Who still thinks CHI should have traded Deng & Noah & a pick for Carmelo Anthony?

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Fair enough, I used poor phrasing in some of that previous post. And you are right, I would have a hard time saying no to that Deng and Noah for Anthony deal if I knew we will not get Dwight Howard. In fact, I would probably do it if that was the case (probably). I guess you win.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

1. Lets see the list of "lots" of players.

2. Did you really just compare Carmelo Anthony to Kevin Martin?

I would never compare Anthony to Martin. I was just talking about the concept that you can be a very good scorer and be an overall terrible player in every other regard. Anthony is a better defender and is a very good rebounder than Martin.

 

[FirstTimer]

Fair enough, I used poor phrasing in some of that previous post. And you are right, I would have a hard time saying no to that Deng and Noah for Anthony deal if I knew we will not get Dwight Howard. In fact, I would probably do it if that was the case (probably). I guess you win.

Great. Only took you a year to come around.

I would never compare Anthony to Martin. I was just talking about the concept that you can be a very good scorer and be an overall terrible player in every other regard. Anthony is a better defender and is a very good rebounder than Martin.

Ok, so what's the point of even bringing up Kevin Martin, who BTW, has never averaged anywhere near 30PPG.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Ok, so what's the point of even bringing up Kevin Martin, who BTW, has never averaged anywhere near 30PPG.

My point was that if he wasn't such a terrible player in every other regard to scoring, he would have been on the floor many more minutes to get very close to that 30 point per-game mark. He probably would have given up near that much from the man he was guarding on most nights.

 

[FirstTimer]

My point was that if he wasn't such a terrible player in every other regard to scoring, he would have been on the floor many more minutes to get very close to that 30 point per-game mark. He probably would have given up near that much from the man he was guarding on most nights.

Even with Kevin Martin playing 38MPG he didn't even average 25PPG.

But the above is why I hate people who use Per36 etc to compare players.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Even with Kevin Martin playing 38MPG he didn't even average 25PPG.

But the above is why I hate people who use Per36 etc to compare players.

Last season, if Martin averaged 40 minutes, he would have averaged 28.8 points per-game, but you are right that PER36 is a very flawed stat. There are players like Ben Gordon and J.R. Smith who come in and chuck up shots for 5 minutes and make them all because the defense cannot account for them after only playing about 20 total minutes. If they play for 36 minutes, their PER36 would diminish dramatically.

Same thing with old players. Their PER36 would diminish dramatically if they were to play 38 total minutes every night.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Just when things couldn't get any worse...

No, it really is what you said in the frame I just quoted. You allowed that even if Carmelo is the 2nd best scorer in the entire NBA, he still wouldn't be an elite player. So, the only way for Carmelo to be considered an elite player is to be the best scorer in the entire NBA, otherwise he is interchangeable with Kevin Martin.

Good work.

No, that isn't what I said at all. I said that elite is a subjective word (that is all I ever said in this thread), and implied that, theoretically, even the best scorer in the league can also be the worst defender and worst all-around player at everything else.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Whether or not Anthony is "elite" depends on how you define the word. Anthony doesn't fall within a certain group of players who happen to be at the top of the league right now, but he is a borderline top 10 player and a top 2, 3, or 4 scorer in the NBA. So it really all depends on point of view.

In this post I:

(a) implied that "elite" is a subjective word and people define it in varying ways. It is a label, and when you hand out labels, it gets very if-y.

(b) explained the point of view of someone who might believe Anthony is not elite by saying, "Anthony doesn't fall within a certain group of players who happen to be at the top of the league right now,"

and (c) explained the point of view of someone who might believe Anthony is elite by saying, "but he is a borderline top 10 player and a top 2, 3, or 4 scorer in the NBA."

 

[FirstTimer]

Last season, if Martin averaged 40 minutes, he would have averaged 28.8 points per-game

If Grandma had nuts she'd be grandpa.

Martin also would have scored a ridiculously ineffcient 28.8PPG because he shoots in the low 40's percentage wise.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If Grandma had nuts she'd be grandpa.

Martin also would have scored a ridiculously ineffcient 28.8PPG because he shoots in the low 40's percentage wise.

Okay, cool. Kevin Martin was the best example of a player today I could think of that represents a great scorer who is terrible at basically everything else. And the guy shoots nearly 40% from three-point range, and shoots free throws, too. So it isn't as ineffective as a guy taking high-percentage shots close to the rim.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

(b) is true and (c) is true. And you are completely ignoring (a) altogether.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I said:

Whether or not Anthony is "elite" depends on how you define the word. Anthony doesn't fall within a certain group of players who happen to be at the top of the league right now, but he is a borderline top 10 player and a top 2, 3, or 4 scorer in the NBA. So it really all depends on point of view.

To which you responded:

So, the top 2 scorer in the NBA is not an elite player. Got it.

That's just to clarify.

I have a very loose definition of what I define as "elite". I know James, Wade, and Howard are the three best players in the NBA. They are elite in every sense of the word. I said earlier that Anthony was probably more like the best of the non-elite than he is the worst of the elite. And I defended that broad stance by sharing the concept that a great scorer can theoretically be terrible at everything else (i.e. Kevin Martin). Anthony is obviously not terrible at everything else. I just don't know if that means a person would be idiotic to not have 'Melo as an elite player considering he has a lot of flaws in his game other than scoring, and that there are a number of players who are clearly better than 'Melo is.

 

[FirstTimer]

Okay, cool. Kevin Martin was the best example of a player today I could think of that represents a great scorer who is terrible at basically everything else. And the guy shoots nearly 40% from three-point range, and shoots free throws, too. So it isn't as ineffective as a guy taking high-percentage shots close to the rim.

Martin is also an undersized 2 guard and not at all a similar player to Anthony size, skill, or style wise so comapring the two makes no sense

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

The NBA "elite" to me is every player that has a valid case for being the best player on the planet- to start out. It probably would stretch out a little bit further than that to players who really don't have a valid case at being the '#1 guy right now' but are still fantastic and look as though they can lead a team to a championship in their own right. That secondary list, to me, includes CP3, Durant, Rose, Bryant, Nowitzki, and D-Will. Anthony probably could lead a team to a championship, but I am not sure how likely a player as limited as he is (compared to all of the aforementioned players) would be to do that. That is why I originally referred to him as "borderline elite."

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Martin is also an undersized 2 guard and not at all a similar player to Anthony size, skill, or style wise so comapring the two makes no sense

My intent wasn't to compare Anthony and Martin. It was merely to give an example of a player who is a great scorer who is obviously not in the elite category.

 

[FirstTimer]

My intent wasn't to compare Anthony and Martin. It was merely to give an example of a player who is a great scorer who is obviously not in the elite category.

I wouldn't label Martin as a great scorer at all. He's a an ineffcient shooter who averages in the mid to low 20's PPG wise.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I wouldn't label Martin as a great scorer at all. He's a an ineffcient shooter who averages in the mid to low 20's PPG wise.

He definitely isn't the greatest scorer at all, but to call him inefficient is a little unfair, don't you think?

He takes 8 free throws per-game and makes almost 90% of them.

He averages almost 6 three-point attempts per-game and makes almost 40% of them.

He averages about 45% shooting about 9 or 10 two-pointers per-game. That is not that good, but pretty much the percentage of what you could expect from a typical SG.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Would you say that Martin is the second best scorer in the entire NBA? If not, then your entire farcical comparison is even more ridiculous. Its like you are talking to yourself.

No... that is not the point. I responded to your post saying that it was laughable that I consider Anthony to be non-elite because he is a top 2, 3, or 4 scorer. That is why I brought up the example of Martin to lay out the possibility that it is possible to have a great scorer in the game who is not an elite player.

 

[FirstTimer]

He definitely isn't the greatest scorer at all, but to call him inefficient is a little unfair, don't you think?

No.


Kevin Martin's last 3 seasons of FG%:
42
41.7
43.6

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

???????

This makes even less sense. Why bring up Martin in the first place if you don't consider him to be a top 2, 3, or 4 scorer in the NBA?

Because he is a low top 10 scorer in my opinion. It is obvious that the guy is a great scorer who isn't a great overall player. That's why I brought it up.