The Jake Arrieta Appreciation Thread

[TC in Mississippi]

It's nonsense because the only one's who give a shit are the fans. Ask Areitta what's the most important thing on his plate....it damn sure isn't the Cy Young. I think he might be looking at a game coming up in about a week or so. That game is the season....CY Award is eye candy.

I guarantee you that Arrieta in his heart of hearts wants to win it. That said I also think if you told him he wouldn't win the Cy Young but would pitch in the World Series instead he'd take that ten times out of ten.

 

[Bear Pride]

This discussion has become nonsense.

Compare PITCHING stats.

That means the following are completely moot: The offense, the manager, the rookie, the teammate on the pitching staff.

NONE of those things will play any factor in voters' choice.

And to me, this is everything that is wrong with baseball today. There are just too many people that are metric heads, imo, and the bottom line is that Jake has plain kicked ass since 3 games before the AS break, on a team EVERYONE said wasn't that good. He's overcome a lot of shit, and he flat out deserves this.

This sounds very familiar to a convo we had in the pre season, and I was 'Schooled' about MR metrics over there in Oakland. Metrics plays a part, but it doesn't play the game. People that are nothing but metrics, and discount everything else .... well, I suggest, sucked at actually playing this game we Love.

American League West
Team	W	L	Pct.	GB	RS	RA	Diff	Home	Road	East	Cent	West	L10	Strk
Texas	84	72	.538	-	713	707	6	39-36	45-36	23-11	16-14	34-38	5-5	L 3
Houston (5)	83	74	.529	1½	688	594	94	53-28	30-46	18-16	14-18	37-37	6-4	W 3
L.A. Angels (5)	82	74	.526	2	628	641	-13	48-31	34-43	16-16	17-17	41-29	8-2	W 6
Seattle (E)	74	83	.471	10½	634	702	-68	34-42	40-41	15-17	14-20	37-34	3-7	L 6
Oakland (E)	65	92	.414	19½	672	704	-32	34-47	31-45	10-23	14-19	30-41	2-8	L 3

 

[Diehardfan]

I guarantee you that Arrieta in his heart of hearts wants to win it. That said I also think if you told him he wouldn't win the Cy Young but would pitch in the World Series instead he'd take that ten times out of ten.

Maddux, Jenkins, Sutcliffe, Sosa, Dawson, Banks and Sandburg. All won the MVP or the CY wearing a Cub uniform....none wore that uniform in a World Series. Only time they really got even close was Ryno and Sutcliffe in the same year. Dawson and Banks won theirs on last place teams.

It all adds up to one big, steaming pile of crap.

I don't give a shit about individual awards...they mean nothing.

I want a Cub team in the World Series....that's it.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[brett05]

LOL. Making excuses for Jake about having the ROY and MOY? How about this one? Greinke and Kershaw are backed by a team with an outrageous payroll.

:lol: You missed the point of the post entirely. It was a jest post in essense to the serious one BP posted.

 

[brett05]

I guarantee you that Arrieta in his heart of hearts wants to win it. That said I also think if you told him he wouldn't win the Cy Young but would pitch in the World Series instead he'd take that ten times out of ten.

As would any pitcher worth a grain.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

By the way if the CY this year, with three worthy candidates, really is a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately contest as I and others have suggested then Clayton Kershaw sure raised his had and said "hi, I'm still here" with his performance last night. A 1 hitter with 13 K's? Damn.

 

[brett05]

This weekend is going to be incredible for those three pitchers.

 

[CSF77]

This weekend is going to be incredible for those three pitchers.

I agree. Kershaw just dominated a game he needed to vs one of the leagues dominate aces. That is no small feat. Add to it Zack lacked to pull the same off vs a past his prime Peavy.

Those details are weighing in on a close race. All 3 would be a sure I in any other season. This will go beyond the numbers and will be judged by the impact their performances are. Zack ended his day behind. Got lucky to escape a loss. Kershaw owned a league ace. Jack shut down a 8 game win streak in a 1 hitter. Those are statement games in building their cases.

 

[SilenceS]

And to me, this is everything that is wrong with baseball today. There are just too many people that are metric heads, imo, and the bottom line is that Jake has plain kicked ass since 3 games before the AS break, on a team EVERYONE said wasn't that good. He's overcome a lot of shit, and he flat out deserves this.

This sounds very familiar to a convo we had in the pre season, and I was 'Schooled' about MR metrics over there in Oakland. Metrics plays a part, but it doesn't play the game. People that are nothing but metrics, and discount everything else .... well, I suggest, sucked at actually playing this game we Love.

American League West
Team	W	L	Pct.	GB	RS	RA	Diff	Home	Road	East	Cent	West	L10	Strk
Texas	84	72	.538	-	713	707	6	39-36	45-36	23-11	16-14	34-38	5-5	L 3
Houston (5)	83	74	.529	1½	688	594	94	53-28	30-46	18-16	14-18	37-37	6-4	W 3
L.A. Angels (5)	82	74	.526	2	628	641	-13	48-31	34-43	16-16	17-17	41-29	8-2	W 6
Seattle (E)	74	83	.471	10½	634	702	-68	34-42	40-41	15-17	14-20	37-34	3-7	L 6
Oakland (E)	65	92	.414	19½	672	704	-32	34-47	31-45	10-23	14-19	30-41	2-8	L 3

What? All you did was beat your chest about Theo in another post and how great he is and the front office. They are straight metrics. 99.9% of their decisions are based off metrics. How can you say how wonderful they are then create this post?

Oh and Billy Beane was a top prospect and made it further than any of us here.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

What? All you did was beat your chest about Theo in another post and how great he is and the front office. They are straight metrics. 99.9% of their decisions are based off metrics. How can you say how wonderful they are then create this post?

I disagree that they are 99.9% metrics. In fact I think the fact that they bring in so many other factors is what makes them unique. One of the examples is their habit of favoring character over raw skill. They targeted Lester as much for his intangibles and leadership as his numbers. They drafted guys like Kris Bryant, Albert Almora and Kyle Schwarber for their incredible mix of skill and character. They also are known to pay attention to some old school voices that other metric based organizations wouldn't. They believe in the eye test as check to statistics. The metrics at the heart, there is no question of that, but there are other factors that pure metrics guys would scoff at.

 

[SilenceS]

I disagree that they are 99.9% metrics. In fact I think the fact that they bring in so many other factors is what makes them unique. One of the examples is their habit of favoring character over raw skill. They targeted Lester as much for his intangibles and leadership as his numbers. They drafted guys like Kris Bryant, Albert Almora and Kyle Schwarber for their incredible mix of skill and character. They also are known to pay attention to some old school voices that other metric based organizations wouldn't. They believe in the eye test as check to statistics. The metrics at the heart, there is no question of that, but there are other factors that pure metrics guys would scoff at.

Eh, while that is true to an extent. They use metrics to even look at a guy. The Bryant and Schwarber picks were based off bat over arm. Schwarber was because he could be signed cheaper and the Cubs got somewhat "lucky". Almora was an over achiever that they liked. But, you are short changing how much the metrics are used. It was said last year that Renteria lineup was coming from Theo and Jed from a computer with specialized metrics. No team uses all metrics because that wouldn't work and my 99.9% is high. You are correct but it was more to make a point. So, lets say the majority of decisions and thought process is based on metrics. It also has nothing to do with how high the guys played ball up to.

 

[Diehardfan]

IMOP, Sabermetrics is way, way over the top. My God, there are stats for everything...a lot of them are well thought out while others are just too crazy. But still,this forum would be like the Sox forum without the conversations these statistics generate. Personally, now closing in on 60 years from the first time I saw a baseball game and I still favor a seeing is believing strategy. You can throw every stat in the book at me but until I see someone actually play the game, I'm not buying in on the hype.

 

[Bear Pride]

What? All you did was beat your chest about Theo in another post and how great he is and the front office. They are straight metrics. 99.9% of their decisions are based off metrics. How can you say how wonderful they are then create this post?

Oh and Billy Beane was a top prospect and made it further than any of us here.

I guess you remember that convo. Billy Boy's metrics didn't do a thing this year, and when I told you so at the start of the year, all you did is give me shit. Mr Metric learned a lesson that 99.9% metrics is not the way to go. You still have to take other things into consideration.

I disagree that Theo is 'all' metrics, and I think the fact that he is not is what makes him smart. Does he use metrics.... yes. Keep signing high ERA pitchers for cheap with low WHIP and you're going to get lucky.

You mention Kyle .... I remember many convo's about the Cubs needing to sign pitchers. But if Theo was 'all about' metrics, why did he sign so many hitters in a pitcher dominated league? To me, that's going flat out against the stats.

Instead, he had a vision, a plan, aided by metrics, that's looking a whole lot better than Billy Boys approach right now!

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I guess you remember that convo. Billy Boy's metrics didn't do a thing this year, and when I told you so at the start of the year, all you did is give me shit. Mr Metric learned a lesson that 99.9% metrics is not the way to go. You still have to take other things into consideration.

I disagree that Theo is 'all' metrics, and I think the fact that he is not is what makes him smart. Does he use metrics.... yes. Keep signing high ERA pitchers for cheap with low WHIP and you're going to get lucky.

You mention Kyle .... I remember many convo's about the Cubs needing to sign pitchers. But if Theo was 'all about' metrics, why did he sign so many hitters in a pitcher dominated league? To me, that's going flat out against the stats.

Instead, he had a vision, a plan, aided by metrics, that's looking a whole lot better than Billy Boys approach right now!

What I've always felt about Billy Beane is that his numbers tell him lies, sure they tell him truths too but he can't separate. Trading Cespedes last year was proof of that to me. If you watched that team last year early it was Cespedes that made them go in ways both quantifiable and not but likely more the latter. Beane thought when they were still sliding after the big trade for Shark that pitching was key, it may have been but they didn't need Jon Lester if it meant giving up Cespedes. Jonny Gomes was a poor substitute. Granted Boston then couldn't get rid of Cespedes fast enough but that's another story. As I kind of alluded to above Theo and company are cognizant about what their numbers can't see and bring in people to see through those cracks. They really do have some crusty baseball scouts on the payroll and Joe Maddon understands the numbers but goes beyond them too. I firmly believe that advanced analytics are the right was to build a baseball team but players are human beings and the eye test and emotion are part of the equation too.

 

[CSF77]

Metrics helps qualify talent. By there are other factors like chemistry. You can be hella talented but a huge a-hole to deal with. Not many are going to put up with it. Why he traded Cepesedes? Who knows. Matters little right now.

 

[SilenceS]

The A's have been one of the most successful franchises for the past decade with a quarter of the payroll. What Beane has done in Oakland is about as good as a job as you can do. Also, Beane goes to Boston. Theo Epstein probably isnt the name he is today and Beane has a title.

Remember, Beane turned them down and Theo was hired. I have never been an all metrics guy but to say Theo and them arent the majority metrics are just being blind to it.

Oh and BearPride, going away from arms has nothing to with metrics. It was strategy based off the epidemic of pitching injuries and the new CBA. You cant overslot like you used to so to spend the majority of your draft money on a bigger risk which pitching is always the bigger risk was something they did not want to do. So, they went hitting and figured if they collect enough premium bats they can trade some off if needed. It was a smart strategy, but see this is where people mistake their strategy. They may have went bats first but then they went heavy pitching. Every draft has followed the same strategy. Its like anything. People want to dismiss metrics when it doesnt fit their argument and want to use them when it does fit their argument. This team was built on the majority of metrics with different aspects mixed in. Its what good teams do. This isnt a "Trouble with the curve" type team. lol

 

[TC in Mississippi]

The A's have been one of the most successful franchises for the past decade with a quarter of the payroll. What Beane has done in Oakland is about as good as a job as you can do. Also, Beane goes to Boston. Theo Epstein probably isnt the name he is today and Beane has a title.

Remember, Beane turned them down and Theo was hired. I have never been an all metrics guy but to say Theo and them arent the majority metrics are just being blind to it.

Oh and BearPride, going away from arms has nothing to with metrics. It was strategy based off the epidemic of pitching injuries and the new CBA. You cant overslot like you used to so to spend the majority of your draft money on a bigger risk which pitching is always the bigger risk was something they did not want to do. So, they went hitting and figured if they collect enough premium bats they can trade some off if needed. It was a smart strategy, but see this is where people mistake their strategy. They may have went bats first but then they went heavy pitching. Every draft has followed the same strategy. Its like anything. People want to dismiss metrics when it doesnt fit their argument and want to use them when it does fit their argument. This team was built on the majority of metrics with different aspects mixed in. Its what good teams do. This isnt a "Trouble with the curve" type team. lol

I never said they weren't metric guys first. It's the foundation behind everything they do. They just open themselves up to more than that which I think makes a difference. I think Andrew Friedman and Jeff Luhnow do to. Beane has been incredibly successful on a low budget, there is no arguing that. When he does make a mistake, as I think he did with Cespedes, it's because he let's numbers tell the entire story. You said 99.9% in terms of the Cubs, I would say more like 90% with the other ten including things like hiring Maddon who came from old school traditions but has a firm grasp of metrics, their emphasis on character on the draft process and their employment of a few well place old school scouts. In 2015 if you're not metrics based you're not winning.

 

[SilenceS]

I never said they weren't metric guys first. It's the foundation behind everything they do. They just open themselves up to more than that which I think makes a difference. I think Andrew Friedman and Jeff Luhnow do to. Beane has been incredibly successful on a low budget, there is no arguing that. When he does make a mistake, as I think he did with Cespedes, it's because he let's numbers tell the entire story. You said 99.9% in terms of the Cubs, I would say more like 90% with the other ten including things like hiring Maddon who came from old school traditions but has a firm grasp of metrics, their emphasis on character on the draft process and their employment of a few well place old school scouts. In 2015 if you're not metrics based you're not winning.

I retracted that much because I was just trying to show a point. I agree with your statement. Also, Cepesdes was a pretty average player for Oakland. But, I will say when Cepesdes was signed a lot of baseball people thought Beane would trade him before he did. Thats how much cash strapped the A's make his payroll. All GM's make mistakes but BEane cant hide his with buying someone. Thats a huge difference.

 

[brett05]

Jayson Stark has Zach. It also appears that perhaps many of the votes are already in before this weekend.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13788288/handing-my-season-ending-mlb-awards


You probably think this is a fun job, right? Getting paid to write baseball award columns? Well, here's where the fun ends and my worst nightmare arrives. I have two historic seasons to somehow compare -- Greinke's season-long brilliance versus Jake Arrieta's astonishing second half -- plus Clayton Kershaw's regularly scheduled insane dominance. I have only one award I'm allowed to hand out. And I'm stuck with a deadline that forces me to pick one of these men before they make their final start of the year, in a race that's so close that those final starts could change everything.

If this isn't a formula designed to allow me to set a new ESPN.com record for hate mail, I don't know what is. But since I'm not going to wimp out and pick co-winners, here we go. Face it; this is essentially a tie (with Kershaw just a hair behind, on my scorecard). And if all we had to do was pick the best pitcher in the sport at this particular moment, I think even Greinke would vote for Arrieta. But the season didn't start Aug. 1, or June 21, or whatever date you think Arrieta morphed into Christy Mathewson. It started in April. And over this entire season, Greinke is the man with the slightly better ERA, adjusted ERA, WHIP and opponent OPS. Can we keep in mind that Greinke's 1.68 ERA would be the best since Greg Maddux's 1.63 masterpiece 20 years ago? That Greinke's 0.85 WHIP would be one of the five best in the live-ball era? That his ERA has never started with a "2" after any start all season? Just passing that along for everyone who thinks there's no way anyone but Arrieta should possibly win. Got it? Great. Now start typing those emails.

My "ballot": (1) Greinke, (2) Arrieta, (3) Kershaw, (4) Jacob deGrom, (5) Max Scherzer.

 

[CSF77]

Jayson Stark has Zach. It also appears that perhaps many of the votes are already in before this weekend.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13788288/handing-my-season-ending-mlb-awards


You probably think this is a fun job, right? Getting paid to write baseball award columns? Well, here's where the fun ends and my worst nightmare arrives. I have two historic seasons to somehow compare -- Greinke's season-long brilliance versus Jake Arrieta's astonishing second half -- plus Clayton Kershaw's regularly scheduled insane dominance. I have only one award I'm allowed to hand out. And I'm stuck with a deadline that forces me to pick one of these men before they make their final start of the year, in a race that's so close that those final starts could change everything.

If this isn't a formula designed to allow me to set a new ESPN.com record for hate mail, I don't know what is. But since I'm not going to wimp out and pick co-winners, here we go. Face it; this is essentially a tie (with Kershaw just a hair behind, on my scorecard). And if all we had to do was pick the best pitcher in the sport at this particular moment, I think even Greinke would vote for Arrieta. But the season didn't start Aug. 1, or June 21, or whatever date you think Arrieta morphed into Christy Mathewson. It started in April. And over this entire season, Greinke is the man with the slightly better ERA, adjusted ERA, WHIP and opponent OPS. Can we keep in mind that Greinke's 1.68 ERA would be the best since Greg Maddux's 1.63 masterpiece 20 years ago? That Greinke's 0.85 WHIP would be one of the five best in the live-ball era? That his ERA has never started with a "2" after any start all season? Just passing that along for everyone who thinks there's no way anyone but Arrieta should possibly win. Got it? Great. Now start typing those emails.

My "ballot": (1) Greinke, (2) Arrieta, (3) Kershaw, (4) Jacob deGrom, (5) Max Scherzer.

Can't argue it