2021-2022 IGT Masterthread

[Enasic]

I never claimed it to be the only measurement anyone should look at. Nice try strawman

let me know when you’re not too mad and can have a rational discussion

Straw man? Sorry, I read something about how dare anyone question VORP, the king stat, the WAR of basketball or something. Maybe I misunderstood you? Or maybe you’re toning it down now? Either way…I agree the two are close. I give the edge to Demar, if others give it to Zach that’s fair. Just a difference of opinion

 

[knoxville7]

Straw man? Sorry, I read something about how dare anyone question VORP, the king stat, the WAR of basketball or something. Maybe I misunderstood you? Or maybe you’re toning it down now? Either way…I agree the two are close. I give the edge to Demar, if others give it to Zach that’s fair. Just a difference of opinion

Or maybe you just need to work on the reading comprehension some.

I claimed that VORP is the most accurate of the advanced metrics and shouldn’t be ignored. You somehow extrapolated that into me saying it’s the only thing anyone should look at

 

[Enasic]

I don’t. He’s more mature and always been a winner. Zach needs him but that doesn’t mean he’s better.
We’ve seen now with COVID that Lavine/DeRozan is a poor mans jordan/pippen…but I should probably call them the upper middle class or upper management version.
But they are VITAL. They need each other.
Ball has been the high level role player we now love and more. And he might be vital if we didn’t have so many options at guard right now. You can aproximate his non-playoff value for brief stretches with a combination of White/Ayo/Caruso

You could argue that they’re the perfect pairing. They compliment each other so well. I loved the fit going into the season…but it’s been even better than I expected

 

[Scoot26]

lol, OMG, VORP is not an end all discussion stat. VORP is a piece of the puzzle.

All advanced metrics have their issues. VORPs major flaw is it really needs a whole seasons data to truly be effective and obviously this season is not complete.

 

[knoxville7]

lol, OMG, VORP is not an end all discussion stat. VORP is a piece of the puzzle.

All advanced metrics have their issues. VORPs major flaw is it really needs a whole seasons data to truly be effective and obviously this season is not complete.

Nobody is claiming it to be

 

[Enasic]

Or maybe you just need to work on the reading comprehension some.

I claimed that VORP is the most accurate of the advanced metrics and shouldn’t be ignored. You somehow extrapolated that into me saying it’s the only thing anyone should look at

Ehhh…I don’t even think it’s the most accurate. When Zach is ranked 12th and Demar is ranked 30th, seems silly to go on about how great it is and insinuate it’s comparable to a baseball stat. Two very different games and stats are a lot more limited in basketball. Moving on….

 

[knoxville7]

Ehhh…I don’t even think it’s the most accurate. When Zach is ranked 12th and Demar is ranked 30th, seems silly to go on about how great it is and insinuate it’s comparable to a baseball stat. Two very different games and stats are a lot more limiting in basketball. Moving on….

Lmao the stat doesn’t back up what your opinion is, so clearly how could it be the most accurate of the advanced stats, right?! Sure, let’s move on…

 

[Raskolnikov]

Ball is such an elite passer, he’s like pooring gasoline on Lavine/DeRozan and picks them up in all the little ways. Smart player. His size is great for playing 2 other guards also.
Damn shame we don’t have Williams, but I really think he would have found his way to bench mob status just like he was at Florida State. He’s still 2-3 years from really coming into control of his powers.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Ehhh…I don’t even think it’s the most accurate. When Zach is ranked 12th and Demar is ranked 30th, seems silly to go on about how great it is and insinuate it’s comparable to a baseball stat. Two very different games and stats are a lot more limited in basketball. Moving on….

Your right that Ball and DeRozan have more killer instinct and clutch gene. Just Lavine is ungodly talented.
Why are we arguing? The trio turned out to be more than the sum of parts…it’s beautiful.

 

[Scoot26]

Lmao the stat doesn’t back up what your opinion is, so clearly how could it be the most accurate of the advanced stats, right?! Sure, let’s move on…

There's a lot of arguments against this. A lot of people say RPM is a better stat (This is an ESPN stat and not used by basketball-reference, though BPM has similarities to it).

 

[Enasic]

Lmao the stat doesn’t back up what your opinion is, so clearly how could it be the most accurate of the advanced stats, right?! Sure, let’s move on…

Umm….what? Lol…you’re spinning your tires now, Knox. Again…Zach is ranked 12th and Demar is ranked 30th. Let that sink in…but sure, let’s all bow to the most accurate advanced stat! Lol…come off it dude

 

[knoxville7]

There's a lot of arguments against this. A lot of people say RPM is a better stat (This is an ESPN stat and not used by basketball-reference, though BPM has similarities to it).

Well. ZL is ahead of Demar in BPM as well. Can’t find RPM stats for this season on ESPN, but I imagine if it’s similar to BPM…

 

[knoxville7]

Umm….what? Lol…you’re spinning your tires now, Knox. Again…Zach is ranked 12th and Demar is ranked 30th. Let that sink in…but sure, let’s all bow to the most accurate advanced stat! Lol…come off it dude

So it’s impossible that Demar could be ranked 30th in an advanced metric and have it hold merit?

 

[ZOMBIE@CTESPN]

Ball is such an elite passer, he’s like pooring gasoline on Lavine/DeRozan and picks them up in all the little ways. Smart player. His size is great for playing 2 other guards also.
Damn shame we don’t have Williams, but I really think he would have found his way to bench mob status just like he was at Florida State. He’s still 2-3 years from really coming into control of his powers.

Biggest shame with Williams going down is he could have been good trade bait to improve on what seems to be a stacked team

 

[Enasic]

So it’s impossible that Demar could be ranked 30th in an advanced metric and have it hold merit?

Unless you believe all the players ranked ahead of Demar are better?

Like scoot said, it’s part of the puzzle but it’s definitely flawed just as the rest of the advanced stats in various ways. Your claim that it’s “the most accurate” advanced metric is an opinion, not fact…there are not 29 better players than DeRozan in the nba right now.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Biggest shame with Williams going down is he could have been good trade bait to improve on what seems to be a stacked team

He plays the position we need most, IMO, as well as being either a ball stopper or pick n role defender(unusual at PF)

for those that mentioned Gafford, the Louisville Cardinals have an interesting second round pick in Malik Williams that reminds me of Gafford. Williams is probably older and more mature defensively.

I just read an article about how effective Williams is statistically in discussing his ACC defensive player of year bid.
He could be worth targeting as the right ready to play now role player for us to fortify PF/C depth next year.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Unless you believe all the players ranked ahead of Demar are better?

Like scoot said, it’s part of the puzzle but it’s definitely flawed just as the rest of the advanced stats in various ways. Your claim that it’s “the most accurate” advanced metric is an opinion, not fact…there are not 29 better players than DeRozan in the nba right now.

How many are left if you account for minutes and PPG responsibility that DeRozan carries?

but he is interesting in that his penetration and ball pressure opens the game for others. Then he carries the clutch gene in 4th quarter…also at 33 it probably that you are only seeing how good he really is in the 4th quarter.

 

[knoxville7]

Unless you believe all the players ranked ahead of Demar are better?

Like scoot said, it’s part of the puzzle but it’s definitely flawed just as the rest of the advanced stats in various ways. Your claim that it’s “the most accurate” advanced metric is an opinion, not fact…there are not 29 better players than DeRozan in the nba right now.

I agree that is an opinion. Just like it’s an opinion that there aren’t 29 better players in the nba currently. You may think it’s so, and it may very well be so…but you can’t prove it and thus it’s an opinion too

really, all you’ve managed to do is agree with my original comment that started all this, that an argument can be made that ZL is the bulls best player. Congrats on making all this fuss over just agreeing with me about my original comment

BTW, the VORP stat has Demar tied with Luka. It’s not as though it’s claiming demar sucks or some shit

 

[Raskolnikov]

I agree that is an opinion. Just like it’s an opinion that there aren’t 29 better players in the nba currently. You may think it’s so, and it may very well be so…but you can’t prove it and thus it’s an opinion too

really, all you’ve managed to do is agree with my original comment that started all this, that an argument can be made that ZL is the bulls best player. Congrats on making all this fuss over just agreeing with me about my original comment

BTW, the VORP stat has Demar tied with Luka. It’s not as though it’s claiming demar sucks or some shit

And there’s an example of a much better player than those above him who carries massive responsibility.

 

[knoxville7]

Your win shares/per 48 has Daniel gafford ahead of Demar…VORP at least doesn’t make that “GAFF” lol