Tipping

[Les Grossman]

I don't like the idea of tipping, but I definitely tip, especially to my local bar tenders. And I totally agree that taking an order at a walk up counter doesn't warrant a tip. That's just fucking stupid.

On that note, when I was in Iceland, there was no tipping at all. You couldn't tip even if you wanted to, if was way better imo.

 

[KittiesKorner]

I got in an argument with a waitress in Paris trying to sucker us thinking we were dumb Americans who didn't understand the tipping differences. I kicked her in the goiter.

 

[bearmick]

On that note, when I was in Iceland, there was no tipping at all. You couldn't tip even if you wanted to, if was way better imo.

http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/showthread.php/50551-Tipping?p=1403259&viewfull=1#post1403259

 

[JimJohnson]

Its fuckin hilarious when a consumer cries "how is it my problem if the business I am giving my money to fucks its employees over".

I'm not sure why it's "fuckin hilarious." It's a reasonable argument.

 

[KittiesKorner]

Well i guess you show them by not tipping, and you win this reasonable argument.

What do you want? 'Thank you for not tipping me?'

 

[Les Grossman]

Whatever. Serving is one of the only jobs in minimum wage america where people can actually make a living wage. I'm not going to begrudge them that. Further, you get to give your money directly to the person that is serving you. Its a weird system, but with how fucked low skill wages are, I'm not going to ***** about the one job that actually pays.

I will never understand how in the age where social connectivity is a cliche, so many people can't seem to fathom economic connectivity.

Still though, there does seem something fundamentally wrong with paying a server more than an actual skilled laborer, right? I get what you're saying, we all want everybody to makes lots of money, but that just can't be the case obliviously. I don't see why a server 'deserves' to make more than someone who works in retail for instance. More often than not, those people help you out more than taking down your order.

Shouldn't that economic connectivity go to a more important job, like say, a teacher?

IDK, I just don't like the concept of having to pay for something (like tipping a waiter) just to enable you to pay for what you really want (i.e. food).

 

[JimJohnson]

Well i guess you show them by not tipping, and you win this reasonable argument.

What do you want? 'Thank you for not tipping me?'

I don't want anything except my meal.

 

[Les Grossman]

On that note, has anyone been to a gas station where you can't self serve?

 

[JimJohnson]

On that note, has anyone been to a gas station where you can't self serve?

Yes, a small one when I was driving through Texas. I tipped the dude $100 bucks cause he did his job.

 

[JimJohnson]

Still though, there does seem something fundamentally wrong with paying a server more than an actual skilled laborer, right? I get what you're saying, we all want everybody to makes lots of money, but that just can't be the case obliviously. I don't see why a server 'deserves' to make more than someone who works in retail for instance. More often than not, those people help you out more than taking down your order.

Shouldn't that economic connectivity go to a more important job, like say, a teacher?

IDK, I just don't like the concept of having to pay for something (like tipping a waiter) just to enable you to pay for what you really want (i.e. food).

I could care less what waiters/waitresses make. However, what I don't like is the fact that restaurants get away with paying them peanuts and rely on consumers to to give them their rent money. It's asinine.

 

[botfly10]

Still though, there does seem something fundamentally wrong with paying a server more than an actual skilled laborer, right? I get what you're saying, we all want everybody to makes lots of money, but that just can't be the case obliviously. I don't see why a server 'deserves' to make more than someone who works in retail for instance. More often than not, those people help you out more than taking down your order.

Shouldn't that economic connectivity go to a more important job, like say, a teacher?

IDK, I just don't like the concept of having to pay for something (like tipping a waiter) just to enable you to pay for what you really want (i.e. food).

I think the problem is that skilled laborers get paid too little, not that servers get paid too much.

The solution isnt to lower the wages of the people that do get paid. And it can be the case that we all make lots of money. Just not all the money.

Not saying servers deserve more. Just that through some bizarre set of customs there is an industry where people can actually make decent money. So more power to them, imo. I'm a fan of jobs paying a living wage and am happy to contribute to that. Not saying its right that other people make less.

Shit, I was a short order cook for a lot of years and back of the house makes shit compared to servers. But the solution isn't to lower them to the cooks' wages.

Lowering the wages of the working poor doesn't help anyone. Thats what I was getting at with the economic connectivity thing.

And I don't subscribe to a concept of fairness where you get pulled down to the lowest denominator.

Anyway, this is mostly thinly disguised socialist propaganda. You take a look at the net domestic product and there is no reason the labor force of this country can't make living wages. Oh, except for that 5% hoarding 98% of our countries wealth.

 

[botfly10]

I could care less what waiters/waitresses make. However, what I don't like is the fact that restaurants get away with paying them peanuts and rely on consumers to to give them their rent money. It's asinine.

What difference does it make whether the restaurant acts as a middle man or not? Where the **** do you think paychecks come from if not consumers?

And either way, I was responding to your bullshit about not giving a **** about what servers make.

 

[JimJohnson]

What difference does it make whether the restaurant acts as a middle man or not? Where the **** do you think paychecks come from if not consumers?

And either way, I was responding to your bullshit about not giving a **** about what servers make.

I don't care what they make. It's none of my concern nor it should be the concern of anyone.

Restaurants make enough money to up the wages of servers. The owners are simply being greedy and choosing to pocket that money instead of paying their employees a living wage. My original post stated that that isn't my concern or problem.

 

[botfly10]

Some people realize that in the modern era, the welfare of the people around you affects your own. ie, if you want your wages to increase, you should support living wages for others...

Its the great fallacy of libertarianism. That its somehow possible to live on planet earth without affecting and being affected by all the other people on earth.

They think they can just hunker down and do their own thing like the world isn't going to come knock their door down.

 

[MotorCityCub]

I was a server and bartender. You absolutely MUST tip those people. Unless, you truly have the shittiest service of your life, you need to tip. That's how they make their money.

As far as baristas, I think it depends on their attitude and what you're ordering. A coffee with cream from Dunkin? Probably doesn't warrant a tip. Plus their employees are paid hourly.

To play Devil's advocate, why is a bartender who merely grabs a beer from a refrigerator and opens it more worthy of a tip than somebody who pours coffee from a pot and adds cream? Pretty much the same service level. Tips should be based on service level and not the job title.

I'm a minimum 20% with increases for great service. I also have a $5 minimum. Why should someone who works at a low cost diner receive a lower tip because of the food price for providing the same service?

We moved into a new house recently. Everybody who came to the house and did work received a tip if the service was good. Tree trimmers, plumbers, movers, pest control, furnace inspector, etc. Heck, the plumber worked on a clogged pipe for an hour, he got $150. His extra effort saved us from having more extensive work done.

 

[Les Grossman]

I think the problem is that skilled laborers get paid too little, not that servers get paid too much.

The solution isnt to lower the wages of the people that do get paid. And it can be the case that we all make lots of money. Just not all the money.

Not saying servers deserve more. Just that through some bizarre set of customs there is an industry where people can actually make decent money. So more power to them, imo. I'm a fan of jobs paying a living wage and am happy to contribute to that. Not saying its right that other people make less.

Shit, I was a short order cook for a lot of years and back of the house makes shit compared to servers. But the solution isn't to lower them to the cooks' wages.

Lowering the wages of the working poor doesn't help anyone. Thats what I was getting at with the economic connectivity thing.

And I don't subscribe to a concept of fairness where you get pulled down to the lowest denominator.

Anyway, this is mostly thinly disguised socialist propaganda. You take a look at the net domestic product and there is no reason the labor force of this country can't make living wages. Oh, except for that 5% hoarding 98% of our countries wealth.

That's pretty much socialism... (which your unveiled yourself haha)

And it's not about taking money away from someone, it's about them never really deserving it. Shouldn't you really be tipping the cook, anyway? I mean, when you get your hair cut, do you tip the receptionist who writes your name down, or the actual person who cuts your hair?

Again, I just don't think a job as a server really warrants a higher wage (take home). The natural reaction to not paying servers a higher wage would be that those people actually get better jobs, like skilled labor. It's not about making the poor poor, because your solution to that suggests raising welfare.

Anyway, good discussion. I'm probably coming off as a capitalist pig, but I'm just really focusing of the serving industry, not the total minimum wage job market.

 

[Unannounced Fart]

And I totally agree that taking an order at a walk up counter doesn't warrant a tip. That's just fucking stupid.

I know I'm in the minority, but I tip take out orders because there's still some service involved. Someone takes your order over the phone, it needs to get transferred to containers, packaged up, etc. And in a lot of restaurants, the tip gets split among the servers, cooks, and other people involved in preparing your food. Of course, there isn't as much service as dining in, so I don't tip as much, but I still think a minimal amount is deserving.

 

[bearmick]

That's pretty much socialism... (which your unveiled yourself haha)

And it's not about taking money away from someone, it's about them never really deserving it. Shouldn't you really be tipping the cook, anyway? I mean, when you get your hair cut, do you tip the receptionist who writes your name down, or the actual person who cuts your hair?

Again, I just don't think a job as a server really warrants a higher wage (take home). The natural reaction to not paying servers a higher wage would be that those people actually get better jobs, like skilled labor. It's not about making the poor poor, because your solution to that suggests raising welfare.

Anyway, good discussion. I'm probably coming off as a capitalist pig, but I'm just really focusing of the serving industry, not the total minimum wage job market.

Here's the contradiction in that though - it's a fact that the gap between workers in corporations and executive level staff has been widening over the last 30 years, and earnings at the top have sky-rocketed while the relative pay of general workers has been stagnant, despite an enormous increase in productivity.

Going on the same principle as you mentioned re: paying chefs instead of servers (that the people who actually do the work should be rewarded with the fruits of the labor), Botfly is correct; the pay of general labor is too low relative to the profits they deliver and relative to the economy they live in.

I'm on the same side as you about tipping by the way, I just wanted to point out that I agree with Botfly's remarks in that regard.


(As a side point, contrary to the right wing rhetoric we get a lot, the point of social democracy is not to ensure equal outcome to the lazy as to the hard working. It's to ensure that the social safety net is guaranteed to everyone who needs it, rather than coming in the form of charitable donation on the whim of the wealthy and religious groups to those they deem deserving.)

 

[Urblock]

To play Devil's advocate, why is a bartender who merely grabs a beer from a refrigerator and opens it more worthy of a tip than somebody who pours coffee from a pot and adds cream? Pretty much the same service level. Tips should be based on service level and not the job title.

I'm a minimum 20% with increases for great service. I also have a $5 minimum. Why should someone who works at a low cost diner receive a lower tip because of the food price for providing the same service?

We moved into a new house recently. Everybody who came to the house and did work received a tip if the service was good. Tree trimmers, plumbers, movers, pest control, furnace inspector, etc. Heck, the plumber worked on a clogged pipe for an hour, he got $150. His extra effort saved us from having more extensive work done.

That's great. I never except a tip because as the owner I made my money. It is nice that you appreciate a job well done.

 

[Les Grossman]

I know I'm in the minority, but I tip take out orders because there's still some service involved. Someone takes your order over the phone, it needs to get transferred to containers, packaged up, etc. And in a lot of restaurants, the tip gets split among the servers, cooks, and other people involved in preparing your food. Of course, there isn't as much service as dining in, so I don't tip as much, but I still think a minimal amount is deserving.

Yeah, to each their own. You are very generous.

But you have to wonder how the evolution of tipping came about. I'm sure it started from someone saying, "Hey, this meal was the best I've ever had!", or "This was much better than usual!", warranting cost of a little something more than usual (i.e. more money).

But now, in today's society, the tip has become part of the baseline price, defeating the whole idea behind it, it seems.