valedictorian fights judges ban on leading crowd in prayer

[jakobeast]

But in your reference about the NFL players....they are, by doing their little prayer on the field in front of the fans and cameras, forcing everyone to watch them perform a religious obescience. So they are in truth "forcing" thier religious views on everyone in sight, whether actually there or viewing on tv.



Again...whose freedoms are more important?? One of the things this country was founded on is the right to practice (or not practice) whatever religion you want. I concur wholeheartedly with you rfinal statement.....loosen up you stiff necked prigs.

I disagree.



The cameras shouldn't focus in on them anyway while they are praying. To me religion is a private thing. While I say that, I also believe they shouldn't be praying in the open.



As far as the folks in the stadium, they aren't forced to pray with them, they aren't even forced to look at them while they pray. Not to mention what deity are they praying to? The Christian God? Allah? Moses? Maybe it's Vince Lombardi. In any case, they aren't forcing any to pray with them. In this case, this person wants to have everyone pray to that persons deity.



But yes, everyone needs to relax a bit.

 

[TSD]

But in your reference about the NFL players....they are, by doing their little prayer on the field in front of the fans and cameras, forcing everyone to watch them perform a religious obescience. So they are in truth "forcing" thier religious views on everyone in sight, whether actually there or viewing on tv.



Again...whose freedoms are more important?? One of the things this country was founded on is the right to practice (or not practice) whatever religion you want. I concur wholeheartedly with you rfinal statement.....loosen up you stiff necked prigs.

Thats fine. The whole argument is it is a government funded institution. The NFL is a private organization. Thats why street preachers, and religious people that show up to your door arent in violation of the constitution, they are not part of nor representative of the government.

 

[LordKOTL]

ding ding ding, we as a society seem to pick and choose too readily what is right or wrong at any given point.



I can see both sides of this issue. Whose rights are being more infringed on here, those that want to hear a prayer, or those that don't????

Depends on what actually happens:



If it's as the article says, those who don't. If it's simply a moment of silence there's not reason to remove it. If the valedictorian is leading the audience in prayer, then the school would be violating the establishiment clause unless they made the prayer non-manditory (i.e. if I was in that class I could walk out of the ceremony and come back when it's over).



Personally, I think the school should aim for the middle ground and just insert a moment of silence, no led prayer, but for my fellow heathens, they can at least tweet their friends while the christians do their thing rather than being compelled to participate in an act they are constitutionally protected from participating in against their will.

 

[LordKOTL]

I dont think the prayer involves props. What if he called for a moment of silence? I mean you can pray or do whatever? To me same difference. What if they lost a rather popular student and wanted to remember him or her. It's mountains out of molehills.

You missed my point completely. "A moment of silence" is not the issue and as I previously stated, if the school and students were smart, they'd distill it down to that--observe a moment of silence.



My point was, if you're arguing that it's perfectly acceptable for a Christian valedictorian to lead the entire graduation audience in a prayer, then it would also be perfectly acceptable for a Wiccan who would be valedictorian to lead the entire graduation audience in one of their rituals (no props needed).

 

[supraman]

You missed my point completely. "A moment of silence" is not the issue and as I previously stated, if the school and students were smart, they'd distill it down to that--observe a moment of silence.



My point was, if you're arguing that it's perfectly acceptable for a Christian valedictorian to lead the entire graduation audience in a prayer, then it would also be perfectly acceptable for a Wiccan who would be valedictorian to lead the entire graduation audience in one of their rituals (no props needed).

You kept mentioning pentagram thought that was a prop. If a wiccan wants to do that that's fine by me too. If a Muslim wants to pray to Allah, or a jew to Jovah fine too. I mean I see harm in a short pray. Now if it is a sermon it is certainly in bad taste but free speech is free speech take the good with the bad

 

[TSD]

You kept mentioning pentagram thought that was a prop. If a wiccan wants to do that that's fine by me too. If a Muslim wants to pray to Allah, or a jew to Jovah fine too. I mean I see harm in a short pray. Now if it is a sermon it is certainly in bad taste but free speech is free speech take the good with the bad

Thats the thing free speech is not the issue in question, this girl has free speech to pray all she wants and loudly in public no matter who is around, its different when it is for an event of a government institution. You cant lead people in prayer in a government institution plain and simple. This is no different than a teacher doing it in the classroom.



Sure you can find examples of it, like in the article dude said congress starts every session with a prayer. I am assuming the only thing is no one has complained about those yet.



The thing with me is, I just don't care, as an atheist someone praying does not offend me or make me uncomfortable. On the other hand I imagine it no doubt does offend members of other religions. The only time it would bother me is if I had children that were being subject to it.

 

[bri]

So why is it OK to have One Nation Under God in the Pledge. Kids have to say that in school. I am not complaining about it. It is just a question.

 

[sth]

So why is it OK to have One Nation Under God in the Pledge. Kids have to say that in school. I am not complaining about it. It is just a question.

Actually a Federal Court blocked it in 2007. But then the appeals court ruled that it was okay to use last year. Under god wasn't even added till the 50's as an anti-communist measure, because communists were anti-religion.



http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-11/...t-supreme-court-michael-newdow?_s=PM:POLITICS

 

[supraman]

Thats the thing free speech is not the issue in question, this girl has free speech to pray all she wants and loudly in public no matter who is around, its different when it is for an event of a government institution. You cant lead people in prayer in a government institution plain and simple. This is no different than a teacher doing it in the classroom.



Sure you can find examples of it, like in the article dude said congress starts every session with a prayer. I am assuming the only thing is no one has complained about those yet.



The thing with me is, I just don't care, as an atheist someone praying does not offend me or make me uncomfortable. On the other hand I imagine it no doubt does offend members of other religions. The only time it would bother me is if I had children that were being subject to it.

I have recently realized (prior to the start of this thread) that shoving non-religion down everyone's throat is no different than shoving religion down everyone's throat.

 

[LordKOTL]

I have recently realized (prior to the start of this thread) that shoving non-religion down everyone's throat is no different than shoving religion down everyone's throat.

IMHO:



If you tell the valedictorian that she can't have a moment of silence...it's shoving non-religion down someone's throat.



If you tell the valedictorian that it's okay to lead the assembled audience in a prayer...it's shoving religion down someone's throat.



There is middle ground in this issue--no one wants to see it.



Bri: Since I was 10 I refuced to say "under god" because it was against my beliefs. I was called out on it only twice. Once in 5th grade, and got in serious home trouble for it (not that it didn't stop me), and once in 11th grade, and in that case my teacher had my back. In both cases I was caled out by a fellow student, which makes me wonder why he (in both cases it was a guy) was paying more attention to me. Other than that STH has it nailed.

 

[IceHogsFan]

The cameras shouldn't focus in on them anyway while they are praying. To me religion is a private thing. While I say that, I also believe they shouldn't be praying in the open.

Well said.

 

[BigPete]

Should any school be controlling\censoring what is in these speeches? Isn't part of education teaching those to be grown ups and branch out on their own? What was it she was actually going to say? With out that it seems like jumping to conclusions based on one's beliefs.

Would the school 'censor' the student if they got up there and said the word **** a bunch of times? Yes. Why? Because a lot of people find it offensive.



Well guess what, here in America where there are a few hundred million people a great deal of the population finds talk about 'god' offensive. It is only now that those who do have faith are starting to see a silent majority rise up against the previous establishment.



School, unless it is a parochial one, has nothing to do with 'god'. Keep it out of the discussion about where you were the last four years and where you are heading with the rest of your life in your inspirational address.

 

[BigPete]

I have recently realized (prior to the start of this thread) that shoving non-religion down everyone's throat is no different than shoving religion down everyone's throat.

What the ****?



When was the last time you saw a billboard that claimed 'god' doesn't exist? Please help me find the atheist channel on tv. I would like to locate the Anti religion section of the local bookstore, can you assist me?

 

[LordKOTL]

Pete: to me, it's more basal than that. IMHO religion is and should be personal and at least somewhat private.



As farsical as it sounds, I liken this to the valedictorian asking everyone to let her lead them in wiping their asses after a good shit. Yes, most everyone wipes their ass, and it's a good thing that they do. Everyone has different techniques and for the most part not matter how they do it, it gets the job done aside from the odd skidmark here and "breaching the hull" there. But not everyone needs to learn your technique, needs their's criticized, or even needs to see you wipe your own ass or needs you to wipe theirs.



But when it comes to religion...why...why...WHY do some people feel the need to critizise your religion, fling their religion in your face, and in the moment in which you don't want a part of it they treat you like a steaming pile of shit for not embracing their religion?



And this gripe is pan-relgions, not just christianity.

 

[supraman]

What the ****?



When was the last time you saw a billboard that claimed 'god' doesn't exist? Please help me find the atheist channel on tv. I would like to locate the Anti religion section of the local bookstore, can you assist me?

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/for-the-holidays-an-atheism-billboard/

 

[The Count Dante]

I would like to take a moment and pray to God and thank him for NOT being a hockey fan...

 

[supraman]

I would like to take a moment and pray to God and thank him for NOT being a hockey fan...

I wish he was, he would smite those fucking nucks

 

[LordKOTL]

I wish he was, he would smite those fucking nucks

Actually, I think all deities except the chaos deities dropped the ball on that one.



Something tells me that the chaos deities wanted us to know pure elation by winning the Grail, only to see it won by Wankouver afterwards.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

I have recently realized (prior to the start of this thread) that shoving non-religion down everyone's throat is no different than shoving religion down everyone's throat.

BINGO...this is the point I was trying to make.

 

[IceHogsFan]

Well guess what, here in America where there are a few hundred million people a great deal of the population finds talk about 'god' offensive. It is only now that those who do have faith are starting to see a silent majority rise up against the previous establishment.

You really should stop........



Never mind, have at it.