- Joined:
- Aug 23, 2012
- Posts:
- 9,995
- Liked Posts:
- 3,624
My favorite teams
Is that why his pitch mix was different?
beckdawg
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Oct 31, 2012
- Posts:
- 11,750
- Liked Posts:
- 3,741
Because great talent available in trade comes with reasons for being available in trade.
- Joined:
- Jul 12, 2013
- Posts:
- 20,391
- Liked Posts:
- 14,282
- Location:
- The sewers
My favorite teams
its not always because of some character flaw. talent becomes available for all sorts of reasons. hell kris Bryant could be had for the right deal even....what baggage does he have? my point is there are no absolutes....not EVERY young talent has baggage...that's just silly to think
chibears55
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Apr 18, 2013
- Posts:
- 13,554
- Liked Posts:
- 1,915
The kid pitching at the local high school could be an upgrade over Haren...
Plus their going to be trading for that 2nd starter no matter who they sign..
He isnt price or greinke either...
Again if their satisfied with a middle of pack starter then he it..
Sorry but if they just end up with samardzija and a young starter then it a failed off season adding to the rotation... IMO samardzija is overrated
If Price or Greinke has serious interest in playing for the Cubs and their cost is 25 or so then I expect the Cubs to make that offer otherwise to me as a fan I think they are full of shit then and winning isnt a priority. .
IMO
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk
beckdawg
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Oct 31, 2012
- Posts:
- 11,750
- Liked Posts:
- 3,741
I never said every young player has baggage. I'm not even meaning baggage in the way you're taking it either. Baggage can be injury issues. It can be character flaws. It can be any number of a dozen things. The simple fact of the matter is 24 year olds with Cy Young/MVP talent almost never get traded unless there's a reason to trade them.
I'm also unsure why you're bringing up Bryant in all this. Kris Bryant is not available. There are 0 reports of the cubs wanting to trade him. Is there some mythical combo of players that the cubs would say yes to? Sure, but that's not going to be offered to the cubs because the cost is far too much for any other team to reasonably offer. And there in lies the point. If Fernandez is traded(and there's no guarantee he even will be), it's likely because he clashes with Miami's ownership or because they fear is injury or a combo of both. If he didn't then why in the hell would they trade him? Any team that has a young star they are happy with and who the player is happy with said team will attempt to sign said young player long term.
- Joined:
- Jul 12, 2013
- Posts:
- 20,391
- Liked Posts:
- 14,282
- Location:
- The sewers
My favorite teams
regarding Bryant you made my point for me. if some team for whatever reason offered some crazy offer then you take it. I am not saying the cubs are "shopping" him by any means. it was to make the point that a young star can be had if you are willing to over pay in a trade....which is exactly what the cubs would be doing if they acquired Fernandez, overpaying. thus, making it stupid to acquire him
- Joined:
- Aug 23, 2012
- Posts:
- 9,995
- Liked Posts:
- 3,624
My favorite teams
Haren wasn't with the club long and isn't on the club now. Great, irrelevant comment.
No shit. I think I've already mentioned that a multitude of times.
Ho Lee Shit. He wasn't in them mix for the CY and isn't a TOR? Well that must be news to the whole forum.
Since they need a 3-4, there is likely a reason Epstein visited with him last night.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
No Price. Greinke would be fine.
- Joined:
- Jul 12, 2013
- Posts:
- 20,391
- Liked Posts:
- 14,282
- Location:
- The sewers
My favorite teams
why no to price? curious your reasoning behind not wanting a cy young winner on the cubs when pitching is the biggest need?
- Joined:
- Aug 23, 2012
- Posts:
- 9,995
- Liked Posts:
- 3,624
My favorite teams
Pitching isn't the Cubs biggest need in the regular season. The need a better pitching staff for the post season. Price in the post-season-
2-7 W-L and 5.12 ERA.
- Joined:
- Jul 12, 2013
- Posts:
- 20,391
- Liked Posts:
- 14,282
- Location:
- The sewers
My favorite teams
and you somehow think that sample size is who he is as compared to the hundreds of innings in the reg season that say otherwise?
- Joined:
- Aug 23, 2012
- Posts:
- 9,995
- Liked Posts:
- 3,624
My favorite teams
He's been in the post-season in 6 different years. Oops. That puts your sample size comment in the crapper. Now, I'm not going to run off and be a Cardinal fan because they sign Price. If they do, I'm fine with it, but this is a "you're the GM" thread. If I am the GM, I am not signing someone who has 5.12 ERA in 6 years of playoff experience.
- Joined:
- Jul 12, 2013
- Posts:
- 20,391
- Liked Posts:
- 14,282
- Location:
- The sewers
My favorite teams
yes it is, and if I am the GM I have no issue signing Price to the cubs. and I wouldn't say that it puts my sample size comment in the "crapper." you are still comparing 63.1 innings in the playoffs for price vs. 1,441.2 innings in the reg season. which do you think is more likely to be the law of averages??
and youre okay with signing greinke who is 3 - 3 in the playoffs, not exactly dominating :shrug:
- Joined:
- Aug 23, 2012
- Posts:
- 9,995
- Liked Posts:
- 3,624
My favorite teams
You can claim that sample size, but pitchers aren't every day players. He's had more than enough time. Is he an upgrade to Lester in the regular season? Probably. In the playoffs, where getting to the WS matters he is 2-7. Most pitchers, even successful ones, don't get to pitch in the playoffs in 6 different years. It's a large sample size.
- Joined:
- Jul 12, 2013
- Posts:
- 20,391
- Liked Posts:
- 14,282
- Location:
- The sewers
My favorite teams
agree to disagree then. I hardly consider 63 innings over the course of the last 7 years a large sample size. that's the thing about playoff baseball....a bad start or two and your career playoff numbers will forever look bad. conversely, a great couple games can go a long way to making you look like some sort of playoff stud. ill take his career track record as a whole and think that things will balance out over time for him in the playoffs
beckdawg
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Oct 31, 2012
- Posts:
- 11,750
- Liked Posts:
- 3,741
I disagree with your logic here. There are players you are legitimately available albeit expensive and then there are players who are untouchable. Comparing Bryant who's untouchable to Fernandez who the media thinks may be available is a false equivalency. I honestly don't know if the cubs would deal Bryant for 3 top 15 prospects given his make up and power plus proven ability. How many teams have 3 top 15 prospects? Presently 0. Or put another way, it would be like trading Bryant, Russell and Baez for someone. No team in their right mind is going to give up that many cost controlled potential superstars for one player. And even if you say that's high and only go 2 top 15 prospects for him, there's only like 4 teams that have 2 top 15 prospects(Boston, WAS, LAD, and Texas).
Fernandez if legitimately available isn't going to cost anywhere near that because by very definition, if that's what you're asking for him he's not available. So, to say a young star "can be had" is completely ignorant of how baseball actually functions. The best player at this young of an age who was traded in the past 20 years was probably Miguel Cabrerra and that's only because Miami were slashing payroll and were also fucking stupid. Admittedly that's not him having baggage so much as the organization but it's not like those type of trades happen yearly. That being said, he's the only player in the past 20 years I can think of who was traded for two top 15 prospects and he came with Dontrelle Willis who at the time was a 25 year old All-Star pitcher.
As for whether or not the cubs would be overpaying for Fernandez, that's an assumption as neither of us have any idea of what the present offers are. However, I've presented a multitude of examples earlier in the topic that suggest if he is traded it will be for far less than the names people are throwing around because as I have said, teams aren't making Hershel Walker trades in baseball. Regardless, to suggest that you're going to find a 24 year old player of cy young/MVP caliber with 3 years of team control who has nothing bad against him available for trade that you can actually pay for is pretty much never happening. In the past 20 years, Cabrera is the only name I can come up with who fits what you're suggesting which makes him the exception not the norm and even then people thought that trade was stupid for Miami.
beckdawg
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Oct 31, 2012
- Posts:
- 11,750
- Liked Posts:
- 3,741
Cubs claimed Jack Leathersich from the mets.
- Joined:
- Jul 12, 2013
- Posts:
- 20,391
- Liked Posts:
- 14,282
- Location:
- The sewers
My favorite teams
dude I simply used Bryant as an example, I should have just said "player A" because the players name doesn't really matter. I was making a point that to trade for young stars you have to overpay, that is plain and simple.
and im pretty sure if the angels offered you mike trout youd trade Bryant in a heartbeat. again that wont be happening but the point is everyone is technically available....its just varying degrees. youre simply reading too much into it
oh and as far as the cost it would take to get Fernandez, I can tell you it would be overpaying because if Miami doesn't get what they want for him(a kings ransom), then they simply just hang on to him until they do since they have him under control for 3 more years. they aren't in a position of must trade
beckdawg
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Oct 31, 2012
- Posts:
- 11,750
- Liked Posts:
- 3,741
I just disagree with you saying technically everyone is available. Whether that's true or not, effectively they aren't and that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if in some dream world/madden thought process a team might trade Trout or whomever for half the cubs roster because effectively that doesn't happen in baseball. And the statement of "to trade for young stars you have to overpay" is just factually not true. Beckett was a young star and the trade of Hanley and Sanchez for him and others was a fair trade for both sides. And to move away from Miami just being crazy for a moment, Billy Beane traded a 25 year old Gio Gonzo for A.J. Cole, Tommy Milone, Derek Norris and Brad Peacock. That's a fair trade. I could literally cite dozens of examples here.
Put another way, the trades that actually happen and aren't message board dreams are fair trades. You can suggest that Miami will just hold on to Fernandez. It's a fair point and I have mentioned as much when replying to TC and others. But I'm not making this chatter up. Actual reporters who apparently have actual sources are. In the vast majority of these cases be it Hamels, Shark, Garza...etc it's not an "if" they get traded it's a when. The reports coming out are that he wants to be dealt which basically removes most of Miami's leverage because eventually it's them on a timer and not the other team. Additionally, every year of control they let slip by is less teams are going to offer.
So, maybe they over play their hand like Philly apparently tried to with Hamels. However, doing so didn't net Philly more. As such, if a team isn't willing to give up certain players now they surely aren't going to do it a year from now when Fernandez is arguably worth less with only 2 years of control. Trades happen when they are fair.
DanTown
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Mar 31, 2009
- Posts:
- 2,446
- Liked Posts:
- 509
I'd hope the Cubs turn down Kershaw for a bag of balls. Kershaw and his 4.59 ERA in the playoffs can hit the bricks.
And for the record, 6 years of incredibly limited starts is still a small sample size since it's only 64 innings. There are legit reasons to not want David Price; his previous 64 innings of playoff pitching probably isn't one of them.
beckdawg
Well-known member
- Joined:
- Oct 31, 2012
- Posts:
- 11,750
- Liked Posts:
- 3,741
This Jack Leathersich that the cubs claimed from the mets is kind of interesting reliever. To start with he's a lefty. Looking at his pitch f/x he apparently throws a fastball, a curve and a change. His fastball averages 91 and tops out at 93. His change up sits at 82. He's only thrown the curve 25 times in the majors(he's 25) so it's tough to get a read on how good it is. On the other hand, in the minors over 210 IP he struck out 15.2 per 9. The down side..... he walked 4.9 per 9. Still, that's a pretty absurd k rate if they can get his control under 4 bb/9.