What Theo needs to do in 2018

Parade_Rain

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"We saw the best of Ian Happ; Schwarber has MVP ceiling." IOW, his rookie production is what Happ is going to be. That's not believable. Every other prospect the Cubs have brought up were supposedly going to lower their K rates, improve BB rate, etc. But Happ can't? So Theo made a mistake drafting the best hitter in D1 baseball? And of course Schwarber has an MVP ceiling and other clubs believe that same thing, but Happ is more tradeable than Schwarber? Weird.

This is what was said about Happ draft-

"We definitely feel there's strength there, and he's a guy who can run into 15 home runs plus and hit for a high average," said Jason McLeod, senior vice president of scouting and player development. "We're big on guys who can control the strike zone and show that plate discipline.

"We really feel he was one of the top if not the best college hitter in this year's Draft," McLeod said. "We feel really confident in that."
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/129367126/cubs-select-college-outfielder-ian-happ-at-no-9/
 

Omeletpants

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It's funny:

-Schwaber plays like shit this year and people say he is an MVP caliber player

-Happ has a breakout rookie season and everyone says he has maxed out

fact is that Schwarber is a wilful, stubborn one trick pony that lumbers on defense and has no place except as a DH
 

anotheridiot

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It's funny:

-Schwaber plays like shit this year and people say he is an MVP caliber player

-Happ has a breakout rookie season and everyone says he has maxed out

fact is that Schwarber is a wilful, stubborn one trick pony that lumbers on defense and has no place except as a DH

Some of us were saying this at other forums when Schwarber was drafted. But we will still use up another roster spot or two on backup catchers again.
 

beckdawg

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"We saw the best of Ian Happ; Schwarber has MVP ceiling." IOW, his rookie production is what Happ is going to be. That's not believable. Every other prospect the Cubs have brought up were supposedly going to lower their K rates, improve BB rate, etc. But Happ can't? So Theo made a mistake drafting the best hitter in D1 baseball? And of course Schwarber has an MVP ceiling and other clubs believe that same thing, but Happ is more tradeable than Schwarber? Weird.

This is what was said about Happ draft-

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/129367126/cubs-select-college-outfielder-ian-happ-at-no-9/

Think your quote from McLeod says it all. They thought he was a 15 HR hitter and he hit 33(if you include AAA) which should tell you why Sahadev Sharma thinks it would be selling high. Can Happ lower his K rate? Certainly. But that's isn't really going to make him all that more valuable. And any team acquiring him will assume like an young player those numbers come down. As for why you deal him, do you really think there's more power in his bat? If the answer is no then that's selling high. Outside of waiting for him to be an all-star player(if he even gets there) his value isn't going much higher.

As for Schwarber, he hit 30 HRs in a year where he hit .211. Without stretching much it's not difficult to see him routinely be a 40+ HR guy. His peak years may be 50+. What gets lost in Schwarber's struggle was what he did in the minors. For reference here Happ was a .275/.362/.472 hitter in the minors. So, seeing him hit .253/.328/.514... there's a little room to grow on what you'd expect him to be but not a ton. Schwarber on the other hand hit .334/.432/.619 in the minors. He was a complete hitter in the minors. He hasn't been that so far in the majors. I'll leave the "why" to other people but if you hit .330 in any league you're a great hitter. Schwarber in the majors hasn't even approached good. And the other thing is he wasn't even a big K threat in the minors. He struck out 141 times in 665 PAs or a 21.2% k rate. So clearly there is a vast difference between the player Schwarber was in the minors and what he has been in the majors. Does he get better? Who knows but you can see sparks of what he can be. He's been a monster in playoff baseball where you see the best of the best. Just needs to do that more consistently.

As for why Happ is more tradable, think that is pretty obvious. You have both him and Baez at 2B. I've made the case as to why you would deal Baez but to put it bluntly if Happ has anywhere near the value Baez does trade wise I'd probably deal Happ first because however I feel about Baez it's clear you can't just find people who have his defense. As for CF for Happ, he's not amazing there and when he did play there they moved him as soon as was feasible. That leaves LF which is Schwarber vs Happ. That's a case of selling low on Schwarber or selling at near the peak for Happ.
 

anotheridiot

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anyone acquiring Happ is going to see Ben Zobrist 2.0 and a steal for the next 3 years.
 

beckdawg

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anyone acquiring Happ is going to see Ben Zobrist 2.0 and a steal for the next 3 years.

Happ might be as good of a hitter but I don't think it's a fair comparison. In his younger days Zobrist could play ever position except for C at a decently high level defensively. When I say that I mean he could probably have been gold glove caliber at every where except SS and CF where he was just "good." Happ isn't that kind of defender.
 

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The difference between Happ and Schwarber is attitude. Happ is guy willing to learn and tries hard. Schwarber is a willful and hell-bound to do it his way. He is going to pull the ball no matter where it is into a shift. 6" off the plate? No problem for Schwarber cause his ego wont let him do anything but pull, He does hit HRs to left field but only when he swings late. Schwarber is also toast against hard throwers and left handers, Happ doesnt have that problem
 

beckdawg

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The difference between Happ and Schwarber is attitude. Happ is guy willing to learn and tries hard. Schwarber is a willful and hell-bound to do it his way. He is going to pull the ball no matter where it is into a shift. 6" off the plate? No problem for Schwarber cause his ego wont let him do anything but pull, He does hit HRs to left field but only when he swings late. Schwarber is also toast against hard throwers and left handers, Happ doesnt have that problem

Theo literally said the opposite about Schwarber's attitude just FYI.
 

beckdawg

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Attitude towards plate discipline. I already know he is a good locker room guy

I mean theo said he was open to working to get better. I wouldn't consider someone with that attitude head strong or egotistical . I think his issues are less to do with attitude and more to do with the way teams pitch him. Rizzo had a number of the same issues coming up. I suppose you're viewing that as him being hard headed but my view is more he can't do much else presently with it. That's where he needs to improve obviously.

I'd like to see Rizzo take Schwarber with him in the offseason and for those two to work out with Votto like Rizzo did prior to 2014. Votto clearly made a big difference for Rizzo and I think he could help Schwarber too.
 

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Think your quote from McLeod says it all. They thought he was a 15 HR hitter and he hit 33(if you include AAA) which should tell you why Sahadev Sharma thinks it would be selling high. Can Happ lower his K rate? Certainly. But that's isn't really going to make him all that more valuable. And any team acquiring him will assume like an young player those numbers come down. As for why you deal him, do you really think there's more power in his bat? If the answer is no then that's selling high. Outside of waiting for him to be an all-star player(if he even gets there) his value isn't going much higher.
You conveniently ignored "high average". He hasn't made that yet. Not even close.

As for Schwarber, he hit 30 HRs in a year where he hit .211. Without stretching much it's not difficult to see him routinely be a 40+ HR guy. His peak years may be 50+. What gets lost in Schwarber's struggle was what he did in the minors. For reference here Happ was a .275/.362/.472 hitter in the minors. So, seeing him hit .253/.328/.514... there's a little room to grow on what you'd expect him to be but not a ton. Schwarber on the other hand hit .334/.432/.619 in the minors. He was a complete hitter in the minors. He hasn't been that so far in the majors. I'll leave the "why" to other people but if you hit .330 in any league you're a great hitter. Schwarber in the majors hasn't even approached good. And the other thing is he wasn't even a big K threat in the minors. He struck out 141 times in 665 PAs or a 21.2% k rate. So clearly there is a vast difference between the player Schwarber was in the minors and what he has been in the majors. Does he get better? Who knows but you can see sparks of what he can be. He's been a monster in playoff baseball where you see the best of the best. Just needs to do that more consistently.
He's been a monster in playoff baseball? 2 errors on one play? He was a monster in this year's playoffs? Do you believe in the firebreathing dragon, too?

As for why Happ is more tradable, think that is pretty obvious. You have both him and Baez at 2B. I've made the case as to why you would deal Baez but to put it bluntly if Happ has anywhere near the value Baez does trade wise I'd probably deal Happ first because however I feel about Baez it's clear you can't just find people who have his defense. As for CF for Happ, he's not amazing there and when he did play there they moved him as soon as was feasible. That leaves LF which is Schwarber vs Happ. That's a case of selling low on Schwarber or selling at near the peak for Happ.
You're selling MVP ceiling potential for Schwarber. I don't see it. Happ is a switch hitter. Happ is not a defensive liability. Happ is a Zobrist-type player. I'd trade Almora before I traded Happ.
 

Parade_Rain

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The difference between Happ and Schwarber is attitude. Happ is guy willing to learn and tries hard. Schwarber is a willful and hell-bound to do it his way. He is going to pull the ball no matter where it is into a shift. 6" off the plate? No problem for Schwarber cause his ego wont let him do anything but pull, He does hit HRs to left field but only when he swings late. Schwarber is also toast against hard throwers and left handers, Happ doesnt have that problem
I think you're wrong here. Schwarber hits plenty of balls into LC gap and over LC fence.

Edit: CSF77 beat me to it. He's a spray hitter.
 

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I mean theo said he was open to working to get better. I wouldn't consider someone with that attitude head strong or egotistical . I think his issues are less to do with attitude and more to do with the way teams pitch him. Rizzo had a number of the same issues coming up. I suppose you're viewing that as him being hard headed but my view is more he can't do much else presently with it. That's where he needs to improve obviously.

I'd like to see Rizzo take Schwarber with him in the offseason and for those two to work out with Votto like Rizzo did prior to 2014. Votto clearly made a big difference for Rizzo and I think he could help Schwarber too.
Great would love to see that also. If Schwarber had any sense he would drive every mid-outside pitch to left field until the pitchers changed they way they pitched him. But no, he is hell-bound on driving everything. That's an ego issue
 

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I think you're wrong here. Schwarber hits plenty of balls into LC gap and over LC fence.

Edit: CSF77 beat me to it. He's a spray hitter.
Yes, he did but only when he swung late. Never saw him purposely drive a ball to left field
 

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If both Happ and Schwarber were available in a draft and it's my turn I'm taking Happ
 

beckdawg

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You conveniently ignored "high average". He hasn't made that yet. Not even close.

Wasn't ignoring anything. I suggested his K rate would improve. By definition that implies his batting average also improves. But is Happ going to hit .300? Doubtful because the highest he ever hit in the minors was .296 in A+ when he had an unsustainable .381 BABIP. Happ is probably a .270-.280 hitter which sure is an improvement over the .253 he hit this year but most of that is because of strike outs. If you cut roughly 10% off his k rate this year he'd be in that .270 range.

He's been a monster in playoff baseball? 2 errors on one play? He was a monster in this year's playoffs? Do you believe in the firebreathing dragon, too?

Schwarber is a career .311/.408/.623 hitter with 6 HRs over 71 PAs in the playoffs but I'm the one ignoring stuff.

You're selling MVP ceiling potential for Schwarber. I don't see it. Happ is a switch hitter. Happ is not a defensive liability. Happ is a Zobrist-type player. I'd trade Almora before I traded Happ.

Frankly I don't care if you see it. The cubs do. Theo literally compared him to Rizzo who is you guessed it an MVP candidate year in and year out. If you don't buy it then fine but the reality of the situation is the cubs almost certainly aren't trading Schwarber given the comments they've made on him. At some point you're going to have to square that in your mind.
 

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Wasn't ignoring anything. I suggested his K rate would improve. By definition that implies his batting average also improves. But is Happ going to hit .300? Doubtful because the highest he ever hit in the minors was .296 in A+ when he had an unsustainable .381 BABIP. Happ is probably a .270-.280 hitter which sure is an improvement over the .253 he hit this year but most of that is because of strike outs. If you cut roughly 10% off his k rate this year he'd be in that .270 range.



Schwarber is a career .311/.408/.623 hitter with 6 HRs over 71 PAs in the playoffs but I'm the one ignoring stuff.



Frankly I don't care if you see it. The cubs do. Theo literally compared him to Rizzo who is you guessed it an MVP candidate year in and year out. If you don't buy it then fine but the reality of the situation is the cubs almost certainly aren't trading Schwarber given the comments they've made on him. At some point you're going to have to square that in your mind.
Dumb. It's squared in my mind. I prefer keeping Happ. If the Cubs keep Schwarber I will still be a Cubs fan.
 

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