Lex L.
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Brett.
Brett.
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*Watches brett google Frank Baker's OPS+*
*Watches brett run away from the thread*
*Watches brett run away from the thread*
brett05
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Yeah a ton of people based on the HOF voting over the years.
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Well... your one of few (very very low) who thinks that Santo did not deseve to be in the HOF. That's a ridiculous statement. He rightfully deserve it a long ago, when he was still here.
brett05
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One of the very many based on vote totals. What's your evidence?
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Anno Catuli
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Santo Elected to the Hall of Fame, But Election Process Needs Massive Overhaul
When the news came out about Ron Santo finally being inducted into the Hall of fame, I had fun with the them and wrote about what the induction speech would be if I were the one speaking. Obviously, that was all tongue in cheek because being elected is an honor that should not be pushed away. However, it was a look at what many Cub fans feel about the situation and what they think that the family should do. That will not happen, but that does lead to other discussions in regards to the Hall of Fame.
Yesterday the “Golden Era” of Major League Baseball finally righted what many perceived as a wrong that has been done to Santo. In the eyes of many, Santo should have been elected into the Hall of Fame several years ago and his statistics prove that when compared to those of his era. Even the great Bill James, who is well noted as one of the statistical genius, has gone on record saying that statistically speaking Santo was the sixth greatest third baseman to ever play the game of baseball. Obviously with the emergence of some younger players that will likely change, but in his primary time of eligibility if you are telling me that there was not room in the Hall of Fame for six third basemen then there is an issue here. In fact, there is an enormous issue with the Hall of Fame and how they elect members to join their hallowed halls. Personally, I believe that there should be massive changes to the entire process of Hall of Fame voting.
The first thing that must be done is to do away with the Veteran’s Committee. Yes, they are the very reason Santo finally got in, but the fact that they even exist is a joke. God bless Santo and the “Golden Era” committee, but if you are not voted in in your 20 primary years of eligibility then you should not be in the Hall of Fame. By the way, if you need proof that Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig really does love the Cubs and Santo, look no further than the Veteran’s Committee. Selig seemingly changed the rules several times in order to finally get Santo into the Hall of Fame.
He originally created the committee in order to right the wrongs of the writers. To correct the error that was initially done which excluded players. But why? These men each had 15 chances to get in, and fell short each time. Perhaps the reasoning was they were not media friendly and therefore the beat writers decided to hold a grudge and exclude them from the honor they richly deserve. Or maybe, just maybe the guys who watched them year after year did not feel they were worth of the Hall of Fame. Whatever the reasoning for certain players being excluded, Selig felt they deserved extra chances to get into the Hall of Fame, this time they would be voted on by the men who actually played the game, feeling they would have a different take on the game. They would see Hall of Fame talent where the writers failed to, because they know how hard the game of baseball is to play. But that too fell short in electing the men who the writers deemed unworthy of the Hall of Fame. Perhaps they were right all along.
The real reasons why the Veteran’s Committee decided not to elect any of the players up for consideration may never be known, but we can always speculate. Obviously, one reason would be that the majority of the players already in the Hall of Fame want to keep the club as exclusive as possible. Being in the Hall of Fame is supposed to be a rare opportunity, and allowing more people in diminishes the value of being known as one of the greats in the game.
Other reasons would likely fall on jealousy or pure hatred of a player. There are reports that Santo was a complete jerk to some teammates and other players around the league. Some baseball fans have noted that Santo would routinely call out other players in the press, even though most of his former teammates have always spoken fondly of him, so how true that is I can not tell.
But one thing that may have worked against him with his peers, was his celebratory heel click which he was asked to do after every win by his manager. Other players around the league were not too fond of this routine, seeing that celebration as a slap in the face and rubbing things in. But the old mantra has always been that if you do not like something stop them. With Santo, all you had to do was defeat the Cubs and you would have stopped the heel click, something the 1969 Mets figured out even if that was not their main intention.
Another reason would be wanting to stick to the original basis for election to the Hall of fame. Why would the players want to let you in when the writers said no? Why should they be given extra chances when they already failed 20 times? The writers are supposed to be the experts on the matter, and why would they disagree with the writers who said these men were Hall of Fame worthy? In their minds that could lessen what the writers opinion means and in turn lessen their own Hall of Fame careers.
But yes, regardless of who was up for election by the Veteran’s Committee there was little chance they would ever be voted in because of some form of reason I mentioned above. Not all players felt that way, but there was obviously something holding them back from voting other players in the way things stood.
Several changes to the Veteran’s Committee later, we come to the “Golden Era” ballot. Another change to try and elect a player who may have been unfairly excluded. This time the voters finally got things right, but was he elected for the right reasons? Cubs Hall of Fame player (and former teammate of Santo) Billy Williams said the Committee looked at everything from Santo’s life. They looked at his statistics, his work off the field with his charity work as well as his work in the broadcasting booth. But should that all be looked at when voting for the Hall of Fame? No, that should not be looked at. This is the National Baseball Hall of Fame, where the greatest players who ever played the game could be immortalized for future generations to look back and remember. This is not the Hall of Great People, this is the Hall of Fame. Your work off the field, or who you were as a person should have no influence at all in whether or not you are a Hall of Fame player. If you start taking all of that into consideration then you have a great number of players who should be kicked out. Just see Ty Cobb if you need an example of bad guys who are in the Hall of Fame. Don’t get me wrong, Santo DOES belong in the Hall of Fame, but I feel that he was elected for all the wrong reasons. I am happy he was voted in, but hearing that he got voted in because of his stats as well as his work off the field feels a little hollow. Why did they decide to look at his work off the field, and his work in the booth now instead of every other time the Veteran’s Committee voted on him? His election almost feels like a pity vote, especially since he was voted in after his death.
So yes, the first step in fixing the Hall of Fame voting process is to abolish the Veteran’s Committee, and I would not be surprised if they were now dismantled, now that Santo was voted in. As I mentioned earlier, the fact they exist proves that Selig really does care about the Cubs, their fans and Santo.
After getting rid of the Veteran’s Committee, I would have a vote on all currently eligible players, including those who would have been up for election from the defunct Veteran’s Committee in a one shot deal. Give the writers and Hall of Fame members unlimited votes, allowing them to select as many men as they want for entrance. If you garner enough support congratulations you are in the Hall of Fame. If not, too bad so sad, you are not worthy so stop waiting for the call to the hall. Case closed, end of story.
The next thing I would do, is to slightly tweak who votes on the eligible players. Right now, only the baseball writers vote on the candidates. They vote because they are the ones who watched these players play, and have a good idea on who they were and how great they were as players. If the writers vote because they saw them play, then add in the broadcasters who see and call every game. Use the television and radio broadcasters for every team and even throw in the National broadcasters who work for Fox and ESPN. They have just as much knowledge about the various players up for consideration as the writers do. Also, since you are doing away with the Veteran’s Committee you can add all living Hall of Fame members to the vote as well. Sure, you add a lot more voters but you can keep the basic structure alive if you want. Keep election sitting at receiving 75% of the votes, that is a perfect percentage because that is a solid majority. With more voters, becoming elected is a lot harder because you need more votes. No complaint here, being elected should be hard as this is quite an honor. Nothing should be easy.
Finally, I would do away with the 20 years of eligibility. The longest they should be eligible is five years at most, but in all honesty I think everyone should be up once and only once. Seriously, you either are a Hall of Fame player or you aren’t. Your statistics do not magically get better a year or two later. The mindset of most writers are along the lines of “He is Hall of Fame worthy, just not on the first ballot”. Newsflash guys, there are no “Super Hall of Fame Players” out there. What I would do, is once again give the voters unlimited votes every year. Elect the players you think should be in the Hall of Fame the first year or risk allowing someone you think is worthy to be left out in the cold. But again, you either are a Hall of Fame player or you are not.
I know that if these rules were in place even a week ago that Santo would not be in the Hall of Fame today, and that is a tremendous shame. He deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame when he was eligible the first 20 years when the writers had their chance to give him the honor he so richly deserved. However, he was not elected when he had his chance and as much as I think he deserved to be in the Hall of Fame, I do not think he should be there. I know that will draw some heavy criticism from many Cub fans (including close friends and family) but this is an honest opinion.
No one benefited more than Santo from the rule changes that I still believe were made exclusively for him. But the need for a change to the process is heavily needed. If a well loved player is to be excluded because of these rule changes then so what. Being elected to the Hall of Fame is supposed to be a rare honor and privilege. How rare can the honor be if you have 20 plus chances to reach the ultimate goal?
When the news came out about Ron Santo finally being inducted into the Hall of fame, I had fun with the them and wrote about what the induction speech would be if I were the one speaking. Obviously, that was all tongue in cheek because being elected is an honor that should not be pushed away. However, it was a look at what many Cub fans feel about the situation and what they think that the family should do. That will not happen, but that does lead to other discussions in regards to the Hall of Fame.
Yesterday the “Golden Era” of Major League Baseball finally righted what many perceived as a wrong that has been done to Santo. In the eyes of many, Santo should have been elected into the Hall of Fame several years ago and his statistics prove that when compared to those of his era. Even the great Bill James, who is well noted as one of the statistical genius, has gone on record saying that statistically speaking Santo was the sixth greatest third baseman to ever play the game of baseball. Obviously with the emergence of some younger players that will likely change, but in his primary time of eligibility if you are telling me that there was not room in the Hall of Fame for six third basemen then there is an issue here. In fact, there is an enormous issue with the Hall of Fame and how they elect members to join their hallowed halls. Personally, I believe that there should be massive changes to the entire process of Hall of Fame voting.
The first thing that must be done is to do away with the Veteran’s Committee. Yes, they are the very reason Santo finally got in, but the fact that they even exist is a joke. God bless Santo and the “Golden Era” committee, but if you are not voted in in your 20 primary years of eligibility then you should not be in the Hall of Fame. By the way, if you need proof that Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig really does love the Cubs and Santo, look no further than the Veteran’s Committee. Selig seemingly changed the rules several times in order to finally get Santo into the Hall of Fame.
He originally created the committee in order to right the wrongs of the writers. To correct the error that was initially done which excluded players. But why? These men each had 15 chances to get in, and fell short each time. Perhaps the reasoning was they were not media friendly and therefore the beat writers decided to hold a grudge and exclude them from the honor they richly deserve. Or maybe, just maybe the guys who watched them year after year did not feel they were worth of the Hall of Fame. Whatever the reasoning for certain players being excluded, Selig felt they deserved extra chances to get into the Hall of Fame, this time they would be voted on by the men who actually played the game, feeling they would have a different take on the game. They would see Hall of Fame talent where the writers failed to, because they know how hard the game of baseball is to play. But that too fell short in electing the men who the writers deemed unworthy of the Hall of Fame. Perhaps they were right all along.
The real reasons why the Veteran’s Committee decided not to elect any of the players up for consideration may never be known, but we can always speculate. Obviously, one reason would be that the majority of the players already in the Hall of Fame want to keep the club as exclusive as possible. Being in the Hall of Fame is supposed to be a rare opportunity, and allowing more people in diminishes the value of being known as one of the greats in the game.
Other reasons would likely fall on jealousy or pure hatred of a player. There are reports that Santo was a complete jerk to some teammates and other players around the league. Some baseball fans have noted that Santo would routinely call out other players in the press, even though most of his former teammates have always spoken fondly of him, so how true that is I can not tell.
But one thing that may have worked against him with his peers, was his celebratory heel click which he was asked to do after every win by his manager. Other players around the league were not too fond of this routine, seeing that celebration as a slap in the face and rubbing things in. But the old mantra has always been that if you do not like something stop them. With Santo, all you had to do was defeat the Cubs and you would have stopped the heel click, something the 1969 Mets figured out even if that was not their main intention.
Another reason would be wanting to stick to the original basis for election to the Hall of fame. Why would the players want to let you in when the writers said no? Why should they be given extra chances when they already failed 20 times? The writers are supposed to be the experts on the matter, and why would they disagree with the writers who said these men were Hall of Fame worthy? In their minds that could lessen what the writers opinion means and in turn lessen their own Hall of Fame careers.
But yes, regardless of who was up for election by the Veteran’s Committee there was little chance they would ever be voted in because of some form of reason I mentioned above. Not all players felt that way, but there was obviously something holding them back from voting other players in the way things stood.
Several changes to the Veteran’s Committee later, we come to the “Golden Era” ballot. Another change to try and elect a player who may have been unfairly excluded. This time the voters finally got things right, but was he elected for the right reasons? Cubs Hall of Fame player (and former teammate of Santo) Billy Williams said the Committee looked at everything from Santo’s life. They looked at his statistics, his work off the field with his charity work as well as his work in the broadcasting booth. But should that all be looked at when voting for the Hall of Fame? No, that should not be looked at. This is the National Baseball Hall of Fame, where the greatest players who ever played the game could be immortalized for future generations to look back and remember. This is not the Hall of Great People, this is the Hall of Fame. Your work off the field, or who you were as a person should have no influence at all in whether or not you are a Hall of Fame player. If you start taking all of that into consideration then you have a great number of players who should be kicked out. Just see Ty Cobb if you need an example of bad guys who are in the Hall of Fame. Don’t get me wrong, Santo DOES belong in the Hall of Fame, but I feel that he was elected for all the wrong reasons. I am happy he was voted in, but hearing that he got voted in because of his stats as well as his work off the field feels a little hollow. Why did they decide to look at his work off the field, and his work in the booth now instead of every other time the Veteran’s Committee voted on him? His election almost feels like a pity vote, especially since he was voted in after his death.
So yes, the first step in fixing the Hall of Fame voting process is to abolish the Veteran’s Committee, and I would not be surprised if they were now dismantled, now that Santo was voted in. As I mentioned earlier, the fact they exist proves that Selig really does care about the Cubs, their fans and Santo.
After getting rid of the Veteran’s Committee, I would have a vote on all currently eligible players, including those who would have been up for election from the defunct Veteran’s Committee in a one shot deal. Give the writers and Hall of Fame members unlimited votes, allowing them to select as many men as they want for entrance. If you garner enough support congratulations you are in the Hall of Fame. If not, too bad so sad, you are not worthy so stop waiting for the call to the hall. Case closed, end of story.
The next thing I would do, is to slightly tweak who votes on the eligible players. Right now, only the baseball writers vote on the candidates. They vote because they are the ones who watched these players play, and have a good idea on who they were and how great they were as players. If the writers vote because they saw them play, then add in the broadcasters who see and call every game. Use the television and radio broadcasters for every team and even throw in the National broadcasters who work for Fox and ESPN. They have just as much knowledge about the various players up for consideration as the writers do. Also, since you are doing away with the Veteran’s Committee you can add all living Hall of Fame members to the vote as well. Sure, you add a lot more voters but you can keep the basic structure alive if you want. Keep election sitting at receiving 75% of the votes, that is a perfect percentage because that is a solid majority. With more voters, becoming elected is a lot harder because you need more votes. No complaint here, being elected should be hard as this is quite an honor. Nothing should be easy.
Finally, I would do away with the 20 years of eligibility. The longest they should be eligible is five years at most, but in all honesty I think everyone should be up once and only once. Seriously, you either are a Hall of Fame player or you aren’t. Your statistics do not magically get better a year or two later. The mindset of most writers are along the lines of “He is Hall of Fame worthy, just not on the first ballot”. Newsflash guys, there are no “Super Hall of Fame Players” out there. What I would do, is once again give the voters unlimited votes every year. Elect the players you think should be in the Hall of Fame the first year or risk allowing someone you think is worthy to be left out in the cold. But again, you either are a Hall of Fame player or you are not.
I know that if these rules were in place even a week ago that Santo would not be in the Hall of Fame today, and that is a tremendous shame. He deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame when he was eligible the first 20 years when the writers had their chance to give him the honor he so richly deserved. However, he was not elected when he had his chance and as much as I think he deserved to be in the Hall of Fame, I do not think he should be there. I know that will draw some heavy criticism from many Cub fans (including close friends and family) but this is an honest opinion.
No one benefited more than Santo from the rule changes that I still believe were made exclusively for him. But the need for a change to the process is heavily needed. If a well loved player is to be excluded because of these rule changes then so what. Being elected to the Hall of Fame is supposed to be a rare honor and privilege. How rare can the honor be if you have 20 plus chances to reach the ultimate goal?
brett05
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keep tossing stuff in the wall it probably won't stick but who knows you may get one
brett05
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Keep trying you'll read soon
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The voting is idiotic to begin with.
Fun fact, Joe Dimaggio wasn't a first ballot HOF'er.
Sandy Koufox only got 80 some % percent of the vote?
How are people like this not unanimous first ballot HOF'ers?
The entire fucking system is stupid.
Fun fact, Joe Dimaggio wasn't a first ballot HOF'er.
Sandy Koufox only got 80 some % percent of the vote?
How are people like this not unanimous first ballot HOF'ers?
The entire fucking system is stupid.
Last edited:
brett05
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Yeah keep it up.
Way to sneak away when you clearly had no idea what OPS+ even is.
You've been drubbed in this thread from the start.
Asking people to post "evidence" for Santo belonging when your evidence pretty much consists of Santo not batting as well on the road and you not knowing what OPS+ is.
Fantastic.
All the while saying you "could make a case" for Harold Baines.
lulz.
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Once again FT gutters it
You guttered this thread at the outset.
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Jim Rice...in on a higher percentage of the vote than Cy Young and Al Simmons.
Lulz.
Lulz.
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Babe Ruth. Not named on every ballot.
Named on less ballots than Tony Gwynn.
Named on less ballots than Tony Gwynn.
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It took Al Simmons 7 ballots to get into the HOF.
Anno Catuli
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Hence the reasoning in my long winded blog.
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Staff online NOW
-
bamainatlantaYou wake him up, you keep him up
