2013-14 NHL Season Discussion

[Shantz My Pants]

At Variables last post that Lord quoted:


There is a huge lack of respect amongst players nowadays. That goes right back to the instigator penalty.


What does a Torres or Kaleta have to worry about when they go over the edge? With no instigator would Torres have taken that run at Hossa? Maybe, but Bollig would of gotten a chance to pound the shit out of him and not hurt his team. After a couple of those, I'm sure Torres would lay off a bit.


YOU think hockey doesn't need fighting, but 98% of the players and many GMs feel it's necessary.


I'll give you a better example. When the Express were around I went a to a couple games. In the ECHL there is no instigator penalty. Many of the skaters are trying to make a name for themselves so they can move up and get a higher pay day. The league is also an enforcer filled junction. I saw some of the cleanest check hockey games during that time. Could it have anything to do with the fact that if someone got stupid they knew they'd get their shit kicked?

 

[MassHavoc]

Couple of delayed responses here but first of all, **** you wolfie for reminding me that the metro division was an actual thing again... If we get rid of the 1 point shootout loss we should get rid of calling it the fucking metro division.</p>


 </p>


And two... how does Mike Smith get away with a show boat goal when it's 4-2 but that rookie takes shit for his sweet shot for his 4th goal or whatever it was.</p>

 

[LordKOTL]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Trev" data-cid="211793" data-time="1382376748">
<div>


At Variables last post that Lord quoted:


There is a huge lack of respect amongst players nowadays. That goes right back to the instigator penalty.

What does a Torres or Kaleta have to worry about when they go over the edge? With no instigator would Torres have taken that run at Hossa? Maybe, but Bollig would of gotten a chance to pound the shit out of him and not hurt his team. After a couple of those, I'm sure Torres would lay off a bit.


YOU think hockey doesn't need fighting, but 98% of the players and many GMs feel it's necessary.


I'll give you a better example. When the Express were around I went a to a couple games. In the ECHL there is no instigator penalty. Many of the skaters are trying to make a name for themselves so they can move up and get a higher pay day. The league is also an enforcer filled junction. I saw some of the cleanest check hockey games during that time. Could it have anything to do with the fact that if someone got stupid they knew they'd get their shit kicked?</p>
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</blockquote>


Just to put this in perspective: Bollig did go after Torres after Hossa got blindsided, but Torres felt his menses running down his leg and had to adjust his Kotex...or turtled, I couldn't tell which.  He got a major, minor, and a 10 minute game misconduct. for that while Torres got all of jack and shit.</p>


 </p>


The onl;y thing that would have worked against Torres was someone with a mean streak like Twist in a Roid-rage, or Probert not letting something as minor as a linesman holding him back or attending to a fallen player from exacting revenge.</p>


 </p>


But ultimately the point still stands:  if Evander Kane put Cooke out like he did--there's a chance Bollig could have done the same to Torres before he shrank and shriveled up like your balls diving into freezing water--and that means that there's less of a chance Torres can do it again until the Leage stops pussyfooting around the issue.</p>

 

[Variable]

But again, what seemingly everybody forgets, back  without the instigator, there were more examples of cheap shots, of dirty hits, head shots,etc. All penalties across the board were at all time highs. Forget about fighting, boarding, elbowing, charging, roughing  etc, all of it through the roof and keep in mind this is during a time where hits and incidents that wouldn't have been called a penalty back then easily would have been called one now without a doubt, which proves the point even more. It was hands down the most violent era of hockey.  When enforcers had their run, at their peak, there was only more of that type of behavior, not less.</p>


 </p>


To some, it may seem like there's more of it today because what's changed today is our perspective of it and our handling of it now knowing just how much damage just a single concussion can do. I mean, that hit Garbutt put on Penner,  a guy like Scott Stevens in his day would've been applauded for a hit like that. By and large, it wouldn't have been seen as disgusting, it would just be seen as a hockey play. His head was down, or he wasn't aware of who was on the ice, fair game. That's pretty much all there would've been to it. Nothing more.  That hit on Kronwall? Nothing whatsoever. That was during the time where making guys like Lindros out to be "soft" was the cool thing to do among players and GMs and fans and people in and around the game of hockey. Where the generation before them the cool thing to do was criticize players who wore helmets and before that, goalies who wore masks. So we're supposed to believe what they think is best for the sport is ALWAYS the best course of action? No other sport  continues to bend to that type of crazy the way the NHL does.</p>


 </p>


Things have changed, you have to adapt to the times. Or you get stuck, like the NHL is, half-assing it, which just makes things look even worse. Fighting and the culture/myth of the players being able to actually "police" themselves is a part of that.</p>

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Man I sure love when the Penguins lose... but it really fucking sucks that it keeps being West teams that beat them.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Colorado has only allowed 12 goals in 9 games.

Varlamov and Giguere may be the sickest 1-2 punch in the NHL this year.

34 save shutout tonight for Giguere.

 

[Shantz My Pants]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="211873" data-time="1382400835">


But again, what seemingly everybody forgets, back without the instigator, there were more examples of cheap shots, of dirty hits, head shots,etc. All penalties across the board were at all time highs. Forget about fighting, boarding, elbowing, charging, roughing etc, all of it through the roof and keep in mind this is during a time where hits and incidents that wouldn't have been called a penalty back then easily would have been called one now without a doubt, which proves the point even more. It was hands down the most violent era of hockey. When enforcers had their run, at their peak, there was only more of that type of behavior, not less.


To some, it may seem like there's more of it today because what's changed today is our perspective of it and our handling of it now knowing just how much damage just a single concussion can do. I mean, that hit Garbutt put on Penner, a guy like Scott Stevens in his day would've been applauded for a hit like that. By and large, it wouldn't have been seen as disgusting, it would just be seen as a hockey play. His head was down, or he wasn't aware of who was on the ice, fair game. That's pretty much all there would've been to it. Nothing more. That hit on Kronwall? Nothing whatsoever. That was during the time where making guys like Lindros out to be "soft" was the cool thing to do among players and GMs and fans and people in and around the game of hockey. Where the generation before them the cool thing to do was criticize players who wore helmets and before that, goalies who wore masks. So we're supposed to believe what they think is best for the sport is ALWAYS the best course of action? No other sport continues to bend to that type of crazy the way the NHL does.


Things have changed, you have to adapt to the times. Or you get stuck, like the NHL is, half-assing it, which just makes things look even worse. Fighting and the culture/myth of the players being able to actually "police" themselves is a part of that.</p></blockquote>


Penalties at an all time high? Please show me the statistics on this claim. How about we look at real stats, like the pre-instigator injury column. How many concussions did Gretzky, Lemieux, Brett Hull, Adam Oates, Marcel Dionne, Lafleur, Bossy, Yashin, Messier, Jagr, Sakic, Stastny, Robatille, Federov, Bure, Lindstrom all have?


How about we count today's stars of Crosby (multiple), Toews (multiple), Hossa, Marc Savard, Nash, Malkin, Richards, Giroux, Skinner, Horton, ETC. None of those are from fighting either. Many of which were from someone taking liberties with them.


If two guys want to go at it, let them. It's entertaining. If it wasn't, boxing and UFC would of been dead long ago. Nothing adds a bit more excitement to a game or extra story line than with two teams that absolutely hate each other about to break out into a brawl. Avs and Red Wings of the late 90s early 00s? Those games were exciting and entertaining. Blues and Red Wings? Same thing.


For something that happens so little in today's NHL (38% of all games will have one fight, or a little over 1 in 3) it seems your blinders are shielding the bigger issues involved (dirty/illegal hits).

 

[Variable]

You really expect me or anyone, even the players themselves, even if you had asked them  when it happened, to be able to tell you how many concussions they had back then? That's impossible and completely unreliable as doctors back then wouldn't have been able to either in some cases. Countless just went undiagnosed or ignored. There is so much more we know today about it, so many ways to detect it to where even you may not think you suffered a concussion when in fact  you did. The standard decades ago was nowhere near what it is today, or even as short as 5 or 10 years ago. It may as well been nonexistent to be honest. You cannot tell me back when the vast majority of players played without helmets, that there weren't more concussions. Just from incidental contact alone, I'm not even talking about fighting.</p>


 </p>


And are you really going to argue that the 70s-80s wasn't the most violent era of hockey?  That's what it was known for.</p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="211893" data-time="1382420177">


You really expect me or anyone, even the players themselves, even if you had asked them when it happened, to be able to tell you how many concussions they had back then? That's impossible and completely unreliable as doctors back then wouldn't have been able to either in some cases. Countless just went undiagnosed or ignored. There is so much more we know today about it, so many ways to detect it to where even you may not think you suffered a concussion when in fact you did. The standard decades ago was nowhere near what it is today, or even as short as 5 or 10 years ago. It may as well been nonexistent to be honest. You cannot tell me back when the vast majority of players played without helmets, that there weren't more concussions. Just from incidental contact alone, I'm not even talking about fighting.


And are you really going to argue that the 70s-80s wasn't the most violent era of hockey? That's what it was known for.</p></blockquote>


Again, those guys I listed were barely touched let alone played cheaply. Other players who play physical and such, yeah they suffered more than they were diagnosed with. Though, most guys who play a physical game have a higher risk of injury. Fighting wasn't put into place to protect them though.


Violent how? More fights? Sure. More cheap shots? I wouldn't go that far as today's game has plenty of cheap shots, atleast a major one every other game due to the lack of respect amongst the players.


You want to eliminate fighting right now? Fine go ahead, but say good by to the talent across the league. The Kaleta's and Torres's of the league are going to run the league into the dirt with no absolutely no fear. More guys will play over the edge as they know they can hit who ever they want and have now zero repercussions. At least now they know if they do something questionable, there is a good chance at some point they will have to answer to their actions. Maybe not immediately but very likely in the future. I'm sure with some guys, this fear keeps them from crossing the line.

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Grimson" data-cid="211880" data-time="1382408465">
<div>


Man I sure love when the Penguins lose... but it really fucking sucks that it keeps being West teams that beat them.</p>
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The West is just leagues ahead of the East this season at this point.</p>

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Hahahah Scott just pwned Eriksson.

Pussy ass Eriksson.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Everything bad that happens to anything to do with Boston is OK in my book. Keep your head up Louis Special person.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Shut up Penis McGuire you fucking dumbass:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni0aYmQJJqg#t=57

How about Eriksson doesn't admire his clear that resulted in icing?

 

[Variable]

....It was a blatant headshot. There's like a millisecond of  him "admiring".</p>

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Variable" data-cid="212085" data-time="1382583889">

....It was a blatant headshot. There's like a millisecond of  him "admiring".</p></blockquote>
Louis is a veteran he should know to keep his head up.

Not Scott's fault he's 7 inches taller. Initial contact made with shoulder.

 

[JOVE23]

</p>

 

[xatruio]

yeah that really wasnt late..... and i think this will be just like Thornton on Perron a couple years back, hes just fucking taller than the dude, nothing malicious i dont think.

 

[Variable]

It doesn't have to have malicious intent, it's still a head shot. Still have  to know better by now.</p>

 

[Variable]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Trev" data-cid="211903" data-time="1382445002">
<div>


Violent how? More fights? Sure. More cheap shots? I wouldn't go that far as today's game has plenty of cheap shots, atleast a major one every other game due to the lack of respect amongst the players.


You want to eliminate fighting right now? Fine go ahead, but say good by to the talent across the league. The Kaleta's and Torres's of the league are going to run the league into the dirt with no absolutely no fear. More guys will play over the edge as they know they can hit who ever they want and have now zero repercussions. At least now they know if they do something questionable, there is a good chance at some point they will have to answer to their actions. Maybe not immediately but very likely in the future. I'm sure with some guys, this fear keeps them from crossing the line.</p>
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</blockquote>


 </p>


Like I said though, the definition of what a cheap shot or a dirty hit today has changed from what it was before. Some of the examples today we see of dirty hits years ago wouldn't have been seen as such. We're seeing things differently now because our understandings of things like head trauma have changed. It's impossible to be ignored,even for the most stubborn person. Because no matter what you believe in this debate, every time now that word "concussion" is mentioned, everyone has this sinking feeling, whereas before not nearly as much. Because years and years prior you wouldn't be seeing  players every year sit sometimes for months on end until their symptoms cleared up. But the game hasn't quite caught up to those understandings yet. Not in how it disciplines players that dish out that kind of damage, especially for repeat offenders, and not in how it continues to defend fighting as any sort of reasonable effort to deter behavior like that.</p>


 </p>


I've never, ever said that the actual fighting itself is a bigger problem than the league's horrible lack of consistency with disciplining players for dirty play.  But fighting is a part of that, due to their horribly flawed reasoning of players being able to police themselves  Fighting  hasn't stopped guys like Torres. That's a myth and I think it's safe to say that more than a few of those  that are pro fighting know that as well and may even say as much.</p>

 

[Shantz My Pants]

No, fighting doesn't deter them because they know if someone comes over and starts shit with them, they can turtle and their team gets a power play plus. You can thank that to the instigator.


Fighting is not as big of an issue right now then headshots. It's a different end of the physical spectrum. One is about respects, the other is about playing over the edge and possibly ending guys careers.