World Cup?

[Houston]

I want the president of Croatia to be my president.

 

[remydat]

Neymar is a fucking disgrace to the game. Actually most of South America played the game like a bunch of cunts. FIFA needs to start assessing yellow cards after the match for these dives. Clean their act up right away.

Which has nothing to do with his talent. He is easily currently the 3rd best player in the world. Also a little perspective.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-wor...at-world-cup-manchester-uniteds-jose-mourinho

http://www.espn.com/soccer/paris-sa...me-in-frances-win-over-belgium-thomas-meunier

It is not just Neymar or South America. England did it to the point you had Premier league coaches pointing it out. And Mbappe did it to the point his teammate at PSG who plays for Belgium called him out. At least for Mbappe, he actually got a yellow card for it. Not to mention Antoinne Griezman just got a free kick that led to the opening goal because of a dive.

Neymar just gets more shit for it because he is a polarizing figure and his are even more exaggerated but not limited to South America.

 

[dweebs19]

I agree. Many players do it. It's actually pretty normal. Our coach in high school instructed us to milk slight touches as well. So this is something that's taught at a young age. Reason why Neymar gets flack is because he just exaggerates it. If he didn't exaggerate it, I don't think he would be getting lots of flack for it. I also do feel bad for him because I think his stock took a huge dive this world cup. Before the tournament, there were lots of rumors about him going to Madrid. After the tournament, Madrid now says they're not interested and are chasing after Hazard and Mbappe instead.

 

[bearmick]

Thought the better team lost today in part due to some poor decisions by the referee particularly the penalty and AG falling over himself but being awarded a free kick that led to the OG.

At the end of the day though, all that matters is you win and France won. There is something to be said about taking the cup without playing your best.

It was a penalty. Can't have your armed raised and manipulating a ball in the box, even accidentally. If his arms were down and it was kicked into his arm, you'll get away with that sometimes, but not with your arms up like that.

Croatia had better possession but France are a different class to them in the final third. More talent up front.

 

[bearmick]

I'm not saying this because I'm biased, but I think that handball was deliberate.

It didn't have to be. Any time your arms are raised like that, you're going to get a penalty if you manipulate the ball (as opposed to simply letting it touch you). That's why players tend to keep their arms down at their sides when defending set pieces. That yesterday is a penalty every time.

 

[bearmick]

Which has nothing to do with his talent. He is easily currently the 3rd best player in the world.

That's very debatable.

 

[remydat]

It was a penalty. Can't have your armed raised and manipulating a ball in the box, even accidentally. If his arms were down and it was kicked into his arm, you'll get away with that sometimes, but not with your arms up like that.

Croatia had better possession but France are a different class to them in the final third. More talent up front.

They weren't and they aren't. It isn't about possession, it's about what you do with the possession, and France had and have more quality than Croatia, especially in the final third.

It is virtually impossible in real time and given the distance between the two of them for it to be deliberate so with all due respect, I will side with the overwhelming response from players, other referees, and pundits who say it is not a penalty many of which I already linked. Again the rule is clear that it has to deliberate. Accidental is not deliberate.

As for whether Croatia were the better team. Again, this is soccer. One can outplay another team and still lose because goals are hard to come by. Croatia not only dominated possession, they created a ton of chances based on any statistical measure. France I agree has more quality in the final third but that is the final third. That is not the whole team. Croatia was the better overall team. France had the better finishers and thus were more efficient in their finishing.

Simple hypothetically, if a team creates 30 chances and the striker misses them all, is that team better than another team that created 5 chances but the striker converted 2 into goals? That is the fundamental difference in our argument I believe.

 

[remydat]

It was a penalty. Can't have your armed raised and manipulating a ball in the box, even accidentally. If his arms were down and it was kicked into his arm, you'll get away with that sometimes, but not with your arms up like that.

Croatia had better possession but France are a different class to them in the final third. More talent up front.

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any
of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)

https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/81/42/36/lawsofthegame_2011_12_en.pdf

See the bold. It is supposed to be deliberate hence why the vast majority of people involved in the sport says it was not a penalty. You will get called if your hands are up above your head or away from your arms and their is distance between you and the player. However, Perisic's arms were coming down and there simply is not enough distance for him to have been able to manipulate his arms as a result of allegedly seeing the ball.

He jumped up which caused his arms to go up and then he was bring them back down. Further, the original call was no penalty and VAR says it is suppose to be clear and obvious to overturn. This was not clear and obvious as again the vast majority of people in the sport that have commented disagreed. Further, it wasn't clear and obviously a mistake from the ref because he left the video booth and then went back to look at it again so it is obvious he was not 100% convinced.

 

[remydat]

I agree. Many players do it. It's actually pretty normal. Our coach in high school instructed us to milk slight touches as well. So this is something that's taught at a young age. Reason why Neymar gets flack is because he just exaggerates it. If he didn't exaggerate it, I don't think he would be getting lots of flack for it. I also do feel bad for him because I think his stock took a huge dive this world cup. Before the tournament, there were lots of rumors about him going to Madrid. After the tournament, Madrid now says they're not interested and are chasing after Hazard and Mbappe instead.

Neymar gets the flack he deserves IMO as his exaggeration is ridiculous. Just think it has **** all to do with his skill or talent. It is one thing to say his diving his ridiculous. Quite another to consciously or subconsciously try to downgrade him because of it. Even the guys over at ESPN FC which were very critical of his diving and play this world cup still concede he is the 3rd best player in the world.

Not sure who would even be in the debate over him. Certainly not Mbappe who Neymar overshadowed at PSG. Certainly not Pogba who has been disappointing at United. Salah had a great year at Liverpool but hasn't performed like that in any season prior. Hazard has been inconsistent at Chelsea and so has De Bruyne at City. In my view the gap between Ronaldo/Messi and Neymar is much smaller than the gap between Neymar and whoever else people think should be in the conversation. Now maybe after this WC some of those other contenders can close that gap but Neymar is still the clear No 3 to me and most people I have seen having this discussion.

 

[remydat]

That's very debatable.

You can debate anything but the clear consensus again from the pundits is that he is. Most are saying he had a bad tournament and yet he still created more chances in 5 games than everyone else in the tournament.

https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/1018180431546601472

Edit, sorry just got the updated list. Trippier ended up surpassing Neymar and De Bruyne tied him. Granted they both played 2 more games than Neymar. But everyone says his tournament was terrible yet he essentially created the most chances per game coming off of a broken foot while also being the most fouled player. Brazil's finishing was just subpar particularly Jesus who is the first striker to not have scored in a WC despite all those starts. And Coutinho got worn down trying to play midfield and missed a few chances particularly the one against Belgium that was an absolute gift from Neymar and pretty much cost Brazil the tie. I still don't know how you mishit this absolute sitter so badly.

[video=youtube;1DcMo4GDp5c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DcMo4GDp5c[/video]

 

[bearmick]

I don't think he had a terrible tournament, I just don't think it's a hands down sure thing to say he's definitely the third best player in the world right now.

Re: the penalty. Not sure who all the people are who make up "the vast majority" as I haven't read an extensive amount of media reaction to the game, but in any league at any level that gets called most of the time. Intentional or not, ball comes off and is manipulated by a semi-raised arm in the box.

 

[bamainatlanta]

I don't think he had a terrible tournament, I just don't think it's a hands down sure thing to say he's definitely the third best player in the world right now.

Re: the penalty. Not sure who all the people are who make up "the vast majority" as I haven't read an extensive amount of media reaction to the game, but in any league at any level that gets called most of the time. Intentional or not, ball comes off and is manipulated by a semi-raised arm in the box.

Pique gave up a penalty vs Russia becuase his hand was raised from his body. Unfortunately, it seemed like an easy call to make.

 

[dweebs19]

Pique gave up a penalty vs Russia becuase his hand was raised from his body. Unfortunately, it seemed like an easy call to make.

Seriously, if yesterday's was not a penalty, then Pique's shouldn't have been a penalty but no pundits made a big deal about that. I guess cause it wasn't in a final. If we're going by intent. You can't tell me Pique had intent for a handball when his head was turned the other way

[video=youtube;6Hn7-T8Sjc0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hn7-T8Sjc0[/video]

 

[remydat]

I don't think he had a terrible tournament, I just don't think it's a hands down sure thing to say he's definitely the third best player in the world right now.

Re: the penalty. Not sure who all the people are who make up "the vast majority" as I haven't read an extensive amount of media reaction to the game, but in any league at any level that gets called most of the time. Intentional or not, ball comes off and is manipulated by a semi-raised arm in the box.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=24106748

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...all-world-reacted-to-frances-win-over-croatia

Not really read any analysis that concludes it is a clear penalty. Generally you give a penalty if your hands are raised. His hands were coming down. And again, the issue here is VAR is suppose to be used when it is clear and obvious. The ref is clearly no sure about whether it is a penalty or not so his original call should have stood.

If you want to offer up someone else that you think is better than Neymar then let me know. Otherwise, the consensus once again is that he is the third best player. Generally speaking when these things are discussed, it's Messi/Ronaldo with Neymar third and then everyone else. There is not a single player I can think of that is even close to those three. From time to time someone will have a good season and so the question will be asked if they are better than Neymar and pretty much the conclusion is always no they are not. It happened with Salah this year due to his outstanding year at Liverpool. If he can keep that up then maybe he can supplant Neymar.

 

[remydat]

Seriously, if yesterday's was not a penalty, then Pique's shouldn't have been a penalty but no pundits made a big deal about that. I guess cause it wasn't in a final. If we're going by intent. You can't tell me Pique had intent for a handball when his head was turned the other way

The difference is his hands were way above his head. That was discussed on ESPN FC and they agreed it was a penalty for that reason. The rule is that it has to be deliberate and the way most interpret that is that having your hands above you head like that is not a natural position.

For Perisic, the reason why people are saying it is not a penalty is because his hands naturally come up when he jumps but he is in the process of putting them down when the ball hits him. He can't leave his hands up in the air because that is a clear penalty so you are penalizing him for trying to bring them back down and into his body. Mind you again, this is in slow motion.

The other distinction is the ref calls for the Pique penalty immediately so there is nothing for VAR to review. By contrast, the ref did not call for a penalty against Perisic and his actions in continuing to go back to the video after leaving suggests he wasn't not sure. If you aren't sure, you are supposed to stick with the original call.

[video=youtube;zyQbKgipS9Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyQbKgipS9Y[/video]

 

[dweebs19]

I agree that his hand was above his head and it should be a pk. However, there is no intent. If we're going by the rulebook, how can you say Pique had intent? It's a penalty because his hand is away from his body. Perisic's hand is also away from the body. Intent doesn't matter here either. We can never truly know a player's intent...so that part should be removed from the rule book.

This is where we will disagree but I see Perisic hand go to the ball. If the ball goes to the hand, I can understand. But in this case the hand goes to the ball. Not only does the hand goes to the ball, so does the leg(nobody raises the leg back up as they're falling). That's not a natural motion of a person just going down after jumping. Also, if I'm falling, my right arm and my left arm usually go down at the same speed. Why does his left hand accelerate down faster than his right? Because it's trying to get to the ball. I agree that I have the benefit of watching it in slow motion though. Maybe at full speed it's harder to catch.

Anyway, it is what it is. Shit happens and I do feel for Croatia

 

[bearmick]

If you want to offer up someone else that you think is better than Neymar then let me know.

Du Bruyne, Salah, Modric, Suarez, Kane (as a penalty box striker), Griezmann, Aguero, Hazard, probably more not to the top of my head, on their day are all in consideration. I think after Messi and Ronaldo there's a blob of a dozen or so terrific players, of which Neymar is certainly one, but not, imo, a clear stand out ahead of them.

Otherwise, the consensus once again is that he is the third best player.

:lol: I think that's a consensus derived of you, your pro-Brazil bias, and your ceaseless arguing tenacity.

 

[remydat]

Then why do most refs, pundits and players disagree with the penalty call The people that played the game says it happened too fast for Perisic to be able to react like you are saying.

I think there is a clear difference in what Pique did and what Perisic did. Further again, VAR should only overturn a call if it is clear and the fact there is so much debate over this and the ref had to go back to the video multiple times shows it wasn't clear.

At best this is a situation like we see in football where the original call should stand. I get what you are saying though and it is a worthy debate.

 

[remydat]

Du Bruyne, Salah, Modric, Suarez, Kane, Griezmann, Aguero, Hazard, probably more not to the top of my head, on their day are all in consideration. I think after Messi and Ronaldo there's a blob of a dozen or so terrific players, of which Neymar is certainly one, but not, imo, a clear stand out ahead of them.



:lol: I think that's a consensus derived of you, your pro-Brazil bias, and your ceaseless arguing tenacity.

No I told you where that consensus comes from. It is what the pundits say. If you can find me a ton of people making the claim for any of those guys then link it.

A consensus would be what a group of people say not me.

 

[bearmick]

No I told you where that consensus comes from. It is what the pundits say. If you can find me a ton of people making the claim for any of those guys then link it.

A consensus would be what a group of people say not me.

Which pundits? All of them? When did they all say that?