We can exile Sammy Sosa without forgiveness yet hire Manny Ramirez as player/coach?

[diavolos]

You made a list "off the top of your head of who you thought was better suited to the task. The top of your head fails you. #everythingcubsdoisshitregardless

the top of my head fails me because one person on the list got a couple dui's? lol #fanboylogicisshitregardless

 

[nwfisch]

That's not the way high level pro players communicate with each other. He's not going to walk up to Baez and make a bunch of comments about his approach that get in his head. If they wanted to do that, they could have just demoted Sveum. MLBers communicate by asking and sharing, not telling. They've heard enough shit and cues over the years that most aren't very receptive to concepts different from their own...unless they are at the point of failure/not moving up in the system.

So wait a minute are you saying that you worked/played professional baseball?

 

[Parade_Rain]

there is a difference between being talented and having good fundamentals. clearly something that is completely lost on you.

You should describe what a good swing looks like and why Manny's wasn't good.

 

[The Bandit]

clearly you have a lot to learn about baseball if you think batting avg is the only determining factor of a players fundamentals. great insight. vladimir guerrero had a higher career ba than ramirez did, so guess it would be a good idea to have him teaching the kids in the minors how to hit breaking balls bouncing in the dirt the other way huh?

Telling others to learn? Funny coming from the most repetitive and dull poster here. Keep reaching at a minor move by the organization.

wrong. never suggested those players were options to coach. just was asked to provide names of players who i thought would be better at mentoring young players. keep grasping.

So you named guys... that you would rather coach then Manny.... but you have no idea if they even were an option to coach?

you want them to learn from a guy who got caught cheating and quit on his team? what about the other 15 or so names? lol #fanboys being fanboys

I'm sure Theo told Manny to put an extra day into taking roids without getting caught for the kids.

again if your only insight is that hitting is the only factor that makes a fundamentally sound ballplayer you should quit while you are behind like you said you were going to. quitting would be a very manny ramirez thing to do also. go to any non-cubs baseball message board and start a thread claiming manny ramirez is a solid fundamental baseball player and let's see what the reaction is. please post a link as well.

Considering Manny has been regarded numerous times in this thread as one of the most fundamentally sound hitters in the past 50 years, and was hired as a hitting only coach, I'd say that his gaffs in the field have no bearing here.

Which fundamentals are you even talking about? Fielding? If you're suggesting he's a shit defender then fine. I agree. But he's not a fucking fielding coach. They hired him to help hitting and he's one of the top hitters of the past 50 years.

Just give up, it's like arguing with a monkey, all he's gonna do is throw his shit and laugh.

 

[diavolos]

You should describe what a good swing looks like and why Manny's wasn't good.

so you are saying the hands held high and behind his ear, the bat waggle while the pitcher winds up, the high front leg kick and the long swing are something that should be taught to every young player? it clearly worked for him, but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone else.

 

[nwfisch]

I don't get how people think hiring a coach in the minors is a small potatoes move. All of the value the Cubs have is in the minors.

 

[Parade_Rain]

so you are saying the hands held high and behind his ear, the bat waggle while the pitcher winds up, the high front leg kick and the long swing are something that should be taught to every young player? it clearly worked for him, but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone else.

You just described everything that isn't the swing and is personal style. IOW, you don't understand shit about the fundamentals of swing mechanics.

 

[beckdawg]

there is a difference between being talented and having good fundamentals. clearly something that is completely lost on you.

As a hitter he walked 13.6% of the time and struck out 18.5%. As a comparison, Mike Trout was at 15.4%/19.0%. Batting eye is a fundamental. Pitch recognition is a fundamental. If you have a legit gripe then fucking explain it. Don't just throw out this nebulous statement that he has "poor fundamentals." Exactly what do you think he did poorly? Because he walked at a very good rate and struck out at a more than acceptable rate. Typically anything over 10% walk rate is pretty good and anything under 20% k rate is pretty good. You combine that all with the fact he hit for a .312 career batting average a .411 career on base and a .585 career slugging and I find it very difficult to believe your statement.

You threw out Vlad as an example. Vlad was a career 8.1%/10.9% walk/k rate. He survived because he had elite contact. In other words, he put the ball into play 81% of the time. League average on balls in play is .300 so to see that he's a career .318 hitter isn't surprising especially when you throw in the fact he had elite speed. Contact and speed are natural gifts that are harder to teach. Manny on the contrary had neither elite speed nor great contact(68% balls in play). Vlad had a 19.0% line drive rate. Manny on the contrary had 22.6% line drive rate. This when added in with his high walk rate suggests he survived more on pitch selection not god given talent. That is supposedly the reasoning for them hiring.

So, if you're going to make this argument that he had poor hitting fundamentals then be specific and give some evidence to back it up because there's nothing in the numbers that agrees with you.

 

[policeman]

I didn't have strong opinions about the Manny Ramirez hiring. I couldn't care less about Manny or Sammy Sosa. However, David Haugh is opposed to it- and whatever David Haugh opposes- I support.

 

[beckdawg]

I don't get how people think hiring a coach in the minors is a small potatoes move. All of the value the Cubs have is in the minors.

It would be if Manny were the only coach. They still have a AAA hitting coach. He's more a special assistant than a full fledged hitting coach. That's why I said before that it's not like he's going to be adjusting Baez's hitting mechanics. I imagine they are just using him to talk to the players about how he studied pitchers in the majors. The article I posted that you mocked talked about how he was quite active in watching tape on pitchers. If he can impart that on some of the top prospects at this point in their careers then it will be an obvious positive.

If that is how they use him then I don't see how he can really cause harm. If he teaches them to watch tape poorly and it doesn't work for those guys they will eventually realize what he said isn't working for them and do something else. If they were having Manny tinker with players swings then yeah I'd be worried but I really don't see them doing that.

 

[diavolos]

You just described everything that isn't the swing and is personal style. IOW, you don't understand shit about the fundamentals of swing mechanics.

so pointing out that he had a very long swing is describing everything that isn't the swing? lol #fanboysbeingfanboys

 

[Parade_Rain]

so pointing out that he had a very long swing is describing everything that isn't the swing? lol #fanboysbeingfanboys

Speaking as a professional hitting instructor, nothing you described creates a long swing. OTOH, a dumbass would coach those style elements out of a player and negatively impact his timing and separation of lower and upper half.

 

[diavolos]

Batting eye is a fundamental. Pitch recognition is a fundamental.

no it isn't. that is talent. you cant teach hitters to have a good batting eye. you either have it or you don't, it cant be taught.

i have pointed out all the things in his swing and asked if you wanted the cubs young hitters taught to do that. no one has answered yes. he was a great hitter and put up great numbers because he was talented. not because he had great fundamentals. and now you are defending manny with his lack of contact as being a good fundamental hitter? what part of being a poor contact hitter is great fundamentals?

again, please go to a baseball message board that isn't focused on manny and start a thread about how he was a great fundamental player and let's see what the non fanboy reaction is and provide a link.

 

[diavolos]

Speaking as a professional hitting instructor

lol!!!!!!!!

 

[diavolos]

Speaking as a professional hitting instructor, nothing you described creates a long swing. OTOH, a dumbass would coach those style elements out of a player and negatively impact his timing and separation of lower and upper half.

of course you wouldn't coach those elements out of a player hitting over .300, but of course you wouldn't touch any of those things in a player hitting .150 and just leave him be huh?

manny had a very long swing.

all that worked for manny cause he had a great amount of talent, not cause he was fundamentally sound.

 

[The Bandit]

no it isn't. that is talent. you cant teach hitters to have a good batting eye. you either have it or you don't, it cant be taught.

i have pointed out all the things in his swing and asked if you wanted the cubs young hitters taught to do that. no one has answered yes. he was a great hitter and put up great numbers because he was talented. not because he had great fundamentals. and now you are defending manny with his lack of contact as being a good fundamental hitter? what part of being a poor contact hitter is great fundamentals?

again, please go to a baseball message board that isn't focused on manny and start a thread about how he was a great fundamental HITTER and let's see what the non fanboy reaction is and provide a link.

Fixed.

 

[Parade_Rain]

of course you wouldn't coach those elements out of a player hitting over .300, but of course you wouldn't touch any of those things in a player hitting .150 and just leave him be huh?

manny had a very long swing.

all that worked for manny cause he had a great amount of talent, not cause he was fundamentally sound.

You should stop posting on the subject. Your ignorance of the subject matter shows the more you post. And no. You don't coach loading, timing and staying loose elements out of the player hitting .150 either...not even if they are 10 years old. You haven't explained in anyway what the actual elements of the swing are that are important to quickness and power.

 

[diavolos]

You should stop posting on the subject. Your ignorance of the subject matter shows the more you post. And no. You don't coach loading, timing and staying loose elements out of the player hitting .150 either...not even if they are 10 years old. You haven't explained in anyway what the actual elements of the swing are that are important to quickness and power.

you haven't explained in anyway how manny was a great fundamental hitter instead of a great talent. please provide documentation on your professional hitting coach experience as well.

 

[The Bandit]

you haven't explained in anyway how manny was a great fundamental hitter instead of a great talent. please provide documentation on your professional hitting coach experience as well.

Talent only get's you so far. In order to do what he did over the course of his career required fundamentals.

 

[beckdawg]

no it isn't. that is talent. you cant teach hitters to have a good batting eye. you either have it or you don't, it cant be taught.

i have pointed out all the things in his swing and asked if you wanted the cubs young hitters taught to do that. no one has answered yes. he was a great hitter and put up great numbers because he was talented. not because he had great fundamentals. and now you are defending manny with his lack of contact as being a good fundamental hitter? what part of being a poor contact hitter is great fundamentals?

You can't teach a player to recognize pitches? Um... ok. As for contact, I didn't say he had poor contact. I said he didn't have great contact. Manny's contact was 80.5% while his swing% was 44.7%. Fangraphs has stats on 653 players in terms of plate discipline. 80.5% puts Manny at 348th out of 653 or roughly average. If you want to break this up even further, Manny's z-contact was 87.0% of balls in the strike zone he made contact with. His swinging strike% is 8.4% or 302 out of 653.

I should also clarify, I said vlad had elite contact and what I should have said he was elite at putting the ball into play vs K's/BB's. Vlad's actual contact% was 80.7%. The biggest difference between him and Manny was that his swing% was 59.1%. At 44.7% swing% that means Manny took a lot of pitches. Yes, I want him teaching young hitters this. It's frankly one of the biggest problems I have with Castro. If you make a pitcher work a count to 5-6 pitches over your 4 appearances a game that drives starters out of games and gets into the bullpen where there are often inferior pitchers. Of the 44.7% of swings Manny took, 69.5% of them were in the zone.

Either way, there's nothing that suggests Manny had large holes in his swing. The data suggests a patient hitter with average contact and elite power. The data suggests that he waited for pitches in the zone that he could hit and then drove them. And if he didn't get them, he'd often walk and was good enough at fouling off pitches that he didn't get killed by strikeouts. Learning what pitches a pitcher has and which you can handle is a fundamental aspect of the game. Manny wasn't like Vlad in that he took a swing at nearly 60% of pitches and was able to put them in play because of his talent. Manny worked a count and took swings at pitches in the zone most of the time.

If you don't think that's teachable then I don't know that there's anything more to discuss. I'll just point to the maturation of Rizzo. The last 2 years he took a swing at 38.5% and 30% of pitches outside the zone. This year he's down to 24.3%. And you can tell because his walk total is up 6.5% and his K's are down 2.8%. Like wise, Rizzo's on base is up 73 points.