Wade loyalty comments

houheffna

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hou you are the expert at the straw man. i have never seen anyone employ it with greater expertise.

I am an expert of a lot of things, one is a cognitive argument, something you might struggle with...
 

Kush77

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TheStig wrote:
Well thats the whole guaranteed/unguaranteed debate.

Its not like JR pushed to lock him up. JR and his agent advised against it but Pip had back problems and wanted the security of a long term deal. If he had developed chronic back injuries like he did at the end of his career, would he have given back his money? He certainly didn't give up a penny when he came back to the bulls and only played 23 games on a 2 yr deal.

My point is that JR isn't unloyal. He is loyal to a fault, if your gonna blast the bulls on something, pick cheapness. Start with never paying the LT, dollar store coaches, defering big money with deng, not even making bg a offer after the boston series, Grant. There is plenty there, just don't go and make up crap.

Pippen signed a bad deal. I've said that. I really don't know what we're arguing about.

Making up crap? You mean Wade or me? I haven't made up anything.
 

Kush77

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I just find it funny how everyone is so up in arms over Wade's comments.

I don't care what Wade said. I know where he was coming from, not that he's right, but I know how he's looking at it.

JR is loyal to a fault in some ways, and loyal to former players. He treats them well.

I'll ask this question in regards to Pip's 2 year deal in 2003. That was more Pax than JR clearly (of course JR has to approve) but that deal clearly doesn't happen if Krause is there (obviously), but even anyther GM. Pretty much any GM that wasn't a former teammate of Pip. If it was Gar Forman, that deal probably doesn't happen. That was probably Pax talking JR into letting him do that.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Well thats the whole guaranteed/unguaranteed debate.

Its not like JR pushed to lock him up. JR and his agent advised against it but Pip had back problems and wanted the security of a long term deal. If he had developed chronic back injuries like he did at the end of his career, would he have given back his money? He certainly didn't give up a penny when he came back to the bulls and only played 23 games on a 2 yr deal.

My point is that JR isn't unloyal. He is loyal to a fault, if your gonna blast the bulls on something, pick cheapness. Start with never paying the LT, dollar store coaches, defering big money with deng, not even making bg a offer after the boston series, Grant. There is plenty there, just don't go and make up crap.

Pippen signed a bad deal. I've said that. I really don't know what we're arguing about.

Making up crap? You mean Wade or me? I haven't made up anything.

I just don't see what you could have done for him. It sets a very bad precedent. Pippen signed a bad deal but he signed that deal because he didn't expect his back to hold up. That was the reason he insisted on a long term deal. He wanted security and got it. If Pip chronic back issues, he wouldn't have gotten much more than his deal anyway.

No Kush, I meant Wade. With so many REAL concerns, I hate that he made up crap. Its pathetic and shows bad character.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
I just find it funny how everyone is so up in arms over Wade's comments.

I don't care what Wade said. I know where he was coming from, not that he's right, but I know how he's looking at it.

JR is loyal to a fault in some ways, and loyal to former players. He treats them well.

I'll ask this question in regards to Pip's 2 year deal in 2003. That was more Pax than JR clearly (of course JR has to approve) but that deal clearly doesn't happen if Krause is there (obviously), but even anyther GM. Pretty much any GM that wasn't a former teammate of Pip. If it was Gar Forman, that deal probably doesn't happen. That was probably Pax talking JR into letting him do that.

I don't think it was Pax. I think Pax wanted Posey and Posey wanted to come here. I think Pip was JR's choice. Pip had a lot less money committed to him than Posey got over the 5 yr full mle and Pip was a big name and probably a gimmick to sell tickets. Pip wasn't completly done after Portland and was still fielding similar offers. I really doubt that Pax wanted to bring in an old Pippen over a young Posey for a young team.
 

Kush77

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TheStig wrote:
Kush77 wrote:
I just find it funny how everyone is so up in arms over Wade's comments.

I don't care what Wade said. I know where he was coming from, not that he's right, but I know how he's looking at it.

JR is loyal to a fault in some ways, and loyal to former players. He treats them well.

I'll ask this question in regards to Pip's 2 year deal in 2003. That was more Pax than JR clearly (of course JR has to approve) but that deal clearly doesn't happen if Krause is there (obviously), but even anyther GM. Pretty much any GM that wasn't a former teammate of Pip. If it was Gar Forman, that deal probably doesn't happen. That was probably Pax talking JR into letting him do that.

I don't think it was Pax. I think Pax wanted Posey and Posey wanted to come here. I think Pip was JR's choice. Pip had a lot less money committed to him than Posey got over the 5 yr full mle and Pip was a big name and probably a gimmick to sell tickets. Pip wasn't completly done after Portland and was still fielding similar offers. I really doubt that Pax wanted to bring in an old Pippen over a young Posey for a young team.

I disagree. If it was any other GM (other than a former teammate of Pippen) I don't think he comes. I think that was more Pax doing a favor for a former teammate and JR letting Pax do it.

Although I can completely believe your "JR wanted the cheaper option" take on things.

But I think Pax wanted Pip's veteran leadershhip for a young team. Here's a guy who won titles for that franchise and would command respect with the Currys, Chandlers and Crawfords.
 

Kush77

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TheStig wrote:
I just don't see what you could have done for him. It sets a very bad precedent. Pippen signed a bad deal but he signed that deal because he didn't expect his back to hold up. That was the reason he insisted on a long term deal. He wanted security and got it. If Pip chronic back issues, he wouldn't have gotten much more than his deal anyway.

No Kush, I meant Wade. With so many REAL concerns, I hate that he made up crap. Its pathetic and shows bad character.

I understand setting a bad precedent, but I would think an exception could be made for the 2nd best player in franchise history. It's not like it's Luol Deng or someone who accomplished less. But that's just my opinion.

Scottie made his bed and he had to lay in it. He also didn't do himself any favors with the things he did when Jordan was retired.
 

Fred

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Here are some quotes from the Press Conference announcing Michael Jordon's part-ownership position in Wizards, less than 2 years after he retired. These quotes from the greatest player ever I am sure resonated with Dwayne Wade, as they did with me. It's true that Jerry has been loyal to many, many, many employees. Jordan said he was never offered an ownership opportunity with the Bulls. Obviously, Wade recalls a different relationship with the Bulls most important employee, as highlighted in some of these quotes:

Feb 2000
Basketball legend Michael Jordan has returned to the NBA as part-owner of the Washington Wizards. Jordan also will serve as president of basketball operations for the Wizards.
Jordan, who led the Chicago Bulls to six NBA championships before retiring last year, will still live in Chicago and commute to Washington, D.C.

"This is is new to me ... being in a city to give my support to another team."

"Normally I am in support of the Chicago Bulls."

"I was drafted by Chicago. We were at the bottom of the totem pole to some degree, and it took us some work to get to the top"

"Quite honestly, I was never offered this situation in Chicago."

"Chicago is taking a different direction."

"I haven't had an opportunity to tell Jerry about it. But I'm pretty sure he can read."

"For the last year, I've been involved in some ownership opportunities."

"I don't have any regrets or any animosity toward (Reinsdorf) for not offering me an opportunity to be with the Bulls. The best way for them to start over is probably to start over fresh. That's the direction they chose"

And what a direction, huh? 12 years. Worst record in NBA history for a 6 season span from 1998-2004. 1 playoff series win.
 

houheffna

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Yep and then Old Honest Abe dumped his ass, for incompetence...you really, REALLY wanted that with the Bulls? You should be glad he didn't come here based on that...
 

TheStig

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Fred, investors own the bulls, why would they sell an A++++ investment during their peak value right after MJ left and they were leading the league in profits?
 

pinkizdead

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personally i think we should have made mj a general manager. he's got a real eye for talent. i mean look at the borris diaw raja bell trade. they got ride of a crappy player like richardson and gave up a crappy contract/bench player in dudly.

plus they got vlad randmonovich for shanon brown. they got some talented players that are still contributing to their team and gave up some role players.

mj's a real stud. i want him involved in the organization.

dont even get me started about how amazing his drafting abilities are.
 

Shakes

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Fred wrote:
And what a direction, huh? 12 years. Worst record in NBA history for a 6 season span from 1998-2004. 1 playoff series win.

In other words you're saying we've won more playoff series than teams MJ have been involved in have won playoff games.
 

jsain360

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houheffna wrote:
The Bulls have 6 championship trophies...who called that a shining moment? If you don't think 12mil a year is overpaying for Gordon...go tell that to a Pistons fan...then duck and run...that's a joke. The man has reached his peak...the Bulls got bigger fish to fry, 10 years from now BG won't matter...hell, he don't matter now.

Finally, wisdow. Ben was good for the team, but keeping him was not a necessisty, you can find a Ben Gordon type player in the draft most years anyway.
 

jsain360

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houheffna wrote:
Exactly. People on here need to take a damn business class! Pippen signed the deal because he was a dummy. And trading Scottie and a huge contract (He was no longer worth it at 33 years old by the way, did he offer to give the Blazers any of the money back and renegotiate?) was a big deal for the Bulls, because everybody knows Mark Bryant was the centerpiece to the next dynasty...give me a damn break!

Wade was wrong...dead wrong...

Fred, tell me what Reinsdorf should have done for the sake of loyalty? What more? He brought Pippen back...PIPPEN COULDN'T PLAY BASKETBALL ANYMORE! AND gave him 10mil. Offered Pippen a assistant coaching position (he wanted to coach), gave him an analyst job (saying that Deng has "big balls" on the air pretty much showed that he might not be the best for analysis, plus he got fired from a national analyst position.)

And yeah, he did pay Jordan, which does not justify why Jordan likes JR and some fans don't. I would not give Jordan part of my team either. Because its bad business! He will want control, you think he is going to sit around and be a silent partner with an opinion on the board like Magic Johnson? I doubt it. Not in his DNA it seems. Magic is pure businessman, and he has patience. Jordan wants things his way now. And I would rather have Paxson or even Krause calling the shots than Jordan. Not even close. He got a damn statue, and his number retired, that is good enough...have a good life.

Explain Bob Love? Paxson, Cartwright (Reinsdorf paid for his surgery I believe, for his voice and gave him a big break as a coach)...Randy Brown was financially ruined. Wade was wrong and should have worried about his own organization. Ask Stan Van Gundy about Pat Riley and Miami Heat royalty...

Where was the Heat loyalty to Antoine Walker, if he was Bulls, JR would have made a position for him, they would've made him spin move coach.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Kush77 wrote:
I just find it funny how everyone is so up in arms over Wade's comments.

I don't care what Wade said. I know where he was coming from, not that he's right, but I know how he's looking at it.

JR is loyal to a fault in some ways, and loyal to former players. He treats them well.

I'll ask this question in regards to Pip's 2 year deal in 2003. That was more Pax than JR clearly (of course JR has to approve) but that deal clearly doesn't happen if Krause is there (obviously), but even anyther GM. Pretty much any GM that wasn't a former teammate of Pip. If it was Gar Forman, that deal probably doesn't happen. That was probably Pax talking JR into letting him do that.

I don't think it was Pax. I think Pax wanted Posey and Posey wanted to come here. I think Pip was JR's choice. Pip had a lot less money committed to him than Posey got over the 5 yr full mle and Pip was a big name and probably a gimmick to sell tickets. Pip wasn't completly done after Portland and was still fielding similar offers. I really doubt that Pax wanted to bring in an old Pippen over a young Posey for a young team.

I disagree. If it was any other GM (other than a former teammate of Pippen) I don't think he comes. I think that was more Pax doing a favor for a former teammate and JR letting Pax do it.

Although I can completely believe your "JR wanted the cheaper option" take on things.

But I think Pax wanted Pip's veteran leadershhip for a young team. Here's a guy who won titles for that franchise and would command respect with the Currys, Chandlers and Crawfords.

I remember reading an article that Posey wanted to come here and that JR wanted Pip. I can't find it anywhere but I don't think Pax was bringing in pippen. It is such a JR move.
 

Fred

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New York Times, July 24th, 1998
Jackson's agent, Todd Musburger, said his client was flabbergasted at Reinsdorf's comments during a Bulls news conference in Chicago yesterday (to announce the hiring of Tim Floyd). That reaction left Reinsdorf's olive branch to Jackson looking like a public relations tactic, and a way of deflecting blame from himself and Jerry Krause, the team's vice president, should Jordan remain steadfast in his stand to leave the Bulls unless Jackson is the coach.

''It's so transparent and so disingenuous and so much the result of this spin doctoring, if you will,'' Musburger said of Reinsdorf's appeal to Jackson. ''There isn't an ounce of legitimacy to what was said. Are we to believe that Phil, the head coach, and Floyd, the coach to be, would occupy the same space in that organization? It is positively ludicrous. Once again, they have proved their skill at sucking the joy out of the moment. Floyd should have been properly praised and announced. Instead, he had to pretend he was window dressing.''

Reinsdorf said he hired Floyd only after offering Jackson a chance to return for another year, an offer that still stands.

''Sure, he made the offer, but after Phil had spent two days packing up his office,'' Musburger said. ''So if you're really sincere about keeping someone you truly value, do you announce his contract in the summer of 1997 as the last deal the Bulls will ever do with you? And along the way, will you say to him in private, I don't care if you win 82 games, you are not coming back? Is that the way you treat a man you want to return?''


Is that the way you treat a man you want to return? Of course not.

Loyal: faithful to a private person to whom fidelity is due. In the Bulls case, it applied to Krause and not Jackson. Obviously, the PR move worked on a lot of the fans. Apparently, a young Dwayne Wade wasn't drinking the Kool Aid.
 

TheStig

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Kush77 wrote:
TheStig wrote:
I just don't see what you could have done for him. It sets a very bad precedent. Pippen signed a bad deal but he signed that deal because he didn't expect his back to hold up. That was the reason he insisted on a long term deal. He wanted security and got it. If Pip chronic back issues, he wouldn't have gotten much more than his deal anyway.

No Kush, I meant Wade. With so many REAL concerns, I hate that he made up crap. Its pathetic and shows bad character.

I understand setting a bad precedent, but I would think an exception could be made for the 2nd best player in franchise history. It's not like it's Luol Deng or someone who accomplished less. But that's just my opinion.

Scottie made his bed and he had to lay in it. He also didn't do himself any favors with the things he did when Jordan was retired.

Kush, its been done once for a trade.
 

Fred

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houheffna wrote:
Yep and then Old Honest Abe dumped his ass, for incompetence...you really, REALLY wanted that with the Bulls? You should be glad he didn't come here based on that...

Is that the same Honest Abe who signed Arenas to that brilliant contract? The fact that Abe fired him only solidifies his status as a complete dumb ass.
 

TheStig

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Fred wrote:
houheffna wrote:
Yep and then Old Honest Abe dumped his ass, for incompetence...you really, REALLY wanted that with the Bulls? You should be glad he didn't come here based on that...

Is that the same Honest Abe who signed Arenas to that brilliant contract? The fact that Abe fired him only solidifies his status as a complete dumb ass.

I certainly didn't see a whole lot of promise in the team Jordan assembled. Even when he injected himself, they couldn't even grab an eight seed. Why would you want that back?
 

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