valedictorian fights judges ban on leading crowd in prayer

[TSD]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110602/us_nm/us_prayer_graduation_texas



"After all that I've been taught about the freedoms of speech, expression and religion in our country, I am disappointed that my liberties are being infringed upon by this court's ruling to censor my speech," Hildenbrand said at a press conference at the Alamo.





U.S. District Judge Fred Biery ruled on Tuesday that the Medina Valley School District may not proceed with plans to include an invocation or benediction at the ceremony, saying that doing so would make it sound like the school is "sponsoring a religion."

He said student speakers may reference God in their remarks.



I think the judge has it right on. If it is a public school, leading the crowd in a christian (or jewish or muslim or hindu or whatever) prayer would appear to be an endorsement of a religion by a public institution.



why cant she just thank God and be done with it? You dont have to recite the goddamn hail mary.





"This is part of an ongoing attempt to purge God from the public setting, while at the same time demanding from the court increased yielding to all things agnostic and atheistic," Abbott said.



such as? as long as government and public institutions dont go around telling people there is no God, there is no problem, I wouldnt agree with that either.



He said Congress begins each session with a prayer to God, and Biery's ruling would allow a student to "bend over in honor of Mecca," but not lead a prayer to the Christian God.



thats one student looking like an idiot not saying a goddamn word, if he got up to the microphone chanting allah akbar thats a different story.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Who cares? more people whining for attention... and you're giving it to them.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

Freedom of speech, right? In any case it is not like those that do not agree have to pray. And is it in no way that the school is promoting religion...otherwise the school would be promoting everything in her speech. Right? Not that I am religious but this does seem like a double standard, IMO. Especially when many of those speeches promote a so positive yet unrealistic world and future....just like something else.

 

[LordKOTL]

...and if a valedictorian wanted to lead the crowd in a Wicca ritual that would involve a banishing pentagram?



...just saying...religion is like a penis. It's okay to have one and be proud of it, but no one wants to see you whip it out in public and FFS don't slam it down your kids' throats.

 

[supraman]

http://news.yahoo.co...raduation_texas



"After all that I've been taught about the freedoms of speech, expression and religion in our country, I am disappointed that my liberties are being infringed upon by this court's ruling to censor my speech," Hildenbrand said at a press conference at the Alamo.





U.S. District Judge Fred Biery ruled on Tuesday that the Medina Valley School District may not proceed with plans to include an invocation or benediction at the ceremony, saying that doing so would make it sound like the school is "sponsoring a religion."

He said student speakers may reference God in their remarks.



I think the judge has it right on. If it is a public school, leading the crowd in a christian (or jewish or muslim or hindu or whatever) prayer would appear to be an endorsement of a religion by a public institution.



why cant she just thank God and be done with it? You dont have to recite the goddamn hail mary.





"This is part of an ongoing attempt to purge God from the public setting, while at the same time demanding from the court increased yielding to all things agnostic and atheistic," Abbott said.



such as? as long as government and public institutions dont go around telling people there is no God, there is no problem, I wouldnt agree with that either.



He said Congress begins each session with a prayer to God, and Biery's ruling would allow a student to "bend over in honor of Mecca," but not lead a prayer to the Christian God.



thats one student looking like an idiot not saying a goddamn word, if he got up to the microphone chanting allah akbar thats a different story.

I say let the student do it. Freedom of Speech and he/she is not an employee of the school

 

[LordKOTL]

I say let the student do it. Freedom of Speech and he/she is not an employee of the school

Again, See my post. And also then no one should feel bad or offended for those of us who do not subscribe to the Christian religion choose to not participate and do not bow their head, do not say "amen", and possibly even leave the auditorium to not be a part of it.



Because none of what I descibed is any more rude, IMHO, than trying to make a lot of other people publically practice riutals and rites of your religion--especially if they aren't a part of it.

 

[supraman]

Again, See my post. And also then no one should feel bad or offended for those of us who do not subscribe to the Christian religion choose to not participate and do not bow their head, do not say "amen", and possibly even leave the auditorium to not be a part of it.



Because none of what I descibed is any more rude, IMHO, than trying to make a lot of other people publically practice riutals and rites of your religion--especially if they aren't a part of it.

And that's fine you don't have to pray but it is free speech. I mean we censor religious speech yet the KKK and the Westboro idiots (I know they are religious but you get my point) get to spew their bullshit.



You take the good with the bad or you censor. And censorship is not the right direction

 

[MassHavoc]

And that's fine you don't have to pray but it is free speech. I mean we censor religious speech yet the KKK and the Westboro idiots (I know they are religious but you get my point) get to spew their bullshit.



You take the good with the bad or you censor. And censorship is not the right direction

Except it has nothing to do with the purpose of the commencement speech.

 

[supraman]

Except it has nothing to do with the purpose of the commencement speech.

"I would like to take a moment for a silent prayer to thank god for helping me through these last 4 years" and there you go it is about the commencement speech.

 

[MassHavoc]

"I would like to take a moment for a silent prayer to thank god for helping me through these last 4 years" and there you go it is about the commencement speech.

Again, not the purpose of the speech.

 

[LordKOTL]

Honestly, Mass, if supra's example was all the "prayer" was, I wouldn't have any issue with it. The key for me was that she wants to "lead them all in prayer."



That's the bone I have to pick with the whole thing. Can all of those who do not want to be lead in prayer get up and leave the auditorium--including the sudents graduating? Somehow I doubt it would be considered "acceptable". I know for a fact that if my graduating class's valedictorians would have done that, I would have got up and left, which would have ruined the commencement.



And again, supra, based on your agument that it is freedom of speech, if a young Wiccan gets valedictorian and wants to take the entire audience through a ritual banishment, one that involves the lesser pentagram, do you think she has the right to do so? And further, does anyone there who doesn't want to be a part of it have the right to get up and leave?

 

[MassHavoc]

Honestly, Mass, if supra's example was all the "prayer" was, I wouldn't have any issue with it. The key for me was that she wants to "lead them all in prayer."



That's the bone I have to pick with the whole thing. Can all of those who do not want to be lead in prayer get up and leave the auditorium--including the sudents graduating? Somehow I doubt it would be considered "acceptable". I know for a fact that if my graduating class's valedictorians would have done that, I would have got up and left, which would have ruined the commencement.



And again, supra, based on your agument that it is freedom of speech, if a young Wiccan gets valedictorian and wants to take the entire audience through a ritual banishment, one that involves the lesser pentagram, do you think she has the right to do so? And further, does anyone there who doesn't want to be a part of it have the right to get up and leave?

I didn't say I'd have a problem with it, I just restated that it was not the purpose of the speech, and thus his argument isn't reasoning.

 

[LordKOTL]

Fair enough. My point was that if the speech was as Supra insited, it wouldn't be a huge issue. If it is as the article said, it's her forcing her beliefs on the other audience members (as long as they don't have a viable exit strategy).



Plus, if the shoe was on the other foot, she and the other christians would have their torches and pitchforks if another religion tried to make them practice their beliefs without a viable exit strategy.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

What if the student were to talk about how 'unfair' the gov't unions have been treated in other states and spoke about how it should not happen in Texas; would that be considered ok?





Why is this part of the speech considered a rude, poor use, or inappropriate use of the 1st Amendment so it should be legally stopped, yet someone publishing a book about how to be a child predator is ok?





Should any school be controlling\censoring what is in these speeches? Isn't part of education teaching those to be grown ups and branch out on their own? What was it she was actually going to say? With out that it seems like jumping to conclusions based on one's beliefs.





According to the article this is a long standing tradition for this school and an area that is pretty Catholic. Why is it an issue now? Why not allow the speaker to prefix their statement with something along the lines of "I would like to make a little prayer so please pray in your own religious or non-religious manner?"





Does the NFL support 'religion' by allowing the prayer circles before and after games on the football field?







Just some things to think about as it seems like the black&white or gray shifts unequally with only certain tolerances.





And really, why not allow her to do it separately to those that want to be a part of that section of the speech.

 

[supraman]

Honestly, Mass, if supra's example was all the "prayer" was, I wouldn't have any issue with it. The key for me was that she wants to "lead them all in prayer."



That's the bone I have to pick with the whole thing. Can all of those who do not want to be lead in prayer get up and leave the auditorium--including the sudents graduating? Somehow I doubt it would be considered "acceptable". I know for a fact that if my graduating class's valedictorians would have done that, I would have got up and left, which would have ruined the commencement.



And again, supra, based on your agument that it is freedom of speech, if a young Wiccan gets valedictorian and wants to take the entire audience through a ritual banishment, one that involves the lesser pentagram, do you think she has the right to do so? And further, does anyone there who doesn't want to be a part of it have the right to get up and leave?

I dont think the prayer involves props. What if he called for a moment of silence? I mean you can pray or do whatever? To me same difference. What if they lost a rather popular student and wanted to remember him or her. It's mountains out of molehills.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

What if the student were to talk about how 'unfair' the gov't unions have been treated in other states and spoke about how it should not happen in Texas; would that be considered ok?





Why is this part of the speech considered a rude, poor use, or inappropriate use of the 1st Amendment so it should be legally stopped, yet someone publishing a book about how to be a child predator is ok?





Should any school be controlling\censoring what is in these speeches? Isn't part of education teaching those to be grown ups and branch out on their own? What was it she was actually going to say? With out that it seems like jumping to conclusions based on one's beliefs.





According to the article this is a long standing tradition for this school and an area that is pretty Catholic. Why is it an issue now? Why not allow the speaker to prefix their statement with something along the lines of "I would like to make a little prayer so please pray in your own religious or non-religious manner?"





Does the NFL support 'religion' by allowing the prayer circles before and after games on the football field?







Just some things to think about as it seems like the black&white or gray shifts unequally with only certain tolerances.



And really, why not allow her to do it separately to those that want to be a part of that section of the speech.

ding ding ding, we as a society seem to pick and choose too readily what is right or wrong at any given point.



I can see both sides of this issue. Whose rights are being more infringed on here, those that want to hear a prayer, or those that don't????

 

[jakobeast]

What if the student were to talk about how 'unfair' the gov't unions have been treated in other states and spoke about how it should not happen in Texas; would that be considered ok?



For this argument yes, cause we are talking about forced prayer.





Why is this part of the speech considered a rude, poor use, or inappropriate use of the 1st Amendment so it should be legally stopped, yet someone publishing a book about how to be a child predator is ok?



This is a school that is funded by the government. If the kid says a Christian prayer, by extension the school is endorsing Christianity.



Should any school be controlling\censoring what is in these speeches? Isn't part of education teaching those to be grown ups and branch out on their own? What was it she was actually going to say? With out that it seems like jumping to conclusions based on one's beliefs.





According to the article this is a long standing tradition for this school and an area that is pretty Catholic. Why is it an issue now? Why not allow the speaker to prefix their statement with something along the lines of "I would like to make a little prayer so please pray in your own religious or non-religious manner?"



I think that's what Kotl was referencing. A moment of silence.





Does the NFL support 'religion' by allowing the prayer circles before and after games on the football field?



Not the same thing. The NFL isn't funded by the government. Also, the prayer circles the players engage in are their on. They aren't making everyone in the stadium join in and pray to their God.







Just some things to think about as it seems like the black&white or gray shifts unequally with only certain tolerances.





And really, why not allow her to do it separately to those that want to be a part of that section of the speech.

I am not picking on you, just answering some questions you raised.











With all that said, I think some folks need to loosen up a bit. Simply put, if the ****** wants to pray let him. Also, if some kid wants to get up and give thanks to his noodley appendage then those same Christians who enjoyed the tolerance of those non Christians had better accord the same respect.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

I am not picking on you, just answering some questions you raised.











With all that said, I think some folks need to loosen up a bit. Simply put, if the ****** wants to pray let him. Also, if some kid wants to get up and give thanks to his noodley appendage then those same Christians who enjoyed the tolerance of those non Christians had better accord the same respect.

But in your reference about the NFL players....they are, by doing their little prayer on the field in front of the fans and cameras, forcing everyone to watch them perform a religious obescience. So they are in truth "forcing" thier religious views on everyone in sight, whether actually there or viewing on tv.



Again...whose freedoms are more important?? One of the things this country was founded on is the right to practice (or not practice) whatever religion you want. I concur wholeheartedly with you rfinal statement.....loosen up you stiff necked prigs.

 

[MassHavoc]

t

But in your reference about the NFL players....they are, by doing their little prayer on the field in front of the fans and cameras, forcing everyone to watch them perform a religious obescience. So they are in truth "forcing" thier religious views on everyone in sight, whether actually there or viewing on tv.

No, that's like saying people who wear crosses and yarmulke 's are forcing their religion upon you.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

No, that's like saying people who wear crosses and yarmulke 's are forcing their religion upon you.

Performing a ritualistic prayer and an article of clothing are two different things.