The Jake Arrieta Appreciation Thread

[TL1961]

Well think we found our game 2 starter combo. Hendricks and Cahill.

....says another fan who doesn't realize how many really good games Jon Lester has thrown.

 

[TL1961]

Been a great day. Hendricks figured it out. Cahill is looking dominate in his new role. Cards won and lost Piscotty to a concusion. Yadi is out for the season and might miss the play offs. They lost their 2 and still beat the Pirates. Grenke gave up 2 when he needed to be perfect to keep Arrieta from surpassing him.

Oh and Cubs won.... Well not expecting them to take home field but I believe they can get rid of the biggest thorn in the NL in a 1 game. Cards are looking like they will be going in with half a engine running...

Ya go Cards. Keep the Pirates lined up for a 1 game out.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as saying Greinke "needed to be perfect to keep Jake from passing him", as he still leads. But hopefully he gives up a few more.

 

[CSF77]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as saying Greinke "needed to be perfect to keep Jake from passing him", as he still leads. But hopefully he gives up a few more.

Like what ESPN was saying last night. Votes tend to look more at what is current. Arrieta flirting with another no-no vs Grenke missing a start with a cramp (at the right time) then getting beat up out the gates... Ya voters will look at that stuff also. It is not all about the numbers.

 

[SilenceS]

Cards will have no Martinez. Wainwright will only pitch out of the bullpen. Piscotty was carted off tonight. Molina is hurt. Cards are limping into the playoffs.

 

[TL1961]

Like what ESPN was saying last night. Votes tend to look more at what is current. Arrieta flirting with another no-no vs Grenke missing a start with a cramp (at the right time) then getting beat up out the gates... Ya voters will look at that stuff also. It is not all about the numbers.

I understand that. And I hear many a writer make that argument as well.

I am simply saying I won't make that argument just because it works for my guy. If my guy still won ERA and WHIP and lost the Cy to a man who shrunk the lead, I'd have a hard time with it.

But the bottom line is, it is as close as any race I have ever seen, and if I were voting, I'd split my vote.

I certainly am pulling for Arrieta, and I agree there's a case to be made. I am just trying to fairly look at it without regards to who wears what logo.

 

[TL1961]

Cards will have no Martinez. Wainwright will only pitch out of the bullpen. Piscotty was carted off tonight. Molina is hurt. Cards are limping into the playoffs.

They stunk out loud in 2006 and won it all. They were dead to rights several times in 2011 and won it all. I will believe they are dead only after they are knocked out, and it will still take me a few hours to believe it.

I don't need to see them have some sort of "Rudy" moment.....he says, mixing metaphors and references to teams he hates.

 

[JZsportsfan]

Giants pen just blew what what have been a Greinke loss

No sure if that would change anything, but certainly wouldn't hurt Arrieta's CY chances

 

[beckdawg]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/jake-arrietas-argument-for-the-best-season-half-ever/

I feel like the comments in this about him basically being pretty close to peak Pedro Martinez in the 2nd half pretty crazy considering just how good Pedro was in 2000.

 

[Boobaby1]

They stunk out loud in 2006 and won it all. They were dead to rights several times in 2011 and won it all. I will believe they are dead only after they are knocked out, and it will still take me a few hours to believe it.

I don't need to see them have some sort of "Rudy" moment.....he says, mixing metaphors and references to teams he hates.

The most feared Cardinal teams to win the WS are the one's that are questionable at best, or are limping in.

They will find a way to somehow have Wainright start in place of Martinez (which he is suppose to start Wednesday), Pena becomes the second coming of Johnny Bench, and players like Peter Bourjos and Pete Kozma become co-MVP's in the WS.

I've seen this played too many times for them.

 

[brett05]

I'm ranking them Arrieta, Grenke, Kershaw. The total domination of Arrieta and him willing the Cubs to the play offs will play into the vote. When you weigh all 3. 2 are on the same team. Arrieta had no pier at his level. And his team holds a better record mostly due to his efforts.

Every semi losing streak snuffed out by him. Team starts heading in the wrong direction he just shuts down the other team.

Neither Grenke or Kershaw has affected their team in such a way this year.

Getting into every thing else. It is way too close to even try to pick them apart. All 3 are excelling in something. But I believe the biggest factor will be is the fact Jake had to do it alone for the most part. Lester came up short.

With out Arrieta's dominance the Cubs would be sitting near 80 wins if that. maybe worse even.

So Team MVP all the way. Cy young. Well I can't see them giving it to anyone else.

You made a great argument for MVP for Jake, but not Cy Young.

 

[brett05]

Maybe, but it's a moot point because he's not going to get it. Could be because he won last year, and it could be because of flashier seasons from the other two but it isn't going to Kershaw That leaves Arrieta and Greinke and while two weeks ago I would have said it was Greinke I think it's going to Arrieta. It's always has been a what have you done for me lately league. Now if Greinke goes out and pitches a no no tonight then we might have a different discussion.

If Zach would have pitched a no-no he'd be a unanimous winner. This comes down to one more start each.

 

[brett05]

Wrong.

Please bring back objective PR

 

[TC in Mississippi]

If Zach would have pitched a no-no he'd be a unanimous winner. This comes down to one more start each.

I agree but here's the thing Greinke will be on a pitch count, Mattingly has said as much, and will likely pitch 5 innings. Granted he might be allowed to continue if he's got a no hitter going but if not he'll pitch the 5. Mattingly is a very much by the book, modern manager. Joe Maddon is...well not. Arrieta will be on no pitch count. If he's going great he's going to be allowed to stay in almost as long as he wants giving him the advantage of possibly having a great game where Greinke won't have that chance. The flip side is that Arrieta will have more chances to make a mistake that will hurt him but with the roll he's on I don't see that happening. As I said last night and many in the media are saying this morning there is an element of "what have you done for me lately" going on. Arrieta is the shiny new toy. If Greinke does nothing to lose an award he's been the front runner for all year long while doing nothing but maintaining his excellence should he feel like he got jobbed? Damn straight and no one will blame him.

As people here and elsewhere have said for weeks there are three deserving candidates here. I even agree with you that in an advanced statistical analysis it should go to Kershaw. That's not happening for various reasons including winning last year. Still if any of the three were to win there would be no grave injustice done. The Cubs have the PR machine whirling away, Greinke gets the final look. Most people here want Arrieta to win, duh we're Cubs fans, no one is going to feel Jake got jobbed if he doesn't. My guess, based on how I see the winds blowing, is that Geinke in his last start will be in the unfortunate position of having to overtake Arrieta in his last start with a great performance while on a pitch count. Is that fair. Absolutely not. It's going to Jake.

 

[CSF77]

Like I said, it is hard to argue against Arrieta right now.

Also the MVP is a BS award right now. It should never go to a guy on a team that has a hard time pushing past .500. How is that considered valuable?

The game is sqewed towards stats too much. Vs what that player physically does on the field.

Sure Harper's numbers are staggering but did he impose his will to make his team a contender? No that team is stacked with talent and it fell flat on its face. Even with Harper's huge season and Scherzer as a ace.

Sure he deserves a hitting award. His numbers justify it. But not a award based off of being valuable.

To me what holds the most value: leading your team to the play offs.


On the Cy young. I believe wins should carry the most weight. Ya I know a old stat. But who was Cy Young? Did he ever lead in ERA? No. What he was was the all times wins leader. Sure back then guys were on 4 man rotations and he would rack up 40 wins per year. The point is that award was based off of his wins and I can not see any arguement that disallows it carring much weight.

Should there be an award for lowest era. Yes.

Maybe just like the batting/home run title etc pitching should also have those going. Just Cy-young needs to be sqewed torwards wins due to it being based off of it.

Just my opinion.

 

[brett05]

Like I said, it is hard to argue against Arrieta right now.

Also the MVP is a BS award right now. It should never go to a guy on a team that has a hard time pushing past .500. How is that considered valuable?

The game is sqewed towards stats too much. Vs what that player physically does on the field.

Sure Harper's numbers are staggering but did he impose his will to make his team a contender? No that team is stacked with talent and it fell flat on its face. Even with Harper's huge season and Scherzer as a ace.

Sure he deserves a hitting award. His numbers justify it. But not a award based off of being valuable.

To me what holds the most value: leading your team to the play offs.


On the Cy young. I believe wins should carry the most weight. Ya I know a old stat. But who was Cy Young? Did he ever lead in ERA? No. What he was was the all times wins leader. Sure back then guys were on 4 man rotations and he would rack up 40 wins per year. The point is that award was based off of his wins and I can not see any arguement that disallows it carring much weight.

Should there be an award for lowest era. Yes.

Maybe just like the batting/home run title etc pitching should also have those going. Just Cy-young needs to be sqewed torwards wins due to it being based off of it.

Just my opinion.

CSF77

Someone has hacked into your account.

 

[CSF77]

I look at it this way: baseball is a competitive sport that winning games for your team should hold value. In the modern age we are looking too much into the stats side of it and devaluating the purpose of the game.

The players get it. They are there to win games. The ones that side track things are the watchers. They want to place value on players by placing numeric values to their worth.

On the earlier comment: Lester fell short. If you asked him that question I'll be he would agree. He was not the guy pushing his team to the play offs. He took a back seat to Arrieta.

Sure he has put up plenty of quality starts and solid numbers. But ask any player that question. Their answer will be. I did not win enough games for my team.

It is why they play the game.

 

[CSF77]

CSF77

Someone has hacked into your account.

No. I've always felt this way. We get too wrapped up into stats

 

[brett05]

No. I've always felt this way. We get too wrapped up into stats

OK, Then let's correct errors.

Cy Young was the league leader in ERA twice in his career. He never won 40 games. He averaged 20 wins in a normalized 162 game season.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngcy01.shtml

Wins are important. Over the long haul. Not on the short term. Felix Hernandez broke through the myth of wins on the short term basis being important.
At one point Nolan Ryan was the all time leader in losing 1-0 games. By your logic, he was not a worthy pitcher during those games because he did not get the W.

Wins matter, but on the short term scale like is used for a yearly award, it's behind a ton of other statistics. The article that Parade_Rain posted the other day shows that.

I'm ok with you disagreeing with it. Based on your other posts, I am shocked this is the hill you choose. But it is your right to make a stand where you see fit. Not sure if anyone is going to agree at all with your importance on wins though for an individual pitcher.

 

[chibears55]

OK, Then let's correct errors.

Cy Young was the league leader in ERA twice in his career. He never won 40 games. He averaged 20 wins in a normalized 162 game season.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngcy01.shtml

Wins are important. Over the long haul. Not on the short term. Felix Hernandez broke through the myth of wins on the short term basis being important.
At one point Nolan Ryan was the all time leader in losing 1-0 games. By your logic, he was not a worthy pitcher during those games because he did not get the W.

Wins matter, but on the short term scale like is used for a yearly award, it's behind a ton of other statistics. The article that Parade_Rain posted the other day shows that.

I'm ok with you disagreeing with it. Based on your other posts, I am shocked this is the hill you choose. But it is your right to make a stand where you see fit. Not sure if anyone is going to agree at all with your importance on wins though for an individual pitcher.

If wins weren't important, then why does baseball still glorify it?

The HOF still recgonizes win totals...

Winning 20 games is still a great achievement. ..

How many times did we hear about Maddox winning 15+ games for X amount of years...


Yes i agree that a pitcher winning, losing, or ND comes down to many things team wise but there a reason why certain pitchers win 15 to 20 + games yearly over others and that because they give their team a better chance to win while their on the mound going deeper into games then the others..

So, i just disagree with anyone who discredits the importance of a pitcher win total. .. yes sometimes you can be a Felix Hernandez and have a team that lets you down, but for the most part a starting pitcher is as good or bad as his win/lost total indicates

 

[CSF77]

22 years. His high point in games started was 49. that is an avg of 37 over that span. CG was the norm. Would get 30 plus per. Totally different era. 400+ IP.

put it this way: 7356 IP he only SO 2803. 3.4 SO/9. FIP would have been 2.84 over his career.

He is the all time wins leader but he is also the all time loss leader also at 316.

If you really look at his body of work he fails to live up to his own award standards set by the modern age. What he has going for him is a different era of play.