A couple throw away seasons turning into sustained long term success...........

[KBisBack!]

Did the fans revolt?

Did they have to sit through a 100 loss season?

No??

Did they have to sit through a second season that looks like it will be at least a 95 loss season right after the 100 loss season??

No??

Nice try, but not even close.

 

[KBisBack!]

Holy cow, it looks like I have to help out the Slurpers and spoon feed them the team closest to what the Cubs are trying to do.

The Oakland A's.

The went from the Bash Brothers that were successful in the late 80's, early 90's when they finally got rid of McGwire in '97 and also the end of Canseco's second time in Oakland to the team that went to the playoffs 4 straight years from 2000 - 2003 losing in the first round in 5 games every season.

They went from a top 10 payroll in 1995 to a bottom payroll in 1996.

Here is the part that people seem to miss though.

That story and accomplishment was so remarkable and unlikely that they wrote a book about it which was turned into an Academy Award nominated film.

If it was as easy and simple as many have been conned into believing, no one would care about a book being written about it and it wouldn't have been made into a movie because no one cares about going to see a movie about simple and easy. People want to see movies about remarkable and unlikely.

Here is the post script to that story also....

After their 4 straight seasons of losing in the first round of the playoffs (the same round the Cubs lost in that branded Hendry a failure by the way), only 2 more trips to the playoffs in the next nine seasons.

 

[Willrust]

KB,

Their team payroll went from $78M in 2002 to $76M in 2008. They may have have turned the roster over, but they didn't intentionally throw away seasons and drastically cut payroll to focus only on the farm system.

And the Cubs payroll went from 96M in 2006 to 106M in 2013. They tried to sign high value Free Agents (Cespedes, Darvish, Soler & Sanchez) the past 2 years.

This idea that the Cubs are intentionally throwing away seasons if fucking stupid. You equate the Cubs not signing Prince Fielder as them intentionally throwing away seasons. The Nationals, Mariners & Rangers were in on Fielder as well and also failed to sign him; were they intentionally throwing away their 2012 season? You equate the Cubs not breaking to the demands of Aramis Ramirez as them intentionally throwing away seasons. The Rangers wouldn't break to Josh Hamilton's demands, where they intentionally throwing away their 2013 season? The Cubs management fielded the best teams that they could given their payroll limitations expressed by ownership. In July, when the Cubs realized that they were not likely to make the playoffs, traded 3 guys with expiring contracts and 1 guy that netted them the Atlanta Braves #1 prospect from the previous year. They didn't "intentionally" throw away shit.

 

[CSF77]

I would call letting Pena and A-Ram go via F/A and plugging in an untested LaHair and Stewart as their replacements pretty much ass canning the year.

 

[mountsalami]

KB,

Their team payroll went from $78M in 2002 to $76M in 2008. They may have have turned the roster over, but they didn't intentionally throw away seasons and drastically cut payroll to focus only on the farm system.

And the Cubs payroll went from 96M in 2006 to 106M in 2013. They tried to sign high value Free Agents (Cespedes, Darvish, Soler & Sanchez) the past 2 years.

This idea that the Cubs are intentionally throwing away seasons if fucking stupid. You equate the Cubs not signing Prince Fielder as them intentionally throwing away seasons. The Nationals, Mariners & Rangers were in on Fielder as well and also failed to sign him; were they intentionally throwing away their 2012 season? You equate the Cubs not breaking to the demands of Aramis Ramirez as them intentionally throwing away seasons. The Rangers wouldn't break to Josh Hamilton's demands, where they intentionally throwing away their 2013 season? The Cubs management fielded the best teams that they could given their payroll limitations expressed by ownership. In July, when the Cubs realized that they were not likely to make the playoffs, traded 3 guys with expiring contracts and 1 guy that netted them the Atlanta Braves #1 prospect from the previous year. They didn't "intentionally" throw away shit.

Dumb.

 

[KBisBack!]

KB,

Their team payroll went from $78M in 2002 to $76M in 2008. They may have have turned the roster over, but they didn't intentionally throw away seasons and drastically cut payroll to focus only on the farm system.

No shit Sherlock.

That is exactly the point.

What the Giants did isn't close to what the Cubs are trying to do.

This idea that the Cubs are intentionally throwing away seasons if fucking stupid. You equate the Cubs not signing Prince Fielder as them intentionally throwing away seasons. The Nationals, Mariners & Rangers were in on Fielder as well and also failed to sign him; were they intentionally throwing away their 2012 season? You equate the Cubs not breaking to the demands of Aramis Ramirez as them intentionally throwing away seasons. The Rangers wouldn't break to Josh Hamilton's demands, where they intentionally throwing away their 2013 season? The Cubs management fielded the best teams that they could given their payroll limitations expressed by ownership. In July, when the Cubs realized that they were not likely to make the playoffs, traded 3 guys with expiring contracts and 1 guy that netted them the Atlanta Braves #1 prospect from the previous year. They didn't "intentionally" throw away shit.

Sorry it isn't stupid.

They made zero moves last offseason to field a legitimately competitive team.

The Mariners missed out of Fielder also last year, but they went and traded for Jesus Montero who everyone thought was a sure fire prospect to try and help improve their offense which was terrible.

They brought in an actual quality pitcher from Japan in Iwakuma.

They didn't come close to losing 100 games.

Not the same.

The Nationals when they didn't get Fielder resigned Adam LaRoche to a $10M deal. What FA did the Cubs pay $10M for last year? No one. They went out and made a big trade that landed them Gio Gonzalez. They didn't lose close to 100 games, heck they almost WON 100 games. They didn't just sit back and do nothing like the Cubs did.

The Rangers missed out on Fielder also, but then they went out and got Yu Darvish. They already had a team that had been to back to back World Series, not a team that needed drastic improvement and did nothing like the Cubs.

The Rangers didn't break to Hamilton's demands, but they went out and got Lance Berkman to fill in. Not fucking Ian Stewart like the Cubs tried to replace A-Ram with.

If you really think the #TheoSpankfest fielded the best team they could last year, you are even dumber than I have thought all along.

Face it, you can't answer the question posed in the thread.

Stop trying to strawman the argument to satisfy your fetish and face the reality that the Cubs have conned you into believing something almost impossible to do will be done.

 

[patg006]

No shit Sherlock.

That is exactly the point.

What the Giants did isn't close to what the Cubs are trying to do.



Sorry it isn't stupid.

They made zero moves last offseason to field a legitimately competitive team.

The Mariners missed out of Fielder also last year, but they went and traded for Jesus Montero who everyone thought was a sure fire prospect to try and help improve their offense which was terrible.

They brought in an actual quality pitcher from Japan in Iwakuma.

They didn't come close to losing 100 games.

Not the same.

The Nationals when they didn't get Fielder resigned Adam LaRoche to a $10M deal. What FA did the Cubs pay $10M for last year? No one. They went out and made a big trade that landed them Gio Gonzalez. They didn't lose close to 100 games, heck they almost WON 100 games. They didn't just sit back and do nothing like the Cubs did.

The Rangers missed out on Fielder also, but then they went out and got Yu Darvish. They already had a team that had been to back to back World Series, not a team that needed drastic improvement and did nothing like the Cubs.

The Rangers didn't break to Hamilton's demands, but they went out and got Lance Berkman to fill in. Not fucking Ian Stewart like the Cubs tried to replace A-Ram with.

If you really think the #TheoSpankfest fielded the best team they could last year, you are even dumber than I have thought all along.

Face it, you can't answer the question posed in the thread.

Stop trying to strawman the argument to satisfy your fetish and face the reality that the Cubs have conned you into believing something almost impossible to do will be done.

[video=youtube;JjcO6W9Z5P0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjcO6W9Z5P0[/video]

 

[chibears55]

when you have a team with very little in the minor league system to turn to and end of contract older veterans, you have two choices to make..
you can either rebuild your system and build up a younger core major league team OR basically ignore your system and go out and spend big money on FAs..

as we saw in 2010 and 2011, just spending money on FAs didnt quite work out to well and when they needed help from the system because of some injuries there was nothing available that could step in ..

so, these last 2 yrs the owner and pres. decided their going to tail back on payroll and rebuild the system while plugging in some younger core players on the major league roster..

it dont take a genius to know it going to take more then just 2 off seasons to establish a solid major league roster that will compete every year, when your basically doing it from what you had within and making deals for other prospects.

yes, it also dont take a genius to know that eventually their going to have to start signing FAs..


some of you on here though, sit and complain on every single thread about how cheap they are, how terrible epstein is and how some on here are idiots for not whining about how they lost 100 games last yr and could lose 90-100 games this year..

its not fun watching your favorite team lose, but it hasnt been fun for 4 yrs now not just the last two..
the first 2 yrs of it , they tried spending money and keeping the older core intact and it didnt work out mainly because they had a poor minor league system of players not ready or good enough to step in when needed to replace the older players or injuries.

now, management is making sure the system is stocked and their trying to build a younger core group on the major league level which is going to take a couple of years to establish..
your being blinded and or ignorant if you havent seen progress from the end of 2011 to where their at now at both the minor league level and major league team.

so , no im not happy with the losing but i do understand what needed to be done and i do see progress in what they have done so far and i expect even more progression after the draft, trade deadline , and this coming off season..

the biggest difference between the cubs and some of those other teams that took a long while between success is when they feel they have enough young core established and their ready to spend on the needed FAs they have to money to do so.. so, it wont / shouldnt take as long..

so, instead of constantly complaining and crying over what they have done or didnt do the last 2 yrs, why not take a step back and look at what they have established to date with the plan they went with and look forward to where they are going to be in the near future.

 

[SilenceS]

when you have a team with very little in the minor league system to turn to and end of contract older veterans, you have two choices to make..
you can either rebuild your system and build up a younger core major league team OR basically ignore your system and go out and spend big money on FAs..

as we saw in 2010 and 2011, just spending money on FAs didnt quite work out to well and when they needed help from the system because of some injuries there was nothing available that could step in ..

so, these last 2 yrs the owner and pres. decided their going to tail back on payroll and rebuild the system while plugging in some younger core players on the major league roster..

it dont take a genius to know it going to take more then just 2 off seasons to establish a solid major league roster that will compete every year, when your basically doing it from what you had within and making deals for other prospects.

yes, it also dont take a genius to know that eventually their going to have to start signing FAs..


some of you on here though, sit and complain on every single thread about how cheap they are, how terrible epstein is and how some on here are idiots for not whining about how they lost 100 games last yr and could lose 90-100 games this year..

its not fun watching your favorite team lose, but it hasnt been fun for 4 yrs now not just the last two..
the first 2 yrs of it , they tried spending money and keeping the older core intact and it didnt work out mainly because they had a poor minor league system of players not ready or good enough to step in when needed to replace the older players or injuries.

now, management is making sure the system is stocked and their trying to build a younger core group on the major league level which is going to take a couple of years to establish..
your being blinded and or ignorant if you havent seen progress from the end of 2011 to where their at now at both the minor league level and major league team.

so , no im not happy with the losing but i do understand what needed to be done and i do see progress in what they have done so far and i expect even more progression after the draft, trade deadline , and this coming off season..

the biggest difference between the cubs and some of those other teams that took a long while between success is when they feel they have enough young core established and their ready to spend on the needed FAs they have to money to do so.. so, it wont / shouldnt take as long..

so, instead of constantly complaining and crying over what they have done or didnt do the last 2 yrs, why not take a step back and look at what they have established to date with the plan they went with and look forward to where they are going to be in the near future.

Im not a doom or gloom type guy but the only thing established from Theo is Rizzo. Wood, maybe, but I feel you can find a pitcher of that type every year. The rest are in the minors and dont guarantee anything. I understand building a farm but none of them are guaranteed. The Cubs are going to have to sign some people but the odds of the first wave of prospects making it is very low. People who are banking on Soler, Baez, and Almora all making it should take a step back because its highly unlikely all 3 hit or even 2. I hope all 3 do because then the Cubs would be cooking with fire, but they have a ways to go.

 

[mountsalami]

when you have a team with very little in the minor league system to turn to and end of contract older veterans, you have two choices to make..
you can either rebuild your system and build up a younger core major league team OR basically ignore your system and go out and spend big money on FAs..

Wrong. Which makes the rest of post useless.

You have been provided facts and data that doing BOTH is far more successful than doing OR.

The team clearly has the resources to do BOTH, for the hundredth time, and no one has suggested buying high priced free agents to fill in the numerous holes in the ML roster.

It would be nice to add a superstar or two since they can more than afford it.

I guess having the supposed "great scouting department" was a waste of money since tanking seasons only challenges them less having to pick high in the draft.

 

[mountsalami]

I understand building a farm but none of them are guaranteed.

I would like a list of teams (not from you Silence because I know you know where I'm going with this) that have stopped scouting and devleopment because the ML team on the field has broken the bank, and as a result, shut down the farm system.

 

[KBisBack!]

when you have a team with very little in the minor league system to turn to and end of contract older veterans, you have two choices to make..
you can either rebuild your system and build up a younger core major league team OR basically ignore your system and go out and spend big money on FAs..

100% wrong.

You have THREE choices.

You can also try and field a competitive team, including spending on FA while building up the farm system like most of the other teams do.

Only the morons believe it has to be an either or choice. You don't want to be a part of that group.

Everyone is rubbing themselves raw over the current flavor of the moment on how to build a team, the Texas Rangers. Yes they have a highly rated farm system, but they also built it up while spending money on the major league team, including big FA signings in Adrian Beltre and Yu Darvish. When they missed out on Zach Greinke and Prince Fielder, they didn't just sit back and say "Oh well, we gave it a shot" like the Cubs have done and the idiots slurp up, they went out and got Yu Darvish and Lance Berkman.

the biggest difference between the cubs and some of those other teams that took a long while between success is when they feel they have enough young core established and their ready to spend on the needed FAs they have to money to do so.. so, it wont / shouldnt take as long..

Wrong.

The biggest difference between the people who are looking at things factually and realistically, and the idiots like yourself, is not the money to add to the core when it is developed, it is that it takes a very long time to develop that core.

The Indians of the 90's did a decent job of keeping their core together, it just took a long time to put it together.

The present day Phillies have done a very nice job of keeping their core together, it just took a long time to put it together.

And neither time was able to keep that steady stream of prospects coming through their system because it is really, really hard to sustain that level of production from the farm system.

All things you wish to ignore.

so, instead of constantly complaining and crying over what they have done or didnt do the last 2 yrs, why not take a step back and look at what they have established to date with the plan they went with and look forward to where they are going to be in the near future.

Because history and the facts provided to you show that there is an overwhelming chance that the near future will be no different than the present.

So instead of burying your head in the sand and buying the fairy tale you have been sold as fact, maybe you should listen to the facts presented to you on how long and unlikely this process is to lead to the reward you feel in inevitable.

 

[CSF77]

Here is an example of doing both: Soler has been very successful at Daytona and could be on the team in 2014. RF is performing and is not killing the team on the short term. So this is a situation where using short term F/A is working. Take 3B: they decided to let A-Ram go for a pick which became Pierce Johnson. Now Johnson's success with tie into that decision. Now they did not have a answer at 3B that year. So they traded to get a injured/unproven Stewart. They had no top ended 3B prospects in the tank. Vitters was becoming questionable as a prospect for years going into the decision process. The answer was to trade Dempster for another questionable 3B lottery pick and to plug a journeyman UI into a platoon at 3B.... That is bubblegum mechanics. The solution would have been to extend A-Ram vs jerk him around then toss tge Arb so they could get Pierce. But no. This just ties to them throwing seasons away.

 

[Franko725]

Everyone is rubbing themselves raw over the current flavor of the moment on how to build a team, the Texas Rangers. Yes they have a highly rated farm system, but they also built it up while spending money on the major league team, including big FA signings in Adrian Beltre and Yu Darvish. When they missed out on Zach Greinke and Prince Fielder, they didn't just sit back and say "Oh well, we gave it a shot" like the Cubs have done and the idiots slurp up, they went out and got Yu Darvish and Lance Berkman.

As you like to say...WRONG.

The Cubs made a run at Sanchez last winter. While it appears that he was merely using the Cubs to get a better contract from the Tigers, they made the attempt none the less. When that did not work out, the Cubs did not just sit back and not sign one a starting pitcher in FA. They went out and signed Jackson. While he has not panned out so far, at least they tried to get someone that would be a boost to the rotation. Or is that not what you were implying when commenting about the Rowand and Zito signings by the Giants?

 

[chibears55]

Im not a doom or gloom type guy but the only thing established from Theo is Rizzo. Wood, maybe, but I feel you can find a pitcher of that type every year. The rest are in the minors and dont guarantee anything. I understand building a farm but none of them are guaranteed.

i wasnt saying just what they have brought in themselves, i had also mentioned what they already had from within that being used to establish a core..
castro, samardzija, castillo..

People who are banking on Soler, Baez, and Almora all making it should take a step back because its highly unlikely all 3 hit or even 2.

i understand you cant bank on just a few younger players to hit, thats why they are trying to bring in quantities with their trades to have more of a selection or chances of younger players to hit..

and yes, as i said it not going to take 2 yrs with the dirsection they chose.. its a process

The team clearly has the resources to do BOTH, for the hundredth time, and no one has suggested buying high priced free agents to fill in the numerous holes in the ML roster

i didnt say they cant or shouldnt do it both ways.. i said they are simply establishing a system and younger core first before they spend on key FAs where needed.
You can also try and field a competitive team, including spending on FA while building up the farm system like most of the other teams do.

You can also try and field a competitive team, including spending on FA while building up the farm system like most of the other teams do.

Only the morons believe it has to be an either or choice. You don't want to be a part of that group

.

again, didnt say myself they couldnt or shouldnt do it both ways.. just saying they decided to go in the direction of first establishing a system and bringing in younger core players from within and trades.. the FAs they signed last year along with some of their own older players were used to flip on bringing in quantities for the system.. we dont know what their route is for this coming trade deadline, until we see what they actually do we cant comment on it good or bad..
we dont know what moves they will make this offseason, maybe they surprise us all and sign a couple decent FAs that will stick , but again until then we cant assume their not going to do something positive for the team..

like i said you all can keep complaining and whining over what process their taking..
Fact is they are in a better position now in both their minor league system and major league level then they were after the 2010 and 2011 season and until we see how it ends up there no point is pissing and moaning about a future we have no idea of..

 

[mountsalami]

As you like to say...WRONG.

The Cubs made a run at Sanchez last winter. While it appears that he was merely using the Cubs to get a better contract from the Tigers, they made the attempt none the less. When that did not work out, the Cubs did not just sit back and not sign one a starting pitcher in FA. They went out and signed Jackson. While he has not panned out so far, at least they tried to get someone that would be a boost to the rotation. Or is that not what you were implying when commenting about the Rowand and Zito signings by the Giants?

Not a good comparison because it doesn't fit my agenda.

I suppose paying a pitcher that has a career ERA over 4, thirteen million per season, is hard to find.

Quite the contrary, those said pitchers can be had at a discount.

Jackson signing only demonstrated their further stupidity @ Command Central, and only further proves the validity of Boy Blunder not having any clue of how to construct a team on a "budget".

 

[CSF77]

An example of using F/A in the future: Say Jackson just flops out at AAA. Szczur looks like a 4th OF going forward. Almora loses this year and he is looking like a 2016 at best answer. Now this is not far fetched to believe. At this point the smart choice would to be: spend on a F/A. Say they get Jacoby and use him as a lead off. Not depending on any power numbers. Now how does this affect the team going forward? 2014 Sori is in his last year. Schierholtz/Hairston last year. This opens up LF/RF. who do they have internally? Soler (doing both). LF depends on Szczur. If he doesn't appear to be a full time solution the next answer would be F/A. More on the short term with Almora but not depending on Almora's development. These are just sound decisions going forward.

 

[Franko725]

Not a good comparison because it doesn't fit my agenda.

I suppose paying a pitcher that has a career ERA over 4, thirteen million per season, is hard to find.

Quite the contrary, those said pitchers can be had at a discount.

Jackson signing only demonstrated their further stupidity @ Command Central, and only further proves the validity of Boy Blunder not having any clue of how to construct a team on a "budget".

So, no effort equals bitching from you all.

Attempting to get one of the top FA pitchers available last year (not a good class, but still) still equals bitching from you all.

Makes a ton of sense.

 

[KBisBack!]

Or is that not what you were implying when commenting about the Rowand and Zito signings by the Giants?

Not at all.

Zito was one of the top available FA's at the time.

Jackson's deal looks like big money, but that is more because salaries have boomed.

Zito was a shot at getting a legitimate #1 starter.

Jackson was signing a #3-#4 starter.

And where is your list of the numerous teams that have been able to throw away a couple seasons and have it turn shortly into a long run of competitive, playoff baseball??

You don't have an answer, because there is none so instead you want to whine about a minor point that someone tried to strawman from the original topic.

 

[mountsalami]

So, no effort equals bitching from you all.

Attempting to get one of the top FA pitchers available last year (not a good class, but still) still equals bitching from you all.

Makes a ton of sense.

Check the team's record and Jackson's peripherials from his past and this season and ask your idiots that do have control over the team why.

I didn't read or hear about a "bidding war" over Jackson's services.