Why WAR sucks

[KBisBack!]

Was looking at stats and came across this beauty and a perfect example of how useless some of these made up stats are .

There are two players who play the same position that have the same exact WAR.

Let's compare their stats though.

Player A - 387 AB .235 BA .328 OBP .432 SLG 14 HR 58 RBI 1.8 WAR

Player B - 382 AB .325 BA .372 OBP .476 SLG 10 HR 79 RBI 1.8 WAR

Somehow this 'advanced, cutting edge' stat is supposed to tell me that each player has been equally productive?

Not a chance.

 

[The Bandit]

Was looking at stats and came across this beauty and a perfect example of how useless some of these made up stats are .

There are two players who play the same position that have the same exact WAR.

Let's compare their stats though.

Player A - 387 AB .235 BA .328 OBP .432 SLG 14 HR 58 RBI 1.8 WAR

Player B - 382 AB .325 BA .372 OBP .476 SLG 10 HR 79 RBI 1.8 WAR

Somehow this 'advanced, cutting edge' stat is supposed to tell me that each player has been equally productive?

Not a chance.

It's a stat, not a be all end all. Same as any other stat.

 

[patg006]

It's a stat, not a be all end all. Same as any other stat.

Pretty much what it should be--but some people take it further which is where I disagree.....

WAR is a cheap way to tell me players arent as good as the stats say because they take 1 less pitch per AB, it will tell me Bronson Arroyo pitched a bad game when he went 8 strong giving up 2 hits, handful of walks and 2 runs because his FIP is 5.6.

I take things at face value, if a player swings and puts the first pitch of his at bat in left center for a double--its a success, I dont give a shit how you want to look at that. WAR relies way too heavily on past play as their mainstay, essentially saying players cant change or get better. If a pitcher takes 110 pitches to get through 8 innings while only giving up 4 hits and 1 run and his team is in a position to win, that matters to me more than his individual pitching defensive stat.

 

[JosMin]

Well, considering that there are multiple formulas used to calculate WAR depending on what source you're using (BR, Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus, etc) and the fact that the formula between pitchers and position players are completely different, this is an empty argument until we have context. They're weighted differently and calculated differently, so each source doesn't have the same weight when you compare them across the board.

Who are these two players? What season is this from? What WAR formula was used?

 

[nwfisch]

[video=youtube;y2NDh6I2H3E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2NDh6I2H3E[/video]

 

[KBisBack!]

and the fact that the formula between pitchers and position players are completely different, this is an empty argument until we have context. They're weighted differently and calculated differently, so each source doesn't have the same weight when you compare them across the board.

If you had read the initial post you would have known that the players play the same position so there can't be a different calculation or weighted differently.

Who are these two players? What season is this from? What WAR formula was used?

The player names are irrelevant.

The stats are from this year before today's game.

The 1.8 WAR is from Baseball Reference.

Fangraphs has player A at 1.6 and player B at 2.0

Again no way there is less than a half game difference between these two players.

One of the players is even getting mentioned as a MVP candidate.

That stat is useless.

 

[The Bandit]

That stat is useless.

You just lost any standing in this argument. You can say every single stat is useless. It doesn't prove that the stat is useless. It's one example.

 

[KBisBack!]

You just lost any standing in this argument.

Not so much.

As usual, you have provided nothing of substance to a discussion.

 

[JosMin]

If you had read the initial post you would have known that the players play the same position so there can't be a different calculation or weighted differently.



The player names are irrelevant.

The stats are from this year before today's game.

The 1.8 WAR is from Baseball Reference.

Fangraphs has player A at 1.6 and player B at 2.0

Again no way there is less than a half game difference between these two players.

One of the players is even getting mentioned as a MVP candidate.

That stat is useless.

Thanks for answering my questions. Good thing I fucked Carmen San Diego a few times and was able to figure out you're comparing the stats of Allen Craig and Anthony Rizzo. Let's go ahead and just assume this was another slick attempt for you to talk shit about a Cubs player.

 

[The Bandit]

Not so much.

As usual, you have provided nothing of substance to a discussion.

You're basing an entire argument about the usefulness of a stat on one example, as usual you have provided nothing of substance to the discussion.

 

[KBisBack!]

Let's go ahead and just assume this was another slick attempt for you to talk shit about a Cubs player.

Wrong again as usual.

If I was interested in talking shit about a Cubs player I could easily have started a thread titled Why Anthony Rizzo sucks. There is plenty of factual information to support that thread.

But I didn't and deliberately left the players names out and even went so far as to stat that the names of the players were irrelevant when you asked who the players were.

I happened to be looking at Rizzo's still sub par stats and noticed he had the same WAR as Craig.

I left the players names out so maybe for a change the Troll Patrol would actually focus on the facts.

My mistake for giving you guys too much credit.

 

[daddies3angels]

Reason Rizzo WAR is good as Craig is cause of DEF BUT i hate WAR cause DEF is horrible calculated which WAR use 50% of DEF in there calculations. THere fore i agree WAR is a horrible stat

 

[JosMin]

Wrong again as usual.

If I was interested in talking shit about a Cubs player I could easily have started a thread titled Why Anthony Rizzo sucks. There is plenty of factual information to support that thread.

But I didn't and deliberately left the players names out and even went so far as to stat that the names of the players were irrelevant when you asked who the players were.

I happened to be looking at Rizzo's still sub par stats and noticed he had the same WAR as Craig.

I left the players names out so maybe for a change the Troll Patrol would actually focus on the facts.

My mistake for giving you guys too much credit.

Well considering that I asked questions in order to potentially come to a conclusion as to why you wanted to waste your own time in making yet another sterling contribution to the board, I figured I'd do myself a solid and figure out who you were talking about and where the source was coming from. As I said, WAR is calculated differently from different sources, so that does matter. Instead of blatantly trying to start an argument, why not read up on how Baseball Reference calculates their WAR so maybe you could understand why Rizzo's WAR is equal to Allen Craig's? Surely it's more important to comprehend something new, as opposed to spend your free time arguing with complete strangers because you want to throw a tantrum about the Cubs.

 

[nwfisch]

Well considering that I asked questions in order to potentially come to a conclusion as to why you wanted to waste your own time in making yet another sterling contribution to the board, I figured I'd do myself a solid and figure out who you were talking about and where the source was coming from. As I said, WAR is calculated differently from different sources, so that does matter. Instead of blatantly trying to start an argument, why not read up on how Baseball Reference calculates their WAR so maybe you could understand why Rizzo's WAR is equal to Allen Craig's? Surely it's more important to comprehend something new, as opposed to spend your free time arguing with complete strangers because you want to throw a tantrum about the Cubs.

The troll patrol needs to quiet down. <3. :elephant:

 

[KBisBack!]

Surely it's more important to comprehend something new, as opposed to spend your free time arguing with complete strangers because you want to throw a tantrum about the Cubs.

I comprehend that the stat is severely flawed to the point of being useless.

Once again in clear and simple English that perhaps maybe even someone clearly as challenged as you are can understand since you completely missed it the first time.

This

has

nothing

to

do

with

the

Cubs

 

[JosMin]

I comprehend that the stat is severely flawed to the point of being useless.

Once again in clear and simple English that perhaps maybe even someone clearly as challenged as you are can understand since you completely missed it the first time.

This

has

nothing

to

do

with

the

Cubs

How is a stat that equally weights defense and offense useless? Allen Craig is a terrible defensive first baseman, that's the main reason why his WAR is so low. The other reason is because his walk total is ridiculously low compared to Rizzo's. Craig has only had 9 more opportunities on base than Rizzo, yet his batting average is almost 100 points higher. Opportunities on base play a big role in calculating the offensive aspect of WAR.

Too bad you refuse to educate yourself on how it's calculated so you can have an understanding on why their totals are the same. I'm sure it's way more fun to you to complain, though.

 

[Parade_Rain]

This is actually a good thread start with excellent potential.

 

[JosMin]

This is actually a good thread start with excellent potential.

Good luck with that happening.

 

[KBisBack!]

This is actually a good thread start with excellent potential.

Until the Troll Patrol showed up and shit all over it.

How is a stat that equally weights defense and offense useless? Allen Craig is a terrible defensive first baseman, that's the main reason why his WAR is so low.

Because at the position of 1B, generally regarded as the least important defensive position on the field, defense is not equal to offense.

In fact probably the ONLY position that should have defense weighted equally to offense in baseball is Catcher.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

[video=youtube;y2NDh6I2H3E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2NDh6I2H3E[/video]

Do you mean to tell me that in all of youtube, you couldn't have found a single video containing that song that would have been more appropriate in a discussion about a baseball statistic other than one with soldiers coming back from war splashed in it?