The Pre Opening Day NL Central Standings Prediction Thread

[Bear Pride]

So you feel Renteria was trash and should have been fired even before Maddon became available?

No, you said that. :smh: I liked Renteria, and am on record as saying that. But Maddon is a step up, which is why I said Maddon, the new coaching staff, and the fact the Cubs would have the better team for the whole year, and not just half a year, would be good for +5 wins.

Do you have anything to input into the convo other than putting words in others mouths, and trying to instigate arguments with Cubs fans?

 

[chibears55]

So you feel Renteria was trash and should have been fired even before Maddon became available?

Wouldn't say Renteria was trash...

My personal feeling is they (cubs) get a little better just by having Maddon being more experienced, and successful then Renteria and he would automatically gain more respect from players because of that. ..

 

[Boobaby1]

So you feel Renteria was trash and should have been fired even before Maddon became available?

I think you would have to consider it being an upgrade.

Kinda like, if the Sox could fire Ventura and get Showalter in there, do you think he would equate to more wins? Just askin'.

To me, an upgrade is an upgrade, and you take it whenever and wherever you can in baseball.

 

[Parade_Rain]

What you guys have to remember is that Brett05 does not believe a manager can account for wins. Only players impact wins. They are on the field. I think I stated his position accurately.

 

[Bear Pride]

What you guys have to remember is that Brett05 does not believe a manager can account for wins. Only players impact wins. They are on the field. I think I stated his position accurately.

LOL Wut? You've got to be kidding me. Are you Brett's personal cheerleader? Can you not think for yourself, or are you under a duplicate account? I am supposed to remember that Brett thinks managers don't matter? You stated this position correctly? You didn't state shit. I can't believe that anyone thinks that a manager doesn't make a difference. This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I've seen yet. I'm shocked that you look up to this statement. Unbelievable! :smh:

 

[Parade_Rain]

LOL Wut? You've got to be kidding me. Are you Brett's personal cheerleader? Can you not think for yourself, or are you under a duplicate account? I am supposed to remember that Brett thinks managers don't matter? You stated this position correctly? You didn't state shit. I can't believe that anyone thinks that a manager doesn't make a difference. This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I've seen yet. I'm shocked that you look up to this statement. Unbelievable! :smh:

"I haven't stated shit"? Where do you come up with such brilliant prose? We've had this discussion/argument recently about managers. That's how I know what his position is. It isn't my position, ace.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

LOL Wut? You've got to be kidding me. Are you Brett's personal cheerleader? Can you not think for yourself, or are you under a duplicate account? I am supposed to remember that Brett thinks managers don't matter? You stated this position correctly? You didn't state shit. I can't believe that anyone thinks that a manager doesn't make a difference. This has got to be one of the dumbest posts I've seen yet. I'm shocked that you look up to this statement. Unbelievable! :smh:

Well that's a fun post huh? Parade_Rain was merely pointing out Brett's position on which he was largely accurate. My position is very similar to Brett's in that I think where a manager has impact is in the business sense of the term "manager". In business a successful manager creates a competitive yet nurturing environment where individuals are give every opportunity to succeed, i.e.. you give them all the tools to succeed from an organizational standpoint, encourage them to do so and then leave their success or failures to their own gifts. That type of environment provides a platform for winning but adds no wins to the ledger, those are added by the player's own performance. A bad manager by contrast is one where the environment is not conducive to winning or development and by not putting players in a position to succeed can actually cost wins. It's a nuanced argument to be sure but it isn't semantics. A manager matters, but he doesn't win games.

 

[brett05]

No, you said that. :smh: I liked Renteria, and am on record as saying that. But Maddon is a step up, which is why I said Maddon, the new coaching staff, and the fact the Cubs would have the better team for the whole year, and not just half a year, would be good for +5 wins.

Do you have anything to input into the convo other than putting words in others mouths, and trying to instigate arguments with Cubs fans?

I did neither. If you can't stop making strawmen please do not post.

 

[brett05]

Wouldn't say Renteria was trash...

My personal feeling is they (cubs) get a little better just by having Maddon being more experienced, and successful then Renteria and he would automatically gain more respect from players because of that. ..

I'd say a five win difference is the difference between the best manager (Let's say that is indeed Maddon) and the worst, (Let's say that's Ventura). I have read that multiple times. SO if you say Maddon won't lose the five games that Rick did you are saying Rick is trash. IMO.

 

[brett05]

What you guys have to remember is that Brett05 does not believe a manager can account for wins. Only players impact wins. They are on the field. I think I stated his position accurately.

Parade believes the manager causes the players to hit the ball beyond their means among other things which causes wins by the manager. I believe that is his position. We disagree, but it's ok. Course when the season starts.....

 

[chibears55]

I'd say a five win difference is the difference between the best manager (Let's say that is indeed Maddon) and the worst, (Let's say that's Ventura). I have read that multiple times. SO if you say Maddon won't lose the five games that Rick did you are saying Rick is trash. IMO.

No.. id say he is/was an inexperience manager

 

[brett05]

No.. id say he is/was an inexperience manager

I would say that too.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Parade believes the manager causes the players to hit the ball beyond their means among other things which causes wins by the manager. I believe that is his position. We disagree, but it's ok. Course when the season starts.....

This isn't a PlayStation game. Players/Teams don't start out at 100% power and only decline based upon managerial moves/decisions. :tongue:

 

[brett05]

This isn't a PlayStation game. Players/Teams don't start out at 100% power and only decline based upon managerial moves/decisions. :tongue:

So Kris Bryant isn't going to launch 80 bombs with 198 rbi this year? Dang it.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

I'm on the shitter on my phone so it's tough for me to get links. But there are studies on managers and over the course of the season they can +/- 2-3 wins/losses.

If you can get 3 extra wins from your manager that could be a huge difference.

 

[Parade_Rain]

I'm on the shitter on my phone so it's tough for me to get links. But there are studies on managers and over the course of the season they can +/- 2-3 wins/losses.

If you can get 3 extra wins from your manager that could be a huge difference.

You're in a good place, Grim.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I'm on the shitter on my phone so it's tough for me to get links. But there are studies on managers and over the course of the season they can +/- 2-3 wins/losses.

If you can get 3 extra wins from your manager that could be a huge difference.

Well OK then. Listen Maddon was an incredible hire and as good of a leader to these kids that they could have found and there's no question that if you had to decide between Rick Renteria and Joe Maddon you take Maddon 10 times out of 10. the one thing to keep in mind though is those very intangibles that you hired Maddon for were Renteria's strengths as well in terms of a loose clubhouse, open door policies, supportive coaching, etc., the thing was Renteria hadn't really gotten good at the rest of it yet. I think Maddon will continue and improve on all those things but I think the win difference (based on putting players in position to win as I don't believe managers actually win games) might have been greater if you were going directly from Dale Sveum, who I think was a horrible nurturer.developer of talent, as opposed to Renteria.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Well OK then. Listen Maddon was an incredible hire and as good of a leader to these kids that they could have found and there's no question that if you had to decide between Rick Renteria and Joe Maddon you take Maddon 10 times out of 10. the one thing to keep in mind though is those very intangibles that you hired Maddon for were Renteria's strengths as well in terms of a loose clubhouse, open door policies, supportive coaching, etc., the thing was Renteria hadn't really gotten good at the rest of it yet. I think Maddon will continue and improve on all those things but I think the win difference (based on putting players in position to win as I don't believe managers actually win games) might have been greater if you were going directly from Dale Sveum, who I think was a horrible nurturer.developer of talent, as opposed to Renteria.

Oh I agree completely. I was just posting stuff that I've read on fangraphs etc...

Joe maddon doesn't go out there and hit or pitch, but he is responsible for developing the players that do. I'm incredibly excited that he's on board.

 

[Bear Pride]

I'd say a five win difference is the difference between the best manager (Let's say that is indeed Maddon) and the worst, (Let's say that's Ventura). I have read that multiple times. SO if you say Maddon won't lose the five games that Rick did you are saying Rick is trash. IMO.

There you go 'not saying Rick is trash' again. No one said that, I never said that, and I don't care how you perceive what I say. First, you keep saying what I said out of context. I said Maddon, the Cubs new coaching staff as a whole, and the Cubs competing for an "entire" year would be worth +5 games.

That means I didn't say Maddon was 5 games better than Rick. However, I disagree with you that a Manager doesn't make a difference. "The players on the field" make the difference? Guess what, the manager puts the right players on the field.

I'll give you one example... if Baez doesn't figure it out with Maddon, he won't play. Although, I don't blame Rick too much for this cuz they were trying to get him bats, but that falls into my "Cubs competing for the whole year" point.

The bottom line is that I do think a manager makes a difference to wins on a team, and if you disagree, it DOES NOT mean I'm saying Rick was trash. So please stop putting words in my mouth and trying to instigate an argument.

 

[brett05]

There you go 'not saying Rick is trash' again. I never said that, and I don't care how you perceive what I say. First, you keep saying what I said out of context. I said Maddon, the Cubs new coaching staff as a whole, and the Cubs competing for an "entire" year would be worth +5 games.

That means I didn't say Maddon was 5 games better than Rick. However, I disagree with you that a Manager doesn't make a difference. "The players on the field" make the difference? Guess what, the manager puts the right players on the field.

I'll give you one example... if Baez doesn't figure it out with Maddon, he won't play. Although, I don't blame Rick too much for this cuz they were trying to get him bats, but that falls into my "Cubs competing for the whole year" point.

The bottom line is that I do think a manager makes a difference to wins on a team, and if you disagree, it DOES NOT mean I'm saying Rick was trash. So please stop putting words in my mouth and trying to instigate an argument.

I am not doing that at all and you are full of double speak.

You can't say Maddon is worth five wins over Renteria and then say I am not saying he's five wins better. Almost universally they say a manager is at best five better than the worst. So follow the logic here, if you say Maddon is five better than that means Renteria is the worst while Maddon is the best. Now maybe you think no manager is trash. That's fine. I think most would disagree.