Why is baseball discussion revolve around acronyms?

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Like made up zones and such...i know.

Yea, zones that are on the baseball field are definitely made up

The only SS I'd really say is worse than Jeter is Betancourt.

 

[Captain Iago]

Eh, out of all the "new age" stats, OPS is kind of a touchy subject with the SABR community. It treats OBP and SLG as equal-opportunity contributors, which is hardly what all the research (at least the stuff I'm caught up on) indicates: some studies have pegged OBP as being almost four-times as important as SLG.

If you've got your head firmly around OPS, I suggest a move to OPS+. It's still OPS, only adjusted for league and park effects. League average is always 100, 120 is 20 percent above average (in OPS+ points, not OPS straight up) and so on. It's really cool because while it still contains the vagaries of mixing OBP and OPS, it is adjusted for league and park, meaning it is applicable to all players in all eras.

Now we're talkin my kind of math.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Since we're talking saber... If UZR isn't the best stat, what is? Defensively, of course.

 

[Got teeth? Keith doesn't.]

Since we're talking saber... If UZR isn't the best stat, what is? Defensively, of course.

There's a bunch of solid defensive stats, which is why you should use all of them together instead of just one.

 

[DewsSox79]

Yea, zones that are on the baseball field are definitely made up

The only SS I'd really say is worse than Jeter is Betancourt.

actually if you read they are.

 

[Captain Obvious]

There's a bunch of solid defensive stats, which is why you should use all of them together instead of just one.

Even if all of them point to the same thing, the human eye is better though, right?

 

[Jntg4]

Even if all of them point to the same thing, the human eye is better though, right?

Soriano is not a good defender if that is what you are referring to.

 

[X]

you have a complex.

anyway, the comment is geared tords all of us, not just you. it is a compliment to him, not a diss to you. we all fall guilty of my post. lets be honest.

For some reason, "Tords" made me literally laugh out loud.

That being said...There are SOOO many more baseball games played than in any other sport...that the White Sox advanced scouts need sabermetrics in order to tell them how to tell the coach to shift the infield when the Royals back-up catcher makes his 9th plate appearance in the 3rd month of the season with runners on 2nd and 3rd, two outs, on the same day Twins and Tigers lost....

.....among other scenarios.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Soriano is not a good defender if that is what you are referring to.

That's just it... you are basing it off of only what you saw... or what you think you saw.

 

[Jntg4]

That's just it... you are basing it off of only what you saw... or what you think you saw.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Seriously? Post something of value. I'm trying to understand your POV on the matter.

 

[Jntg4]

Seriously? Post something of value. I'm trying to understand your POV on the matter.

You can't possibly think Soriano's defense is good. UZR may say so, but that is a formula that has flaws just like an eye. UZR is unreliable when used alone.

 

[Captain Obvious]

You can't possibly think Soriano's defense is good. UZR may say so, but that is a formula that has flaws just like an eye. UZR is unreliable when used alone.

Not true. If you use a one year sample size of UZR it will more than likely be inaccurate. However, if you use 3 years worth, it becomes reliable.

You obviously don't remember, so allow me to refresh your mind...

rARM, which is number of outfield arms runs saved: 5 years: 34(next is Willingham with 16) 4 years: 24(Willingham again in 2nd with 12) 3 years: 7(2nd to only Crawford and Ibanez who have 8). Pretty freakin' great.

rPM, which is plus or minus the number of runs saved: 3 years: - 10. Which may seem bad, but it's 4th best. 4 years: -11(again 4th). 5 years: 0(3rd best, behind Holliday and Carl.) While these numbers aren't great, they aren't bad. Which is the point I'm trying to get across to you.

DRS, or defensive runs saved. Over 5 years, he is 2nd to only Crawford. 4 years, 3rd to Holliday and Crawford. Same for 3 years.

RZR, revised zone rating, he is in the middle of the pack for each of the 3 year increments I am using.

TZL, total zone with location, is basically another form of UZR. 5 years: Soriano was great with a 23.6 TZL, 2nd to only Mr. Crawford. 4 years: 3rd to Carl and Holliday, with a 2.3, which is still considered average. 3 years: -2.6, which is still average, but it was good enough for 2nd.

TZ, total zone without location has Soriano in the top 3 year each time, too.

This, coupled with high UZR totals is what I have based my opinion on. I don't see how the human eye can be right and all these defensive stats can be wrong.

 

[Jntg4]

Not true. If you use a one year sample size of UZR it will more than likely be inaccurate. However, if you use 3 years worth, it becomes reliable.

You obviously don't remember, so allow me to refresh your mind...

rARM, which is number of outfield arms runs saved: 5 years: 34(next is Willingham with 16) 4 years: 24(Willingham again in 2nd with 12) 3 years: 7(2nd to only Crawford and Ibanez who have 8). Pretty freakin' great.

rPM, which is plus or minus the number of runs saved: 3 years: - 10. Which may seem bad, but it's 4th best. 4 years: -11(again 4th). 5 years: 0(3rd best, behind Holliday and Carl.) While these numbers aren't great, they aren't bad. Which is the point I'm trying to get across to you.

DRS, or defensive runs saved. Over 5 years, he is 2nd to only Crawford. 4 years, 3rd to Holliday and Crawford. Same for 3 years.

RZR, revised zone rating, he is in the middle of the pack for each of the 3 year increments I am using.

TZL, total zone with location, is basically another form of UZR. 5 years: Soriano was great with a 23.6 TZL, 2nd to only Mr. Crawford. 4 years: 3rd to Carl and Holliday, with a 2.3, which is still considered average. 3 years: -2.6, which is still average, but it was good enough for 2nd.

TZ, total zone without location has Soriano in the top 3 year each time, too.

This, coupled with high UZR totals is what I have based my opinion on. I don't see how the human eye can be right and all these defensive stats can be wrong.

Those aren't what I'd call stats, they are ranking formulas.

Holliday is a bad defender too.

I'm not arguing again.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Those aren't what I'd call stats, they are ranking formulas.

Holliday is a bad defender too.

I'm not arguing again.

It doesn't matter what you consider stats, but for the sake of discussion, what do you consider stats? If you can't use these with UZR, what can you use UZR with?

You're basing Holliday off of that one dropped ball he had in the playoffs, aren't you?

 

[Jntg4]

It doesn't matter what you consider stats, but for the sake of discussion, what do you consider stats? If you can't use these with UZR, what can you use UZR with?

You're basing Holliday off of that one dropped ball he had in the playoffs, aren't you?

No, he simply isn't a good defender.

And I said I'm not going to argue, so I'm not going to list more stats to argue over.

 

[Captain Obvious]

No, he simply isn't a good defender.

And I said I'm not going to argue, so I'm not going to list more stats to argue over.

It's not arguing, it's discussing. How can you say he simply isn't a good defender with nothing to back it up? Is that your defense mechanism? When you're wrong, you say you're not going to argue?

 

[Jntg4]

It's not arguing, it's discussing. How can you say he simply isn't a good defender with nothing to back it up? Is that your defense mechanism? When you're wrong, you say you're not going to argue?

No, I'm trying not to end up with another closed thread.

It may just be his rep, but I don't see good defense when I see him. He isn't as bad as everyone thinks, but he isn't good either.

I'm not against UZR, but there are too many factors excluded from that formula and too many in-game occurrences that are not displayed accurately in that formula.

I'm not arguing with his arm though.

 

[Captain Obvious]

No, I'm trying not to end up with another closed thread.

It may just be his rep, but I don't see good defense when I see him. He isn't as bad as everyone thinks, but he isn't good either.

I'm not against UZR, but there are too many factors excluded from that formula and too many in-game occurrences that are not displayed accurately in that formula.

I'm not arguing with his arm though.

Rush asked about stats... We're talking about stats.

When you watch him... that gives your argument no credit.

That's the point of UZR, though... those weird in game occurrences don't really matter. That's where people go so wrong. They think that those weird occasions make a defender. They don't.

 

[poodski]

All left fielders are bad fielders. Except for Crawford.