Allah (people try to say it's the same God but it really isn't as Islam only believe's Jesus to be a prophet and not the son of God), on the day of judgement you have the option to realize Allah is the lord of lords and convert to Islam and go to Heaven.[/quote]



You mean like the countless American Indians that lived and died before the Spanish arrived in 1492? Idiot indians, they totally should have known about jesus who lived and died in a land they had no idea even existed who was the son of a God they had never even heard of.

 

[Kerfuffle]

[quote name="TSD"]



Ok great. What if the God you chose is the wrong one? Then you are no better off than me. There are a multitude of religions that claim to be the one true religion.

[/quote]

I only believe in one God so I'm not afraid of choosing the wrong one. I don't believe there's a one true religion since all pretty much seem to worship a higher power that loves and forgives. You should come back to the Catholic faith - you are always welcome.

 

[winos5]

Getting back to the Burqa ban.... I think the security issues are perhaps overstated. I've personally seen the spouses of foreign military in full Burqa on US military installations and it was never an issue.



I can understand asking them to remove it briefly (privacy/modesty taken into consideration if need be) to verify ID, or during an exam at the hospital ect...



If individual women choose to wear it and can't bear to remove it while attending schools/other functions that require it be removed I think the burden falls on the individual to make other accomadations, not said institution( ie if you won't remove your burqa at public school, look for alternatives like home school, a privaste islamic school that allows it ect...).