brett05
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I love Frank. Always will. The man is clueless
I love Frank. Always will. The man is clueless
brett05
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He should lose the privelage to vote. He's a disgrace to the game.
Wear and tear of playing everyday? Try throwing unnatural a ball in a violent fashion every five days
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While I understand your point, at least he has the sack to justify his opinion in writing for the debate. I'm going to assume you're simply being over dramatic and using hyperbole here calling him a disgrace solely because you disagree with him rather than, well, much worse.
I do, however, agree with him. I'm more on board his point that Verlander played in 21% of his team's games, which makes him undeserving. I like his analogy of a QB playing in his team's 3 games earning the MVP - it's a justifiable analogy. It's pure ridiculousness a starting pitcher earning a MVP (unless someone pitches every other game...). Besides, pitchers have an award all to themselves.
Sure, a vast majority his 34 starts were quality, but hell, it's a 162 game season. Quantity matters, too.
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brett05
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No hyperbole. Him not putting Verlander on the ballot is akin to those that turn in empty hall of fame ballots
The analogy is 100% invalid of the qb. A pitcher can basically win a game by himself which Verlander did in essence with his quality starts. The qb can do no such thing
The analogy is 100% invalid of the qb. A pitcher can basically win a game by himself which Verlander did in essence with his quality starts. The qb can do no such thing
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I didn't say it was 100% valid, I said justifiable, meaning defensible. And yes, a qb can win a game by himself, same as a pitcher can (I think as you mean). Actually, both positions require others to do their jobs as well. I mean, how many quality starts have we seen, especially here on the Southside, pissed away?
They're both still team games, and Verlander only plays 1 in 5. Weak.
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It's not so much the games but the number of innings he ate and the number of outs he allowed his team to record. That stuff matters too.
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That makes him an ace at his job and a Cy Young Award winner.
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I agree with you, but those are also reasons why a pitcher can be MVP. I don't think Verlander should have won MVP but I'm not bothered with the choice because of the great season he had.
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Aye, he can only do (or is allowed to do) all of those amazing things 1 game of 5.
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i think my biggest argument is the fact that a position player plays one position on defense(well, per game usually) and only goes up to bat one out of every 9 at bats...so there is a break
for a pitcher in a game? ya you get innings breaks for the last couple...but as a pitcher for the first 5-7 innings or however long the starter is in(you're looking closer to 7-CG with a guy like verlander) :
A. He really dictates the defense(of course, the defense completely runs through him..if he plays bad the whole defense nearly goes down with him)
B. He pitches the whole inning for a set number of innings...so he logs more "playing time" than a position player will in a game
i mean, isnt that part of the reason pitchers get days off?
usually i feel that Cy young and MVP are exclusive, in that the best pitcher should take cy young and leave the mvp to the best position player(and in most years thats how it works)
however, when you look at how verlander's stats...and arguably more importantly the way he impacted detroit overall..i think there was a legitimate argument for him being MVP this year and it seems apparent that many endorse this argument
for a pitcher in a game? ya you get innings breaks for the last couple...but as a pitcher for the first 5-7 innings or however long the starter is in(you're looking closer to 7-CG with a guy like verlander) :
A. He really dictates the defense(of course, the defense completely runs through him..if he plays bad the whole defense nearly goes down with him)
B. He pitches the whole inning for a set number of innings...so he logs more "playing time" than a position player will in a game
i mean, isnt that part of the reason pitchers get days off?
usually i feel that Cy young and MVP are exclusive, in that the best pitcher should take cy young and leave the mvp to the best position player(and in most years thats how it works)
however, when you look at how verlander's stats...and arguably more importantly the way he impacted detroit overall..i think there was a legitimate argument for him being MVP this year and it seems apparent that many endorse this argument
Mr. Cub
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I agree. Well said.
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One of the points I was trying to make is how much value he provides in the one game of 5. Verlander pitched 251 innings, which equates to 753 outs. By comparison, while he stood out in the field a lot more, Miguel Cabrera only had 688 total plate appearances. Verlander got more outs than Cabrera had opportunities to drive runs in. This does not necessarily equate but just because one guy plays only once every five days and the other is an "everyday" player does not make the everyday guy more valuable than the pitcher by default.
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That is an outstanding point and very hard to argue against.
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exactly my point....position players play every game yet it could be argued they do not impact the game overall(because of how the game of baseball is constructed) as much as the pitcher does while taking a few games off between
and again i'd like to reiterate that verlander was absolutely dominant and vital to detroit's defense and team overall...he got a triple crown for christ's sake
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The other point is precedence. Now, there have been some pitching seasons that have been better than Verlander's, yet they did not receive MVP recognition because they were pitchers. If you look at the last starting pitcher to win the MVP (Roger Clemens) vs. Verlander, you notice a couple things...
Justin Verlander Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
Roger Clemens Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
1. Verlander was slightly better and more valuable than Clemens was.
2. Verlander gave up more homers, but less hits, less walks, and got more strikeouts per nine innings than Clemens.
The part where Verlander may not have been the true MVP, that I agree with. I believe the true MVP should have been Ellsbury or Bautista. But to say Verlander didn't deserve to win the MVP is erroneous in my opinion. He outperformed the last starter to win the MVP. You can talk about inflated stats, the crappiness of the AL Central vs. whoever Clemens had to face, etc. But there ya go.
Justin Verlander Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
Roger Clemens Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
1. Verlander was slightly better and more valuable than Clemens was.
2. Verlander gave up more homers, but less hits, less walks, and got more strikeouts per nine innings than Clemens.
The part where Verlander may not have been the true MVP, that I agree with. I believe the true MVP should have been Ellsbury or Bautista. But to say Verlander didn't deserve to win the MVP is erroneous in my opinion. He outperformed the last starter to win the MVP. You can talk about inflated stats, the crappiness of the AL Central vs. whoever Clemens had to face, etc. But there ya go.
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Verlander also did a hell of a lot more and was way more valuable than Dennis Eckersley when Eck won the MVP, by the way.
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Why didn't Felix Hernandez (who had fairly similar numbers) receive ANY MVP consideration in 2010?
Edit: ok, since i checked - King was 16th in MVP. Not even top 10...
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Hernandez was 16th in MVP voting in 2010.
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Ok, how does Verlander win the damn thing with comparable numbers to a guy who finished 16th the prior year? What is the difference?
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I read that article by the guy who didn't put him in the top 11 earlier when Buster Olney posted it.
I see his point, but also think that most of the writers had very good reasons for why they chose Verlander. I wouldn't care either way, but as a Red Sox or Jays fan I would feel jipped.
I see his point, but also think that most of the writers had very good reasons for why they chose Verlander. I wouldn't care either way, but as a Red Sox or Jays fan I would feel jipped.