1994 Bulls vs 2011 Bulls in 7 game series

[97Bulls]

Pippen was NOT a clutch offensive player...not at all. On the second 3peat teams, Jordan and Kukoc were both more clutch. Its one of the main reasons, people erroneously say Pippen isn't great. But I can think of a million players that I would depend on in the clutch before Pippen.

Well how many legit time did he have to hit game winning shots? I know you alluded to him missing some FTs. But he was never a good ft shooter to begin with, but if your talking about taking over games, there's many. It seems as if you expected him to do the impossible. What do you mean by saying pippen wasnt clutch? Are you saying he didnt take over games? Or cuz he didn't hit the game winning shot?

 

[houheffna]

Oh come off it. A few indiscretions don't make a career. You can say that about just about every player. You really don't like scottie do you.

No you CAN'T say that about just about every player. Bill Cartwright stood in the locker room and cried after that game because that always happened to him? No...its because it NEVER HAPPENED TO HIM BEFORE! Say "1.8" to any Bulls fan and see the reaction.

The "you don't like Scottie" stuff is childish. Please stop. I think Scottie was a great player, I don't worship him. So take that crap elsewhere please...

 

[97Bulls]

No you CAN'T say that about just about every player. Bill Cartwright stood in the locker room and cried after that game because that always happened to him? No...its because it NEVER HAPPENED TO HIM BEFORE! Say "1.8" to any Bulls fan and see the reaction.

The "you don't like Scottie" stuff is childish. Please stop. I think Scottie was a great player, I don't worship him. So take that crap elsewhere please...

Im being sarcastic with the don't like scottie stuff. Anyway, your talking about 1 terrible decision in an 18 year career. The man sacrificed basically his whole career for the good of the team. There's no doubt in my mind that if pippen had 8 years leading a team, he'd have an mvp, lead a team to a championship and won a dpoy award.

 

[houheffna]

Im being sarcastic with the don't like scottie stuff. Anyway, your talking about 1 terrible decision in an 18 year career. The man sacrificed basically his whole career for the good of the team. There's no doubt in my mind that if pippen had 8 years leading a team, he'd have an mvp, lead a team to a championship and won a dpoy award.

Maybe, but he never did have 8 years, his 1.75 years with the Bulls were a bit tumultuous. The argument can also be made that without Jordan, Pippen is not as good a player as he was. Jordan did take Pippen under his wing...

 

[97Bulls]

Maybe, but he never did have 8 years, his 1.75 years with the Bulls were a bit tumultuous. The argument can also be made that without Jordan, Pippen is not as good a player as he was. Jordan did take Pippen under his wing...

And without pippen, jordan doesn't reach the atmospheric heights he reached. The two needed each other. And please top with the without jordan pippen doesn't nonsense. So now pippen is penalized for jordan being his mentor. Why didn't jordan help brad sellers? Why didn't jordan help anybody else? Only pippen was able to get his great teachings? Come off it.

And how weree his 1.75 years tumutuous? He lead the bulls to 55 wins and had then on pace for 45 wins with literraly no talent. Pippen did an amazing job under the circumstances.

 

[houheffna]

And without pippen, jordan doesn't reach the atmospheric heights he reached. The two needed each other. And please top with the without jordan pippen doesn't nonsense. So now pippen is penalized for jordan being his mentor. Why didn't jordan help brad sellers? Why didn't jordan help anybody else? Only pippen was able to get his great teachings? Come off it.

And how weree his 1.75 years tumutuous? He lead the bulls to 55 wins and had then on pace for 45 wins with literraly no talent. Pippen did an amazing job under the circumstances.

Go read a damn book man! Pippen sought out Jordan. Jordan didn't like Brad Sellers! Nobody penalized Pippen for being mentored by Jordan. But I find it interesting how Pippen fans like to overrate Pippen as if he can shut everybody in the league down because he practiced against Jordan, but don't want to give credit to Jordan for helping Pippen develop his game.

I pointed out in what ways they were tumultuous already. He quit on his team, that caused controversy, he flipped off fans...that was controversial. He threw a chair, losing his temper after getting thrown out of a game. Tumult does not directly affect success all the time.

By the way, I am pretty damn sure Jordan would have been a great player without Pippen, I don't know if that is the case with Pippen without Jordan.

 

[97Bulls]

Go read a damn book man! Pippen sought out Jordan. Jordan didn't like Brad Sellers! Nobody penalized Pippen for being mentored by Jordan. But I find it interesting how Pippen fans like to overrate Pippen as if he can shut everybody in the league down because he practiced against Jordan, but don't want to give credit to Jordan for helping Pippen develop his game.

I pointed out in what ways they were tumultuous already. He quit on his team, that caused controversy, he flipped off fans...that was controversial. He threw a chair, losing his temper after getting thrown out of a game. Tumult does not directly affect success all the time.

By the way, I am pretty damn sure Jordan would have been a great player without Pippen, I don't know if that is the case with Pippen without Jordan.

Jordan was a great player. But he wasn't a winner. And jordan type players aren't easy to win with. And im not saying that jordan didn't help pippen. But I do think pippen would've beeen great with or without jordan. How bout this. If jordan doesn't return and pippen has 4 years and a capable team. He achieves a championship, an mvp, and a dpoy.

And how do you know jordan didn't like sellars? Cuz he called him a bust when jabbing at krause? And even if he didn't like sellars, if he's trying to win, what does it matter as to whether or not he likes brad sellars. Iff you remember during the draft, red auerbach said sellars was talented but he wasn't a bigman. He had guardlike skills. Similar to garnett.

Lol at you saying jordan wouldn't help sellars cuz he didn't like him.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Jordan was a great player. But he wasn't a winner. And jordan type players aren't easy to win with. And im not saying that jordan didn't help pippen. But I do think pippen would've beeen great with or without jordan. How bout this. If jordan doesn't return and pippen has 4 years and a capable team. He achieves a championship, an mvp, and a dpoy.

And how do you know jordan didn't like sellars? Cuz he called him a bust when jabbing at krause? And even if he didn't like sellars, if he's trying to win, what does it matter as to whether or not he likes brad sellars. Iff you remember during the draft, red auerbach said sellars was talented but he wasn't a bigman. He had guardlike skills. Similar to garnett.

Lol at you saying jordan wouldn't help sellars cuz he didn't like him.

maybe the absolute dumbest thing i have ever read on this board

 

[97Bulls]

maybe the absolute dumbest thing i have ever read on this board

Let me rephrase this statement. Jordan was a winner. He didn't win before pippen came along. And I don't think he's an easy player to build a championship team around cuz someone gonna have to sacrifice. And it aint gonna be jordan. So your correct, that was a dumb statement on my part

 

[X]

maybe the absolute dumbest thing i have ever read on this board

6 championships. GOAT. 6 finals MVPs. nah..

Now that Karl Malone. He was a winner.

 

[houheffna]

Jordan was a great player. But he wasn't a winner. And jordan type players aren't easy to win with. And im not saying that jordan didn't help pippen. But I do think pippen would've beeen great with or without jordan. How bout this. If jordan doesn't return and pippen has 4 years and a capable team. He achieves a championship, an mvp, and a dpoy.

And how do you know jordan didn't like sellars? Cuz he called him a bust when jabbing at krause? And even if he didn't like sellars, if he's trying to win, what does it matter as to whether or not he likes brad sellars. Iff you remember during the draft, red auerbach said sellars was talented but he wasn't a bigman. He had guardlike skills. Similar to garnett.

Lol at you saying jordan wouldn't help sellars cuz he didn't like him.

Jordan was a great player...but he wasn't a winner??? That is the dumbest shit I have ever read about basketball.

Pippen wins nothing without the greatest player ever...what the heck were you watching? Good grief man...that was just god awful stupid. If anybody, YOU need to "come off it"...okay, you did come off it...I am glad to see that.

 

[X]

Let me rephrase this statement. Jordan was a winner. He didn't win before pippen came along. And I don't think he's an easy player to build a championship team around cuz someone gonna have to sacrifice. And it aint gonna be jordan. So your correct, that was a dumb statement on my part

Scottie and Jordan played together for like 4 years before winning a 'ship. Can't use the "he didn't when until pip came around" argument.

 

[houheffna]

Scottie and Jordan played together for like 4 years before winning a 'ship. Can't use the "he didn't when until pip came around" argument.

It is true that Jordan didn't win anything until Pippen came along, but what is funny is that he talks of the MVPs and DPOY that Jordan kept him from winning, but don't want to see Jordan winning without Pippen.

 

[97Bulls]

Scottie and Jordan played together for like 4 years before winning a 'ship. Can't use the "he didn't when until pip came around" argument.

I used that to show they both needed each other. Im not knocking jordan. But let's not act like jordan was winning championships when pippen was drafted.

 

[X]

I used that to show they both needed each other. Im not knocking jordan. But let's not act like jordan was winning championships when pippen was drafted.

they came into the nba nearly at the same time. Jordan could've won 'ships w/out pippen, no doubt. Pippen maybe could've won some w/out Jordan, but he would need another leading scorer.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Blue Oyster or not...

Dude is right though, had it not been for Toni Kukoc, Pippen's career in Chicago would have been OVER!!!!! Bill Cartwright cried after that game...told Scottie that no teammate had ever done that to him. His career here was done...no way he overcomes that.

and that coming from a guy who was berated daily by Jordan in practice.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

yes pippen was a huge part in why jordan won championships(partly because alot of the eastern dynastic teams of the 80s were falling and there was a transition period..however that doesnt mean that the nba overall was down)..but jordan won games and series before pippen...

and lets not act like the pippen was a better winner than jordan or would have been a top 5 great if he had been playing long term as the leader of a team like the bulls....

 

[97Bulls]

It is true that Jordan didn't win anything until Pippen came along, but what is funny is that he talks of the MVPs and DPOY that Jordan kept him from winning, but don't want to see Jordan winning without Pippen.

Lol it has nothing to do with me not wanting to be able to see jordan winning. And is what I said so far-fetched? Look at this thread. Pippen role, accomplishments etc are trivialized and scrutinized cuz he didn't lead a team to a championship as the best player on the team. No we get pippen wasn't that good cuz he didn't lead the trailblazers at 35 years old, or cuz he threw a chair, or he wasnt clutch, or he didnt take over games. And to back these stupid assumptions up, people like you allude to a bad game. Just stupid reason after stupid reason.

All im saying is there's alot of player that faire no better than pippen when they were put in his situation. In fact, they faired farrr worse. Jordan included.

 

[97Bulls]

they came into the nba nearly at the same time. Jordan could've won 'ships w/out pippen, no doubt. Pippen maybe could've won some w/out Jordan, but he would need another leading scorer.

They did? That's new. So what your saying is jordan could win with anybody else? Or does he need scorers too? And if he does, what's the difference?

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

btw i did a simulation of 93-94 bulls vs. 10-11 bulls on whatifsports.com

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 1:10-11 bulls win 102-93

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 2:10-11 bulls win 105-92

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 3:10-11 bulls win 115-108

WhatIfSports.com: Fantasy Sports Simulation -- SimLeague Basketball Boxscore
game 4:10-11 bulls win 107-99

now do i think this simulator is void of fallacies and inaccuracies? absolutely not(underrates defense..shown by the high scoring of the 10-11 bulls despite being defensively based)....

still those simulations cannot be completely dismissed...10-11 bulls won 4-0...does that mean they'd be that dominating over the 93-94 bulls? no

but the 10-11 bulls are a fantastic defensive team not to mention they have a good frontline and the MVP