The Most Important Move That MUST Be Done Before Trade Deadline.

[Axl Rose]

i honestly feel paxgar is part of the reason nobody wants to play here....i think we need some new faces and clean up our image and make Chicago a more desirable place

but if you want to amount it to us having tough luck when it comes to getting stars, fine

lets look at how paxgar have failed to even bring in a 2nd ballhandler/scorer....its been what? 4-5 years?

the best one they had was nate and they let him go because of hinrich and teague who shouldn't even be on a NBA roster lol...they suck so bad they were forced to sign DJ Augustin who was CUT by the Raptors and sadly hes been our best PG this year lol

 

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

I'll admit I wasn't that involved in what OKC was doing with the Harden situation, but they essentially received a:

-Scoring Shooting Guard to replace the scoring that Harden did.
-A young SG with potential (hasnt worked out)
-A tall dude with potential who could replace Perkins if it works out (it didnt)

Now what could the Bulls have offered last year?
Of players they could have traded they had:
(Note: Gibson[extension], and freshly signed free agents Hinrich, Belinelli, Nate Robinson, Radmanovic, Cook could not be traded due to NBA rules)
-The $5 million expiring contract of Richard Hamilton who barely played in 2011-12
-Boozer's 3 years remaining on his contract. (OKC had just extended Sergio)
-Joakim Noah's 4 years remaining on his contract
-Luol Deng's 2 years remaining on his contract (they have Durant why the hell would they want Deng?)
-Jimmy Butler (Contract was small, would need more to match it)
-Marquis Teague (Small contract)


I'm out of players the Bulls could have traded.

So no, due to being a cap hell, and too many fresh new faces, the Bulls in no way could have gotten Harden unless they were willing to trade Joakim Noah.

This is where our FO needs to learn about "creativity", Scoot.

Without even getting creative, we had Mirotic (much better prospect than Lamb) & the Charlotte pick (better than/equivalent to the pick that netted Steven Adams) to offer. Those two assets combined are better than the entire package that Houston gave up, including an expiring Kevin Martin.

But to be fair, let's look at adding even more.

Kevin Martin was an expiring, right. If GarPax would have gotten creative, they could have found a third team to take Deng off of our hands in exchange for their expiring (Tyreke Evans, OJ Mayo, etc...). There were other expiring wing players that other teams were willing to let go of & I feel they would have loved to have Deng. We could have then shifted that expiring wing player to OKC.

 

[houheffna]

The following is what OKC received for Harden:

-Kevin Martin (was an expiring that played only one season in OKC)

-Jeremy Lamb (averaging 9 ppg & is reportedly being shopped by OKC)

-Steven Adams (the #12 overall pick from last draft that's averaging 4 ppg)

Are you telling me that GarPax could not get creative & offer a better package than Houston's?


The local media are his puppets. KC Johnson purposely sat on the Paxson/Del Negro fight story until the national media found out & reported it.

Just ask Jay Mariotti what happens when the local media gets on JR's bad side.


It seems that you're quick to crucify Rose for "supposedly" not recruiting, yet you're quick to defend the Bulls FO for not doing their job. I give GarPax a pass for the Summer of 2010 (Lebron, Bosh, & Wade were never coming here), but they never even attempted to get Harden. If you want to call Jerry Krause & Benny The Bull meeting McGrady & Duncan at the airport as "aggressively pursuing", then go right ahead.


If it's false, why hasn't this team added a 2nd superstar to help Rose?

I know what your response will be........Rose didn't recruit :smh: .

First, stop with the "crucify" bullshit....seriously. What a stupid word to use in this instance. I pointed out that he doesn't recruit. Something you didn't know until I showed you that he said it. Now you want to turn it around and act as if I blame Rose for the Bulls inability to land free agents? Pretty damn stupid if you ask me.

How do you know they didn't ATTEMPT to get Harden? And its obvious from what OKC got...the Bulls couldn't give OKC what they wanted. So yeah, I am telling you that. You spoke of offering Mirotic and the Charlotte pick? I don't see that being as appealing to OKC as what they got. A player in Europe for another two years and a conditional pick from Charlotte wasn't going to help them win a title right away. That is why Martin was brought in.

And ANY time you make Mariotti out to be some kind of a victim as if he was bullied out of town by Reinsdorf....you've lost the argument. That is just a horrible example.

 

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

First, stop with the "crucify" bullshit....seriously. What a stupid word to use in this instance. I pointed out that he doesn't recruit. Something you didn't know until I showed you that he said it. Now you want to turn it around and act as if I blame Rose for the Bulls inability to land free agents? Pretty damn stupid if you ask me.

Regarding the recruitment, you did indeed show me his quote that stated he didn't want to recruit. I acknowledged that, being that I'm not one of those posters that thinks I'm always right on issues. That being said, I also asked who exactly did he not recruit?.....I don't remember you ever answering that question. I also provided an article in another thread about Rose's agency recruiting LaMarcus Aldridge.....You never responded to that neither.

How do you know they didn't ATTEMPT to get Harden?

There were never any reports that they did attempt. Please show me differently.

And its obvious from what OKC got...the Bulls couldn't give OKC what they wanted. So yeah, I am telling you that. You spoke of offering Mirotic and the Charlotte pick? I don't see that being as appealing to OKC as what they got. A player in Europe for another two years and a conditional pick from Charlotte wasn't going to help them win a title right away. That is why Martin was brought in.

The pick that OKC used on Adams was also a conditional pick. Mirotic had/has way more value than Lamb. Kevin Martin was an expiring & I laid out a way that GarPax could have gotten creative by bringing in a third team, using Deng as bait.

And ANY time you make Mariotti out to be some kind of a victim as if he was bullied out of town by Reinsdorf....you've lost the argument. That is just a horrible example.

I'm not a huge fan of Mariotti, but he's an example of what happens when the local media calls out JR.

 

[Scoot26]

This is where our FO needs to learn about "creativity", Scoot.

Without even getting creative, we had Mirotic (much better prospect than Lamb) & the Charlotte pick (better than/equivalent to the pick that netted Steven Adams) to offer. Those two assets combined are better than the entire package that Houston gave up, including an expiring Kevin Martin.

But to be fair, let's look at adding even more.

Kevin Martin was an expiring, right. If GarPax would have gotten creative, they could have found a third team to take Deng off of our hands in exchange for their expiring (Tyreke Evans, OJ Mayo, etc...). There were other expiring wing players that other teams were willing to let go of & I feel they would have loved to have Deng. We could have then shifted that expiring wing player to OKC.

This isn't NBA 2k, 3 way trades aren't a dime a dozen.

And as Hou said, I got the feeling OKC wanted guys who could play right now and had potential (Lamb and Adams did) while Mirotic is still another year away at least and the Charlotte pick you dont really know.

And while this certainly isn't a defense of the front office, it is indeed a criticism, but I don't think they've ever thought of trading Luol Deng. Ever.

I'd love the front office to prove me wrong this season or next offseason by not keeping him around, but I just get this feeling that they treat Luol Deng like he is the Bulls 2nd superstar player, which he is far far far from being. But all the other shit, meh. I look at the realism surrounding it and just don't think the Bulls have ever had a good realistic chance at much of this shit.

Is their love affair with Luol Deng enough for me to join the chorus of fire GarPax? Probably. But I'm willing to wait out this season and see what happens. If he's brought back next year on a big contract then SP94 will be right and we can close down the forum because no further discussion will need to be had.

 

[houheffna]

Regarding the recruitment, you did indeed show me his quote that stated he didn't want to recruit. I acknowledged that, being that I'm not one of those posters that thinks I'm always right on issues. That being said, I also asked who exactly did he not recruit?.....I don't remember you ever answering that question. I also provided an article in another thread about Rose's agency recruiting LaMarcus Aldridge.....You never responded to that neither.


There were never any reports that they did attempt. Please show me differently.


The pick that OKC used on Adams was also a conditional pick. Mirotic had/has way more value than Lamb. Kevin Martin was an expiring & I laid out a way that GarPax could have gotten creative by bringing in a third team, using Deng as bait.


I'm not a huge fan of Mariotti, but he's an example of what happens when the local media calls out JR.

There is a big difference between agents recruiting and players recruiting. The agents didn't put together that big 3 in Miami. JR has a great relationship with Arn Tellem that predates any relationship with Rose, and that is with both the Bulls and the Sox. So why would I respond to that? It was informative, but it doesn't change what I stated about Rose and recruiting.

There was never a report of the Bulls going after Kobe...until Kobe hinted of it at his press conference. The FO got on a plane, went to LA and did a sales pitch and nobody knew. Neither did Paxson come out and state "hey, we went to talk to Kobe...wasn't really supposed to, but he agreed to so we did."
If you think the media should report or throw out a rumor concerning everything that happens...then you give credence to Mitch Lawrence's article right?

You called Mariotti an example...as if there is a trend. What other journalists were run out of town by JR?

 

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

There is a big difference between agents recruiting and players recruiting. The agents didn't put together that big 3 in Miami. JR has a great relationship with Arn Tellem that predates any relationship with Rose, and that is with both the Bulls and the Sox. So why would I respond to that? It was informative, but it doesn't change what I stated about Rose and recruiting.

Wait a minute here.

-In one instance, posters are pissed at Rose because his camp "reportedly" is dictating to the FO to bring in a star.
-In another instance, posters are pissed at Rose because his camp "reportedly" doesn't want a star to replace Deng.
-In another instance, posters are pissed at Rose because he won't recruit.
-In yet another instance, poster are pissed at Rose because his camp is "reportedly" doing the recruiting instead of him personally.

Please make up your mind about why you're pissed at Rose.

There was never a report of the Bulls going after Kobe...until Kobe hinted of it at his press conference. The FO got on a plane, went to LA and did a sales pitch and nobody knew. Neither did Paxson come out and state "hey, we went to talk to Kobe...wasn't really supposed to, but he agreed to so we did."

It was also reported back then that the "reported" deal fell apart because Paxson refused to give up Deng in a package for Kobe.

If you think the media should report or throw out a rumor concerning everything that happens...then you give credence to Mitch Lawrence's article right?

It sounds like you believe any rumor that paints Rose in a bad light, but you refuse to believe any rumor that makes the FO look bad.

You called Mariotti an example...as if there is a trend. What other journalists were run out of town by JR?

The local guys keep their ink dry as much as possible when it comes to criticizing JR & the FO. Nick Friedell goes at them a little, but he has ESPN backing him up.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

 

[Axl Rose]

we could sit here all day arguing about what he coulda, shoulda done

you like paxson or you dont....whatever

but is anybody REALLY against making some changes in the front office?

 

[houheffna]

Wait a minute here.

-In one instance, posters are pissed at Rose because his camp "reportedly" is dictating to the FO to bring in a star.
-In another instance, posters are pissed at Rose because his camp "reportedly" doesn't want a star to replace Deng.
-In another instance, posters are pissed at Rose because he won't recruit.
-In yet another instance, poster are pissed at Rose because his camp is "reportedly" doing the recruiting instead of him personally.

Please make up your mind about why you're pissed at Rose.



It was also reported back then that the "reported" deal fell apart because Paxson refused to give up Deng in a package for Kobe.



It sounds like you believe any rumor that paints Rose in a bad light, but you refuse to believe any rumor that makes the FO look bad.



The local guys keep their ink dry as much as possible when it comes to criticizing JR & the FO. Nick Friedell goes at them a little, but he has ESPN backing him up.

Are you talking about "posters" or me? Make up your mind......

Arn Tellem is their agent, he goes directly to Reinsdorf with issues concerning his clients....he doesn't use the media. It should be obvious who I am talking about. I think YOU know who I am talking about...

1. Derrick Rose STATED AS FACT THAT HE DOESN'T RECRUIT! How many times do you have to be told that? Big difference between recruiting NBA players and an agent trying to get two of his clients to play together. You have to be kiddng me with this...

I am assuming that you are reasonably intelligent, it seems that way from your posts. I am hoping you are not basketball Special person. So you should know the difference between Rose stating that he does not recruit (who the hell told you I was pissed over that) and Arn Tellem doing what agents do.


So tell me...is Mr. Tellem supposed to go out and recruit Lebron? Carmelo? Kobe? Kevin Love? No...why? It ain't legal! He doesn't represent them. The Bulls went so far as to have tampered with Joe Johnson in 2010. They had a deal done with him prior to free agency even starting. Atlanta offered him much more money in a max deal, that is supposedly the only reason that the deal didn't happen. Why did they have an inside track on Johnson? Arn Tellem.

The you state that it sounds like I believe every rumor that "paints" Rose. No, it sounds like you are bloviating and refuse to read. And you just showed up recently. You wasn't around when I criticized Reinsdorf for supposedly blocking a trade for Gasol were you? I stated that the FO had been ineffective in getting coveted free agents. But then again, I don't recall many players scrambling to come to Chicago, even when MJ was here. Now John Paxson is supposed to show up and turn water into.....James Harden.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Turn water into Hardin?
JOHN CHRIST? :rolling:
Blasphemy.

 

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

Are you talking about "posters" or me? Make up your mind......

I haven't read this forum since early Tuesday, so my bad for responding so late. That post was directed at anyone sharing those beliefs. The arguments against Rose get a little confusing at times in these threads.

Arn Tellem is their agent, he goes directly to Reinsdorf with issues concerning his clients....he doesn't use the media. It should be obvious who I am talking about. I think YOU know who I am talking about...

I am fully aware of who Tellum is & his role. I also know that he works hand in hand with BJ Armstrong & Reggie Rose, while representing his highest profile NBA client Derrick Rose.

1. Derrick Rose STATED AS FACT THAT HE DOESN'T RECRUIT! How many times do you have to be told that? Big difference between recruiting NBA players and an agent trying to get two of his clients to play together. You have to be kiddng me with this...

How many times do you want me to acknowledge the quote that you posted?.......You showed me Rose stating that he doesn't recruit & I gave you props for educating me on Rose's words.

The problem is that you want to have your cake & eat it too. There is no difference between Rose recruiting or his agent (camp) recruiting. You want to criticize Rose for not recruiting, while also attempting to convince me that his agent (camp) are recruiting behind his back. Tellum works for Derrick Rose. Derrick Rose does not work for Tellum.

I am assuming that you are reasonably intelligent, it seems that way from your posts. I am hoping you are not basketball Special person. So you should know the difference between Rose stating that he does not recruit (who the hell told you I was pissed over that) and Arn Tellem doing what agents do.

Thanks for the back-handed compliment. For the record, you've quickly become one of my favorites on this board, regardless of our disagreements.

Like I said above, there is no difference between Rose or his agent (camp) recruiting players.

So tell me...is Mr. Tellem supposed to go out and recruit Lebron? Carmelo? Kobe? Kevin Love? No...why? It ain't legal! He doesn't represent them.

It's also not "technically" legal for Tellum (Rose camp) to recruit LaMarcus Aldridge to the Bulls, while LMA is still under contract to the Blazers. Sure, agents listen to their clients & orchestrate trades, but they're not supposed to actively recruit.

The Bulls went so far as to have tampered with Joe Johnson in 2010. They had a deal done with him prior to free agency even starting. Atlanta offered him much more money in a max deal, that is supposedly the only reason that the deal didn't happen. Why did they have an inside track on Johnson? Arn Tellem.

Regarding the underlined, was that reported or do you have inside knowledge?......I'm not trying to paint you in a corner. I'm actually curious about that info because this is my first time hearing about it.

The you state that it sounds like I believe every rumor that "paints" Rose. No, it sounds like you are bloviating and refuse to read.

I just think that too many internet posters are quick to believe any rumor/blog/article that makes Rose look bad, but are quick to dismiss any rumor/blog/article that makes JR & the FO look bad. It's almost like the PR arm of the Bulls franchise has plants on these internet message boards that push a particular narrative....lol.

My apologies if you thought that I was putting you in that group because I'm not.

And you just showed up recently. You wasn't around when I criticized Reinsdorf for supposedly blocking a trade for Gasol were you? I stated that the FO had been ineffective in getting coveted free agents. But then again, I don't recall many players scrambling to come to Chicago, even when MJ was here.

You're right. I am new here & I wasn't aware of your past positions. Like I said above, I was speaking about these present issues & I wasn't trying to pigeon-hole your views.

Now John Paxson is supposed to show up and turn water into.....James Harden.

There is nothing in your posts that shows me I was wrong. You attempted to show me that a Harden trade was impossible, but I showed you that it was.

 

[RoseMVP1]

There's a lot of behind the scenes shit that goes on with teams we don't even know about :shrug:

 

[Scoot26]

Regarding the underlined, was that reported or do you have inside knowledge?......I'm not trying to paint you in a corner. I'm actually curious about that info because this is my first time hearing about it.

Well there is this article: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...20130429_1_joakim-noah-berto-center-the-bulls

I for one believed Joe Johnson would have signed here for sure if Atlanta had not offered the max contract. Suppose that also speaks to Johnson's character though since he took the money over a chance to win a championship.

 

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

Well there is this article: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...20130429_1_joakim-noah-berto-center-the-bulls

I for one believed Joe Johnson would have signed here for sure if Atlanta had not offered the max contract. Suppose that also speaks to Johnson's character though since he took the money over a chance to win a championship.

Thanks for the link.

Regarding the underlined, I'm on the same page as you & I spoke about it a few weeks ago in another thread regarding the summer of 2010.

 

[Scoot26]

Thanks for the link.

Regarding the underlined, I'm on the same page as you & I spoke about it a few weeks ago in another thread regarding the summer of 2010.

Yep. And I also think we beat the Heat with Joe Johnson in 2010 and go to the Finals. Whether or not we win there is a different story.... We obviously don't win anything in 2012 or 2013 still but are probably in better shape and slightly more competitive.

 

[houheffna]

I haven't read this forum since early Tuesday, so my bad for responding so late. That post was directed at anyone sharing those beliefs. The arguments against Rose get a little confusing at times in these threads.


I am fully aware of who Tellum is & his role. I also know that he works hand in hand with BJ Armstrong & Reggie Rose, while representing his highest profile NBA client Derrick Rose.


How many times do you want me to acknowledge the quote that you posted?.......You showed me Rose stating that he doesn't recruit & I gave you props for educating me on Rose's words.

The problem is that you want to have your cake & eat it too. There is no difference between Rose recruiting or his agent (camp) recruiting. You want to criticize Rose for not recruiting, while also attempting to convince me that his agent (camp) are recruiting behind his back. Tellum works for Derrick Rose. Derrick Rose does not work for Tellum.


Thanks for the back-handed compliment. For the record, you've quickly become one of my favorites on this board, regardless of our disagreements.

Like I said above, there is no difference between Rose or his agent (camp) recruiting players.


It's also not "technically" legal for Tellum (Rose camp) to recruit LaMarcus Aldridge to the Bulls, while LMA is still under contract to the Blazers. Sure, agents listen to their clients & orchestrate trades, but they're not supposed to actively recruit.


Regarding the underlined, was that reported or do you have inside knowledge?......I'm not trying to paint you in a corner. I'm actually curious about that info because this is my first time hearing about it.


I just think that too many internet posters are quick to believe any rumor/blog/article that makes Rose look bad, but are quick to dismiss any rumor/blog/article that makes JR & the FO look bad. It's almost like the PR arm of the Bulls franchise has plants on these internet message boards that push a particular narrative....lol.

My apologies if you thought that I was putting you in that group because I'm not.


You're right. I am new here & I wasn't aware of your past positions. Like I said above, I was speaking about these present issues & I wasn't trying to pigeon-hole your views.


There is nothing in your posts that shows me I was wrong. You attempted to show me that a Harden trade was impossible, but I showed you that it was.

Ok, we will disagree about whether the Bulls had a good deal that could have been made for Harden. I believe OKC saw themselves as contenders, even without Harden. That is why Martin was so important. He is still a top caliber shooting guard in the league. I don't think Deng does what he does. OKC already have an ace perimeter defender in Sefolosha. And Deng is limited in his ability to score comparable to Harden and Martin.

LOL...trust me, I have NO inside knowledge. The only inside knowledge I had was when I used to talk to a former pro ball player who knew Jordan and Rodman, and he told me Jordan recruited Rodman during the Space Jam shooting. That's it. I did post a link...back in 2010 about the Joe Johnson rumors, I am surprised that so many don't know about that. Atlanta was crazy to offer him a max deal, as even then, he has shown himself NOT to be a max player.

As far as Tellem, there is no proof of him recruiting. But if Aldridge wants a trade, guess who he is going to notify? How many times has it been made known that the owners told the agent to go find a trade? Then suddenly, it comes out that Aldridge wouldn't mind playing in Chicago....and Rose wouldn't mind having him....
Tellem and Reinsdorf have been good business partners for years, going back to JR blowing up market value to sign Albert Belle.

The compliment was not back handed. Hang around, you will see some outrageous stuff on this forum....you should have been around when the Bulls were actually relevant.

 

[houheffna]

Yep. And I also think we beat the Heat with Joe Johnson in 2010 and go to the Finals. Whether or not we win there is a different story.... We obviously don't win anything in 2012 or 2013 still but are probably in better shape and slightly more competitive.

I actually agree with you on this. Though Joe was also going to be used to bait Lebron, Joe and Boozer would have been a decent haul for that summer.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

I'm not a huge fan of Mariotti, but he's an example of what happens when the local media calls out JR.

I know alot of people take offense to Marriotti's radical views, but i was a fan of his when he was a sportswriter for Chicago.
He wrote how he felt without trying to sugarcoat or please people....He told the truth....He used to bash Bulls management but it was the truth...Chicago sports media and the newspapers need more people like him.
He wasnt a asskisser and yesman to everything Bulls management with constant excuses for there failures LIKE Sam Smith types who are leftover and still allowed to flood the chicago sports media today with there propoganda.
Jay was no holds bar, and extremely entertaining to read.
YUP,THE POWERS THAT BE LIKE TO SILENCE THE TRUTH.
THATS WHY MARRIOTI IS GONE......HE PISSED THEM OFF TOO MUCH FOR EXPOSING THERE WRETCHED HYDES.

I taught Jay Marrioti my philosphys myself.

 

[BIGGIEsmalls 23]

Ok, we will disagree about whether the Bulls had a good deal that could have been made for Harden. I believe OKC saw themselves as contenders, even without Harden. That is why Martin was so important. He is still a top caliber shooting guard in the league. I don't think Deng does what he does. OKC already have an ace perimeter defender in Sefolosha. And Deng is limited in his ability to score comparable to Harden and Martin.

For the record, Heff. I never suggested a Deng to OKC scenario. My scenario involved a third team to take Deng, while shipping OKC (via Chicago) another expiring wing player on par with Kevin Martin.

The compliment was not back handed. Hang around, you will see some outrageous stuff on this forum....you should have been around when the Bulls were actually relevant.