valedictorian fights judges ban on leading crowd in prayer

[BiscuitintheBasket]

I am not picking on you, just answering some questions you raised.











With all that said, I think some folks need to loosen up a bit. Simply put, if the ****** wants to pray let him. Also, if some kid wants to get up and give thanks to his noodley appendage then those same Christians who enjoyed the tolerance of those non Christians had better accord the same respect.

Not picking on me at all as I firmly believe that one should expect criticism of any kind when one posts. So I take it all as discussion, which is why I threw those question out. The questions were intended to be talking points and somewhat contrary to another question or past discussion on this board.



With that said, sometimes perspective needs to come into discussion like this. In this case that perspective is the what is considered social norm for that community around the school. That community is one that very much accepts the Catholic faith and the tradition of the prayer in the speech. Just because some of us live in different communities with differing values and expectations should not make it automatically wrong for that community. For me I can see the side of this being wrong because it is along the lines of religion in school....however is this is a local community norm well. Is it truly violating anything other than the beliefs of the few in that area and outsiders?

 

[BigPete]

You really should stop........



Never mind, have at it.

Okay, thanks for your approval!



http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

"Americans misreport how often they vote, how much they give to charity, and how frequently they use illegal drugs. People are not entirely accurate in their self-reports about other areas as well. Males exaggerate their number of sexual partners, university workers are not very honest about reporting how many photocopies they make. Actual attendance at museums, symphonies and operas does not match survey results. We should not expect religious behavior to be immune to such misreporting." Kirk Hadaway, a sociologists at the United Church of Christ, (1993) 1,2

"... despite the rhetoric, active religious participation remains a minority interest in American life." Tom Flynn, writer for Free Inquiry magazine, (1998).

Approximately 40% of Americans regularly attend church. It is believed that as much as 40% of those polled lie about how much they attend church. So that would put the numbers around 25% actually regularly attend church.



Must not be that important to the majority of the country...seems like a sound argument to me.

 

[BigPete]

That community is one that very much accepts the Catholic faith and the tradition of the prayer in the speech. Just because some of us live in different communities with differing values and expectations should not make it automatically wrong for that community. For me I can see the side of this being wrong because it is along the lines of religion in school....however is this is a local community norm well. Is it truly violating anything other than the beliefs of the few in that area and outsiders?

I'm sorry, but do you really feel that any modern American 'community' is so all encompassing of a single ideology? Just because there are a lot of catholics in that community, it doesn't mean that everyone there believes what they do or should be forced to partake in and listen to a religious activity.



If it was a show on TV I could change the channel, but when I am sitting there in the audience of a commencement ceremony and someone walks up the podium and out of nowhere asks everyone to bow their heads and pray, that is forced upon me. I no longer have the opportunity to avoid that experience.

 

[The Count Dante]

I'm sorry, but do you really feel that any modern American 'community' is so all encompassing of a single ideology? Just because there are a lot of catholics in that community, it doesn't mean that everyone there believes what they do or should be forced to partake in and listen to a religious activity.



If it was a show on TV I could change the channel, but when I am sitting there in the audience of a commencement ceremony and someone walks up the podium and out of nowhere asks everyone to bow their heads and pray, that is forced upon me. I no longer have the opportunity to avoid that experience.

BAH Not forced at all...



Simply? Stand up instead...

 

[BigPete]

BAH Not forced at all...



Simply? Stand up instead...

I still have to HEAR it. Do you suggest I stand up and put my fingers in my ears? I bet you would have a lot more people do that in response (if you only had the two choices of sit and pray or stand in objection). But there is this notion from the media that the majority of this country is ardent christians who go to church every Sunday...that's just not the reality.

 

[supraman]

I'm sorry, but do you really feel that any modern American 'community' is so all encompassing of a single ideology? Just because there are a lot of catholics in that community, it doesn't mean that everyone there believes what they do or should be forced to partake in and listen to a religious activity.



If it was a show on TV I could change the channel, but when I am sitting there in the audience of a commencement ceremony and someone walks up the podium and out of nowhere asks everyone to bow their heads and pray, that is forced upon me. I no longer have the opportunity to avoid that experience.

When I drive by a church their symbolism is forced on me. Should I drive with my eyes closed? We are gonna hear and see things we don't like. I hate seeing the canucks in the playoffs, should that mean they shouldn't be in the playoffs from a legal standpoint.



The PC shit has gone way too far. If a student doesn't like it, tough shit, guess they shoulda been valedictorian

 

[LordKOTL]

Okay, I'll play along with this:



Biscuit/Count:



Assuming you're right and that it is the "norm" for the locale--that most people are at least outwardly religious, then I ask you this:



If the Valedictorian wants to lead the attending audience in a prayer, and is given the go-ahead, can a non-christian student, who is graduating, get up and leave the auditorium for the duration of the prayer? And if so, will this person be chastized, ostracized, and possibly dissallowed from continuing their graduation ceremony "for being a disruptive influence"?



If the answer to the latter is "yes", then it is forcing religion upon them, pure and simple. And that case is EXACTLY what the estabishment clause is supposed to prevent.

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

What the ****?



When was the last time you saw a billboard that claimed 'god' doesn't exist? Please help me find the atheist channel on tv. I would like to locate the Anti religion section of the local bookstore, can you assist me?

These popped up quite a bit. American Atheists do have a modest ad campaign. There were some articles about this last holiday season.



Vegas Billboards circa 2009



Chicago. I remember this one.

I honestly would not want an "Atheist" section in a bookstore.

Takes the fun out of searching for Dawkins books.

 

[TSD]

Not picking on me at all as I firmly believe that one should expect criticism of any kind when one posts. So I take it all as discussion, which is why I threw those question out. The questions were intended to be talking points and somewhat contrary to another question or past discussion on this board.



With that said, sometimes perspective needs to come into discussion like this. In this case that perspective is the what is considered social norm for that community around the school. That community is one that very much accepts the Catholic faith and the tradition of the prayer in the speech. Just because some of us live in different communities with differing values and expectations should not make it automatically wrong for that community. For me I can see the side of this being wrong because it is along the lines of religion in school....however is this is a local community norm well. Is it truly violating anything other than the beliefs of the few in that area and outsiders?

While I agree the following are extreme examples, but you get my point.



If the majority of a community this its ok to own slaves should they be able to?

If the majority of a community this its ok to stone people, lynch them etc for various crimes should they be able to?

If the majority of a community doesn't like X type of people and openly discriminate against them is it ok to?



While hardly the same situations as the story, our constitution and laws are designed to protect the minority from the majority, in instances where just because the majority supports something, doesn't mean its right.



As I said it really wouldn't bother me in the least bit if someone prayed at this thing, but there are those that might. Many religions take their beliefs very seriously and might be deeply offended by this, I dont know. Christians have gotten just as angry at muslim crap thats perfectly legal and not remotely in violation of the constitution like that dumb mosque in NY, so I suppose they need to learn it goes both ways.

 

[TSD]

When I drive by a church their symbolism is forced on me. Should I drive with my eyes closed? We are gonna hear and see things we don't like. I hate seeing the canucks in the playoffs, should that mean they shouldn't be in the playoffs from a legal standpoint.



The PC shit has gone way too far. If a student doesn't like it, tough shit, guess they shoulda been valedictorian

Supra you are missing the point. Its perfectly fine for private citizens to build churches and shove jesus down your throat all they want. It is not ok when a government run institution openly supports one religion over another.

 

[supraman]

Supra you are missing the point. Its perfectly fine for private citizens to build churches and shove jesus down your throat all they want. It is not ok when a government run institution openly supports one religion over another.

I am not missing the point. Is the valedictorian employed by the government? No. He/she (I think it is a she but not sure) is a private citizen. Also the institution is not supporting one religion over another if it allows any religious prayer by the valedictorian. Maybe the student has something different but I just keep picturing them saying "I'd like to take a moment to thank god for seeing us through these last 4 years and helping us meet the challenges we faced.........Now as we look over the last four year blah blah blah regular valedictorian speech crap"

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

While I agree the following are extreme examples, but you get my point.



If the majority of a community this its ok to own slaves should they be able to?

If the majority of a community this its ok to stone people, lynch them etc for various crimes should they be able to?

If the majority of a community doesn't like X type of people and openly discriminate against them is it ok to?



While hardly the same situations as the story, our constitution and laws are designed to protect the minority from the majority, in instances where just because the majority supports something, doesn't mean its right.



As I said it really wouldn't bother me in the least bit if someone prayed at this thing, but there are those that might. Many religions take their beliefs very seriously and might be deeply offended by this, I dont know. Christians have gotten just as angry at muslim crap thats perfectly legal and not remotely in violation of the constitution like that dumb mosque in NY, so I suppose they need to learn it goes both ways.

Those three examples are far more extreme to what is going on and two (possibly all three) are felonys. Big difference that what is being asked.



There are communities that prefer pork roasts after graduation. Should they be prevented from doing so because of a Muslim student graduating? That is more along the lines of what is being asked. What we don't know is if there was any concessions or even negotioations as to what is being asked.

 

[supraman]

Those three examples are far more extreme to what is going on and two (possibly all three) are felonys. Big difference that what is being asked.



There are communities that prefer pork roasts after graduation. Should they be prevented from doing so because of a Muslim student graduating? That is more along the lines of what is being asked. What we don't know is if there was and concessions or even negotioations as to what is being asked.

What about having cookouts with hamburgers if you have an indian student should that not be allowed. What if the celebration is on a friday and you have no fish, what about the jews.



See how quickly it gets silly.



Again if a teacher or administrator wanted to say the prayer then sure that doesnt fly. But this is a student, someone not employed by the state.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

Okay, I'll play along with this:



Biscuit/Count:



Assuming you're right and that it is the "norm" for the locale--that most people are at least outwardly religious, then I ask you this:



If the Valedictorian wants to lead the attending audience in a prayer, and is given the go-ahead, can a non-christian student, who is graduating, get up and leave the auditorium for the duration of the prayer? And if so, will this person be chastized, ostracized, and possibly dissallowed from continuing their graduation ceremony "for being a disruptive influence"?



If the answer to the latter is "yes", then it is forcing religion upon them, pure and simple. And that case is EXACTLY what the estabishment clause is supposed to prevent.

The linked article points out that it is the norm. A little research shows that they are well devoted, and that there has been a prayer at the commencement for many, many years. This student is not asking for anything out of the ordinary for that location.



As far as walking out, that is something that many are assuming is not possible without ramification. Mostly from our own ideals.





Again, I am far from religious. Just trying to look at this from all sides and with an open mind for both sides. I have travelled around enough that not every region of the US (or even parts of cities), have the same social norms.



Heck I was just in a highly Jewish area in the US over the weekend for a wedding. Plenty of non-Jews attended the ceremony at the Temple and plenty choose not to go for their own beliefs. Plenty did not wear the honorary kippah in the temple either...yet the Muslim groomsman did (out of respect for the ceremony, but he did not have to o either). There was some ribbing, but no one was ostracized for their choices. Sure it was a wedding, but like most large weddings, not everyone knows everyone or even 1/3 of the people attending.

 

[BigPete]

Nice catch Paul, thanks! I need to find the bumber stickers now. There are too many bible thumping and pro McCain/Palin stickers on cars down here in So. IL. There are even some Bush/Cheney stickers still! It's frightening....

 

[LordKOTL]

I am not missing the point. Is the valedictorian employed by the government? No. He/she (I think it is a she but not sure) is a private citizen. Also the institution is not supporting one religion over another if it allows any religious prayer by the valedictorian. Maybe the student has something different but I just keep picturing them saying "I'd like to take a moment to thank god for seeing us through these last 4 years and helping us meet the challenges we faced.........Now as we look over the last four year blah blah blah regular valedictorian speech crap"

Supra, if the issue was what you said, bolded, I don't think anyone could have an issue with it. She says she wants to thank god. take a moment...and then continues.



The thing is, for all indications of the article--it's not as you said. What I gather from the article is she wants to "lead the students in a prayer". Maybe I'm off base here, but whenever I hear "lead in prayer", means she's asking to verbalize a prayer and have the throng of people follow her verbally.



And even though the valedictorian is not employed by the public school, the public school, being a government entity, does have to abide by the establishment clause. Therefore, at the very minimum, they should have to provide an "out" for students who do not wish to participate, and call it a hunch based on personal experience...there is no "out".

 

[BigPete]

Again if a teacher or administrator wanted to say the prayer then sure that doesnt fly. But this is a student, someone not employed by the state.

We hear what you are saying, but consider this: the SCHOOL is giving the student that podium, microphone, and by proxy the attention of thousands of people. They bestowed that honor upon them and they are making that student a part of their official ceremony.

 

[The Count Dante]

I still have to HEAR it. Do you suggest I stand up and put my fingers in my ears? I bet you would have a lot more people do that in response (if you only had the two choices of sit and pray or stand in objection). But there is this notion from the media that the majority of this country is ardent christians who go to church every Sunday...that's just not the reality.

My point is you can do whatever you wish. Stand up. plug your ears, dance a jig...

 

[The Count Dante]

Okay, I'll play along with this:



Biscuit/Count:



Assuming you're right and that it is the "norm" for the locale--that most people are at least outwardly religious, then I ask you this:



If the Valedictorian wants to lead the attending audience in a prayer, and is given the go-ahead, can a non-christian student, who is graduating, get up and leave the auditorium for the duration of the prayer? And if so, will this person be chastized, ostracized, and possibly dissallowed from continuing their graduation ceremony "for being a disruptive influence"?



If the answer to the latter is "yes", then it is forcing religion upon them, pure and simple. And that case is EXACTLY what the estabishment clause is supposed to prevent.

This wasnt my position.



However, I highly doubt that anyone would be "chastized, ostracized, and possibly dissallowed from continuing their graduation ceremony" for standing up and leaving.



But just as Xians are standing for their convictions, so must others. I have been in social situations where I have heard someone say "Well, I'm a Christian, so..." and I have walked away.

 

[LordKOTL]

The linked article points out that it is the norm. A little research shows that they are well devoted, and that there has been a prayer at the commencement for many, many years. This student is not asking for anything out of the ordinary for that location.



As far as walking out, that is something that many are assuming is not possible without ramification. Mostly from our own ideals.





Again, I am far from religious. Just trying to look at this from all sides and with an open mind for both sides. I have travelled around enough that not every region of the US (or even parts of cities), have the same social norms.



Heck I was just in a highly Jewish area in the US over the weekend for a wedding. Plenty of non-Jews attended the ceremony at the Temple and plenty choose not to go for their own beliefs. Plenty did not wear the honorary kippah in the temple either...yet the Muslim groomsman did (out of respect for the ceremony, but he did not have to o either). There was some ribbing, but no one was ostracized for their choices. Sure it was a wedding, but like most large weddings, not everyone knows everyone or even 1/3 of the people attending.

Which is my my wedding is consisting of no more than 18 people total, and I know everyone

. About the most "offensive" thing about it is that there's no alcohol allowed on the premesis, because the insurance on the venue for alcohol could cost more then the combined airfare of my fiancee, her parents, and her brother's flights out here from Slovakia combined.



Seriously, in an ideal world, I think either the Valedictorian will just opt for a moement of silence, or she can continue the led prayer, but there would be nothing wrong with any students that would not want to participate using that time to leave the room and no one take offense to that or tells them to "just put up with it". Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world.