Shakes
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According to Larry Coon's salary cap FAQ they renegotiated his contract:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q52
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q52
Kush77
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TheStig wrote:
The difference between Scottie Pippen and the guy selling TVs is that people pay money to watch Scottie Pippen play basketball. No one pays money to watch a guy sell a TV. They pay money for the TV.
In sports people are the product, that why the whole "I couldn't get away with that at my job" argument fans always make has me rolling my eyes. Yeah you can't get away with it because you don't put 20,000 fans in the seats.
As far as re-doing Pippen's contract, I think the Bulls should have done it. It could of been for 3 years with a raise. They didn't have too, and they didn't, but it would have been a nice gesture for a guy that helped you win 6 titles. But most people feel the 1999 trade was that gesture. I feel the 1999 S&T was done so the Bulls can get some positive pub since they were getting hammered by the media and fans over the breakup. Would they have accommodated Pippen otherwise? I don't know.
The difference between Scottie Pippen and the guy selling TVs is that people pay money to watch Scottie Pippen play basketball. No one pays money to watch a guy sell a TV. They pay money for the TV.
In sports people are the product, that why the whole "I couldn't get away with that at my job" argument fans always make has me rolling my eyes. Yeah you can't get away with it because you don't put 20,000 fans in the seats.
As far as re-doing Pippen's contract, I think the Bulls should have done it. It could of been for 3 years with a raise. They didn't have too, and they didn't, but it would have been a nice gesture for a guy that helped you win 6 titles. But most people feel the 1999 trade was that gesture. I feel the 1999 S&T was done so the Bulls can get some positive pub since they were getting hammered by the media and fans over the breakup. Would they have accommodated Pippen otherwise? I don't know.
Dpauley23
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Fred wrote:
Don't worry you saying the Bulls aren't loyal is number one.
Don't worry you saying the Bulls aren't loyal is number one.
Kush77
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And this whole issue about the Pippen S&T in 1999. the Bulls took on Roy Rogers (who they released before the season) and a 2nd round pick.
So lets stop making it seem like the Bulls took on some terrible contract to do Scottie Pippen a favor. Like Fred said, it was set up so another team could pay him the money. The least you can do for a guy that helped you win 6 titles.
Bottom line it's only the Bulls that are having their loyalty questioned 12 years after the fact by one of the top free agents. not matter how many names people throw out. Most of them were after the dynasty dismantling. Wade was just going off what happened in 1999 with the main players, Phil, MJ, Pippen.
So lets stop making it seem like the Bulls took on some terrible contract to do Scottie Pippen a favor. Like Fred said, it was set up so another team could pay him the money. The least you can do for a guy that helped you win 6 titles.
Bottom line it's only the Bulls that are having their loyalty questioned 12 years after the fact by one of the top free agents. not matter how many names people throw out. Most of them were after the dynasty dismantling. Wade was just going off what happened in 1999 with the main players, Phil, MJ, Pippen.
Fred
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Kush77 wrote:
Just a thought, but here is a quote from Dwayne Wade in 08, shortly before the Bulls pulled a contract Gordon wanted to sign off the table:
“Ben is a very good player…scoring-wise he’s one of the best in the game. There are a lot of teams that would love to have him. He’s a great offensive scorer, a great catch-and-shoot player. That’s not going to change. As long as there’s a basketball and a rim, he’s going to be able to do the same thing.” – Dwayne Wade on Ben Gordon, Summer of 2008
Considering Wade's opinion of Gordon, and the Bulls subsequent actions, I would expect that also factored in to his comments.
Just a thought, but here is a quote from Dwayne Wade in 08, shortly before the Bulls pulled a contract Gordon wanted to sign off the table:
“Ben is a very good player…scoring-wise he’s one of the best in the game. There are a lot of teams that would love to have him. He’s a great offensive scorer, a great catch-and-shoot player. That’s not going to change. As long as there’s a basketball and a rim, he’s going to be able to do the same thing.” – Dwayne Wade on Ben Gordon, Summer of 2008
Considering Wade's opinion of Gordon, and the Bulls subsequent actions, I would expect that also factored in to his comments.
TheStig
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Shakes wrote:
Sorry I stand corrected, I thought it was similar to what happened with KG, where they extended him right after the trade. Thats still the exception. My point was that it wasn't like Football where contracts get torn up constantly.
Sorry I stand corrected, I thought it was similar to what happened with KG, where they extended him right after the trade. Thats still the exception. My point was that it wasn't like Football where contracts get torn up constantly.
TheStig
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Kush77 wrote:
Fine, look at movie stars then. They put asses in the seats. Do you think those guys make the vast majority of profits? A lead actor might make 10-200 mill and the move will make 500+ million after box office, vids, merchandise and ext. Its business. The people who take risk get rewarded. Pippen had no risk, he was so risk adversed that he went as far as to get the longest deal possible. It was a good salary back then, he wasn't underpaid when he signed it, he was told not to by everyone but thats what he wanted. When you put your money in a CD, do you make nearly as much as a wise investor? Wouldn't that guy at BB be much better off opening his own store and selling tvs? You can't fault someone for owning a business and sticking to a contract. Its not the nfl where you can rip up a bad deal and pay the good one.
Fine, look at movie stars then. They put asses in the seats. Do you think those guys make the vast majority of profits? A lead actor might make 10-200 mill and the move will make 500+ million after box office, vids, merchandise and ext. Its business. The people who take risk get rewarded. Pippen had no risk, he was so risk adversed that he went as far as to get the longest deal possible. It was a good salary back then, he wasn't underpaid when he signed it, he was told not to by everyone but thats what he wanted. When you put your money in a CD, do you make nearly as much as a wise investor? Wouldn't that guy at BB be much better off opening his own store and selling tvs? You can't fault someone for owning a business and sticking to a contract. Its not the nfl where you can rip up a bad deal and pay the good one.
TheStig
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Fred wrote:
Thats where I think the bad feelings were coming from but not resigning BG isn't unloyal, it was just a poor basketball decision. Wade still shouldn't have spouted off that crap. I will say it again, the bulls are too loyal to a fault, not unloyal.
Thats where I think the bad feelings were coming from but not resigning BG isn't unloyal, it was just a poor basketball decision. Wade still shouldn't have spouted off that crap. I will say it again, the bulls are too loyal to a fault, not unloyal.
hardguy
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"I see Michael Jordan is not there, Scottie Pippen is not there. … You know, these guys are not a part," Wade said. "Things like that. So that is probably one of the biggest things for me, because I am a very loyal person."
He's a very loyal person?! Ask Siohvaugh Wade how loyal he is. He should look in the mirror before he start using the word loyality on another organization he has never been a part of. He just want to keep that Miami lifestyle, get his max deal but at the same time realize that the Heats are going nowhere fast without signing another one of the top free agents this summer so of course he resorts to attacking the most attractive situation for free agents to go to this summer. Loyality, Dwyane? Try reading your own bio once awhile and try to remember who put you up at their home your senior year in high school when your father and step mother were having marital problems. Loyality, really, Flash?!
He's a very loyal person?! Ask Siohvaugh Wade how loyal he is. He should look in the mirror before he start using the word loyality on another organization he has never been a part of. He just want to keep that Miami lifestyle, get his max deal but at the same time realize that the Heats are going nowhere fast without signing another one of the top free agents this summer so of course he resorts to attacking the most attractive situation for free agents to go to this summer. Loyality, Dwyane? Try reading your own bio once awhile and try to remember who put you up at their home your senior year in high school when your father and step mother were having marital problems. Loyality, really, Flash?!
Kush77
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TheStig wrote:
No, movie stars don't make the majority of the profits. And Scottie Pippen wouldn't have either had they redid his contract.
An argument can be made for him not having the contract redone. I understand that point of view. He signed a bad deal in the early 90s and he had to live with it.
No, movie stars don't make the majority of the profits. And Scottie Pippen wouldn't have either had they redid his contract.
An argument can be made for him not having the contract redone. I understand that point of view. He signed a bad deal in the early 90s and he had to live with it.
TheStig
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Kush77 wrote:
Well thats the whole guaranteed/unguaranteed debate.
Its not like JR pushed to lock him up. JR and his agent advised against it but Pip had back problems and wanted the security of a long term deal. If he had developed chronic back injuries like he did at the end of his career, would he have given back his money? He certainly didn't give up a penny when he came back to the bulls and only played 23 games on a 2 yr deal.
My point is that JR isn't unloyal. He is loyal to a fault, if your gonna blast the bulls on something, pick cheapness. Start with never paying the LT, dollar store coaches, defering big money with deng, not even making bg a offer after the boston series, Grant. There is plenty there, just don't go and make up crap.
Well thats the whole guaranteed/unguaranteed debate.
Its not like JR pushed to lock him up. JR and his agent advised against it but Pip had back problems and wanted the security of a long term deal. If he had developed chronic back injuries like he did at the end of his career, would he have given back his money? He certainly didn't give up a penny when he came back to the bulls and only played 23 games on a 2 yr deal.
My point is that JR isn't unloyal. He is loyal to a fault, if your gonna blast the bulls on something, pick cheapness. Start with never paying the LT, dollar store coaches, defering big money with deng, not even making bg a offer after the boston series, Grant. There is plenty there, just don't go and make up crap.
jsain360
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Kush77 wrote:
Pip was told not to sign that deal
Pip was told not to sign that deal
houheffna
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Exactly. People on here need to take a damn business class! Pippen signed the deal because he was a dummy. And trading Scottie and a huge contract (He was no longer worth it at 33 years old by the way, did he offer to give the Blazers any of the money back and renegotiate?) was a big deal for the Bulls, because everybody knows Mark Bryant was the centerpiece to the next dynasty...give me a damn break!
Wade was wrong...dead wrong...
Fred, tell me what Reinsdorf should have done for the sake of loyalty? What more? He brought Pippen back...PIPPEN COULDN'T PLAY BASKETBALL ANYMORE! AND gave him 10mil. Offered Pippen a assistant coaching position (he wanted to coach), gave him an analyst job (saying that Deng has "big balls" on the air pretty much showed that he might not be the best for analysis, plus he got fired from a national analyst position.)
And yeah, he did pay Jordan, which does not justify why Jordan likes JR and some fans don't. I would not give Jordan part of my team either. Because its bad business! He will want control, you think he is going to sit around and be a silent partner with an opinion on the board like Magic Johnson? I doubt it. Not in his DNA it seems. Magic is pure businessman, and he has patience. Jordan wants things his way now. And I would rather have Paxson or even Krause calling the shots than Jordan. Not even close. He got a damn statue, and his number retired, that is good enough...have a good life.
Explain Bob Love? Paxson, Cartwright (Reinsdorf paid for his surgery I believe, for his voice and gave him a big break as a coach)...Randy Brown was financially ruined. Wade was wrong and should have worried about his own organization. Ask Stan Van Gundy about Pat Riley and Miami Heat royalty...
Wade was wrong...dead wrong...
Fred, tell me what Reinsdorf should have done for the sake of loyalty? What more? He brought Pippen back...PIPPEN COULDN'T PLAY BASKETBALL ANYMORE! AND gave him 10mil. Offered Pippen a assistant coaching position (he wanted to coach), gave him an analyst job (saying that Deng has "big balls" on the air pretty much showed that he might not be the best for analysis, plus he got fired from a national analyst position.)
And yeah, he did pay Jordan, which does not justify why Jordan likes JR and some fans don't. I would not give Jordan part of my team either. Because its bad business! He will want control, you think he is going to sit around and be a silent partner with an opinion on the board like Magic Johnson? I doubt it. Not in his DNA it seems. Magic is pure businessman, and he has patience. Jordan wants things his way now. And I would rather have Paxson or even Krause calling the shots than Jordan. Not even close. He got a damn statue, and his number retired, that is good enough...have a good life.
Explain Bob Love? Paxson, Cartwright (Reinsdorf paid for his surgery I believe, for his voice and gave him a big break as a coach)...Randy Brown was financially ruined. Wade was wrong and should have worried about his own organization. Ask Stan Van Gundy about Pat Riley and Miami Heat royalty...
pinkizdead
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the bulls organization can be faulted for being too loyal. i disagree with anyone who says otherwise. jr loves rewarding his guys, and they tend to bend over backwards to reward/help their players. gordon must be banging jr's mom's and neil funk's mom
houheffna
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JR tried with Gordon...twice...Gordon waited until after the deadline...and got overpaid by Detroit...win/win situation...
TheStig
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So when someone else pays him that much its overpaid and not market value like the bulls told him to get an offer. He did, he liked it, he called here, they did nothing and he left. I hardly call the BG negotiations our shining moment.
pinkizdead
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the deng negotiations were the shining moment of the gar/dorf's gm
houheffna
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The Bulls have 6 championship trophies...who called that a shining moment? If you don't think 12mil a year is overpaying for Gordon...go tell that to a Pistons fan...then duck and run...that's a joke. The man has reached his peak...the Bulls got bigger fish to fry, 10 years from now BG won't matter...hell, he don't matter now.
houheffna
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It is sad to see grown men hang on to fairy tales and superstitions like this....
Basketball retardation is rampant and nobody wants to use common sense. What bothers me is people act as if Reinsdorf is obligated to bring Jordan in and let him f--- up his franchise! He doesn't need Jordan and evidently doesn't want him around...neither would I. Jordan has been a lazy bastard every since he stepped off the basketball court. So this incessant whining about him not having a part of the team is asinine. Completely.
Pippen has gotten chance after chance, and a sign and trade for nothing IS doing the player a favor. There was only one absolute in that deal...Pippen got paid. The did renegotiate with Pippen by the way, he turned that deal down also. You don't think Bosh or Lebron would like to have a sign and trade for nothing players so they can go where they want and get a max deal? I hear Fred on the podcast debating about whether the Bulls should give up Noah or not...The Rockets didn't have a debate like that. They gave the Bulls nothing.
Then for people to act as if what Reinsdorf did for Bob Love, Randy Brown, Red Kerr, Stacey King,Jay Williams, BJ, Pax and Cartwright is nothing....give me a damn break! How many of you would have crated a job for Brown or paid for Cartwright's surgery? How many of you would have given Jay Williams a golden parachute after he broke his contractual agreement?
And I have to reiterate, Wade knows how stupid it would have sounded if he was to protest Ben Gordon's contract negotioations with the Bulls, he would have been laughed at. Gordon was not a victim, and shouldn't be brought up. Absolutely crazy...
Basketball retardation is rampant and nobody wants to use common sense. What bothers me is people act as if Reinsdorf is obligated to bring Jordan in and let him f--- up his franchise! He doesn't need Jordan and evidently doesn't want him around...neither would I. Jordan has been a lazy bastard every since he stepped off the basketball court. So this incessant whining about him not having a part of the team is asinine. Completely.
Pippen has gotten chance after chance, and a sign and trade for nothing IS doing the player a favor. There was only one absolute in that deal...Pippen got paid. The did renegotiate with Pippen by the way, he turned that deal down also. You don't think Bosh or Lebron would like to have a sign and trade for nothing players so they can go where they want and get a max deal? I hear Fred on the podcast debating about whether the Bulls should give up Noah or not...The Rockets didn't have a debate like that. They gave the Bulls nothing.
Then for people to act as if what Reinsdorf did for Bob Love, Randy Brown, Red Kerr, Stacey King,Jay Williams, BJ, Pax and Cartwright is nothing....give me a damn break! How many of you would have crated a job for Brown or paid for Cartwright's surgery? How many of you would have given Jay Williams a golden parachute after he broke his contractual agreement?
And I have to reiterate, Wade knows how stupid it would have sounded if he was to protest Ben Gordon's contract negotioations with the Bulls, he would have been laughed at. Gordon was not a victim, and shouldn't be brought up. Absolutely crazy...
TheStig
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houheffna wrote:
I disagree about BG but I am not having this conversation again.
I agree with you to the most part and think thats insane to question their loyatly. They are so loyal its a fault and I have been saying that for awhile. Call them cheap, call them incompetent but not unloyal.
I disagree about BG but I am not having this conversation again.
I agree with you to the most part and think thats insane to question their loyatly. They are so loyal its a fault and I have been saying that for awhile. Call them cheap, call them incompetent but not unloyal.
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