A couple throw away seasons turning into sustained long term success...........

Franko725

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If this, but that, and this, blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.



The FACTS provided show realistically that is how long it will take.



Translation.....

I don't have an answer to the question but I will just whine and cry some more to try and deflect from the fact that I have no answer.

Once again, step up to the plate big boy or admit you are not equal to the task.

Already stated that there are no teams that throw away seasons and completely rebuild from the farm system. Keep on trolling buddy.

Now, answer my question as to when I stated that losing 100 games was acceptable?

At the point of the trade deadline though, you are either buyers or sellers. When you are not in the race for the playoffs, you trade away your players that are not in your future plans for pieces that might fit in the future. So, when they traded away the good players that they could to get something in return for them, of course they were going to get worse. Is that so damn hard to understand?

Hey, don't look now though, the Cubs are 5-2 in their last seven. I notice you haven't talked about them being better lately since they changed up some things in the bullpen. Suppose that doesn't matter though. You know, the front office making changes to the roster and all.
 

Franko725

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pat, sorry you are being completely unrealistic actually looking at the historical facts.

You are supposed to just blindly believe everything that is spoon fed to you and throw a temper tantrum at those whose use actual facts and historical data to support that what is being promised is completely unrealistic.

I mean fairy tales come true all the time don't they?

You mean like calling everyone that doesn't completely agree with your opinion an idiot, and telling them to shut up? How about you stick to talking baseball and stop with the personal attacks? Or is that too much for you?
 

KBisBack!

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Already stated that there are no teams that throw away seasons and completely rebuild from the farm system. Keep on trolling buddy.

Now, answer my question as to when I stated that losing 100 games was acceptable?

But yet you will whine and cry and cry somemore everytime that someone says the current process is unacceptable.

So you are defending what you say is unacceptable??

Nice job.





Hey, don't look now though, the Cubs are 5-2 in their last seven. I notice you haven't talked about them being better lately since they changed up some things in the bullpen. Suppose that doesn't matter though. You know, the front office making changes to the roster and all.

Wow!!!!

5-2 in a whole 7 game stretch???

My mistake. You clearly have proved me wrong.

The last seven games clearly outweighs the previous 190 games or so.
 

KBisBack!

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You mean like calling everyone that doesn't completely agree with your opinion an idiot, and telling them to shut up? How about you stick to talking baseball and stop with the personal attacks? Or is that too much for you?

I was entirely talking baseball by providing the FACTS on how what the Cubs are promising has almost never been done.

You didnt like that baseball talk and whine and cried and told me how stupid I was being by pointing out the facts.

You can easily return to the baseball talk and respond to the original post that you have been asked to address multiple times now and refused to acknowledge.

Or is that too much for you??

Clearly it has been.
 

Franko725

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I was entirely talking baseball by providing the FACTS on how what the Cubs are promising has almost never been done.

You didnt like that baseball talk and whine and cried and told me how stupid I was being by pointing out the facts.

You can easily return to the baseball talk and respond to the original post that you have been asked to address multiple times now and refused to acknowledge.

Or is that too much for you??

Clearly it has been.


Great post after your previous response to me answering again the main topic of this post. You really are amazing.
 

KBisBack!

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Great post after your previous response to me answering again the main topic of this post. You really are amazing.

The entire main topic of this thread is nothing but baseball talk.

It is only when slurpers like yourself changed off the baseball topic you had no answer or more likely an answer you didn't wish to give that has sidetracked the thread.

My repeated requests to address the original topic have been repeated ignored with more and more whining.

Again, please address how many teams have throw away seasons, drastically cut payroll like the Cubs have, and within a 4-5 year period turned the franchise into a long term, sustained competitive baseball franchise like you and many others believe is right around the corner.

This is like the 5th or 6th time this question has been presented to you.

It isn't a hard question to answer, but then again it appears to be too hard for you to answer.
 

The Bandit

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this thread :facepalm: zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

Franko725

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Post #61...you know, the one that you responded to already.
 

KBisBack!

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Post #61...you know, the one that you responded to already.

Gotcha.

Post #61 where you agree what I say is factual correct but then defended the entire process that was just shown to be factually not the best thing to do.

Gotcha.

Thanks for clearing that up.
 

KBisBack!

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Even freaking dabs knows the facts presented in this thread are too overwhelming to address and he'd piss his diaper if I use a semi colon instead of a colon.
 

dabynsky

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Even freaking dabs knows the facts presented in this thread are too overwhelming to address and he'd piss his diaper if I use a semi colon instead of a colon.
You've defined the question to the point where the answer is no team has managed to not be competitive for a few years and then within a couple of seasons have sustained success. Congratulations.

There are teams that have managed to tank a couple of seasons and within five years be winners, but most of those teams lacked the financial resources to keep the team in place long term. Which again is why this question is answered by its setup to be answered in the negative. In baseball there is a finite amount of players with talent, finite amount of money and finite amount of wins. With 30 teams competing for each of those resources sustained success is hard to find for any franchise. However, I have yet to see a team that was competitive for a 5-8 year stretch without significant contribution from the farm system.

This is where you say your classic line of do both, and that is where I think you sadly mistake my position and many others. I have never said that the Cubs should never buy free agents. The question has always been how much resources do they shift from the present to the future. Your answer has always been to shift resources from the future to the present to increase the chances of making the postseason even if it is only .1% or 1%, I forget what you exact line was. My answer has been that there are times where sacrificing that marginally increase in playoff chance for more "lottery tickets", a real misnomer that perhaps we ought to discuss later since I don't want to derail this topic, makes sense.

Now that I have answered your question with no, I would like to pose my own question to you KB. The Cubs heading into the Theo takeover had the following situation. They cut payroll by 40 million dollars during Theo's takeover, which as we all have agreed is not a Theo decision. They had no impact talent in the minors within three years of significantly contribruting to the big league club. And they were a team coming off of its second consecutive losing season. Can you name a team with the same situation of cutting payroll and no signifcant farm contributions during that time frame that made the postseason within 3 years much less a sustained period of success?
 
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KBisBack!

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You've defined the question to the point where the answer is no team has managed to not be competitive for a few years and then within a couple of seasons have sustained success. Congratulations.

And my definition of the question is the exact promise made by ownership and management that you defend as the best choice.

There are teams that have managed to tank a couple of seasons and within five years be winners,

Please show some examples instead of just providing broadly made statements with zero substantiated evidence to support the statement.



The question has always been how much resources do they shift from the present to the future. Your answer has always been to shift resources from the future to the present to increase the chances of making the postseason even if it is only .1% or 1%, I forget what you exact line was. My answer has been that there are times where sacrificing that marginally increase in playoff chance for more "lottery tickets", a real misnomer that perhaps we ought to discuss later since I don't want to derail this topic, makes sense.

100% wrong.

You don't even understand what you are whining and crying against. Awesome.

I have never said once that one penny be diverted from building the farm system to the major league team.

Sorry that you are too ignorant to grasp what is being presented to you.

I have consistently stated that the Cubs should spend more on the major league team.

They spent $12M on the minor league system in 2011 and $134M on payroll and somehow that is less of an effort than the $10M and $105M spent of payroll this year??

Really??

Lets not even look at the facts that revenue is higher now than 2011 either. Don't want to confuse the topic too much.

Now that I have answered your question with no, I would like to pose my own question to you KB. The Cubs heading into the Theo takeover had the following situation. They cut payroll by 40 million dollars during Theo's takeover, which as we all have agreed is not a Theo decision.

They didn't need to cut payroll.

Sorry, but that minor detail makes your entire question irrelevant.

They had no impact talent in the minors within three years of significantly contribruting to the big league club. And they were a team coming off of its second consecutive losing season. Can you name a team with the same situation of cutting payroll and no signifcant farm contributions during that time frame that made the postseason within 3 years much less a sustained period of success?

No I can't name a team.

That was the original question since you obviously weren't paying attention.

So seeing as we agree on the question, please answer why you think the Cubs can accomplish what we seem to agree on that no other team has been able to accomplish?

You know, the original point of the thread and all.
 

The Bandit

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You've defined the question to the point where the answer is no team has managed to not be competitive for a few years and then within a couple of seasons have sustained success. Congratulations.

There are teams that have managed to tank a couple of seasons and within five years be winners, but most of those teams lacked the financial resources to keep the team in place long term. Which again is why this question is answered by its setup to be answered in the negative. In baseball there is a finite amount of players with talent, finite amount of money and finite amount of wins. With 30 teams competing for each of those resources sustained success is hard to find for any franchise. However, I have yet to see a team that was competitive for a 5-8 year stretch without significant contribution from the farm system.

This is where you say your classic line of do both, and that is where I think you sadly mistake my position and many others. I have never said that the Cubs should never buy free agents. The question has always been how much resources do they shift from the present to the future. Your answer has always been to shift resources from the future to the present to increase the chances of making the postseason even if it is only .1% or 1%, I forget what you exact line was. My answer has been that there are times where sacrificing that marginally increase in playoff chance for more "lottery tickets", a real misnomer that perhaps we ought to discuss later since I don't want to derail this topic, makes sense.

Now that I have answered your question with no, I would like to pose my own question to you KB. The Cubs heading into the Theo takeover had the following situation. They cut payroll by 40 million dollars during Theo's takeover, which as we all have agreed is not a Theo decision. They had no impact talent in the minors within three years of significantly contribruting to the big league club. And they were a team coming off of its second consecutive losing season. Can you name a team with the same situation of cutting payroll and no signifcant farm contributions during that time frame that made the postseason within 3 years much less a sustained period of success?

Best post in this thread thus far, I'm sure we will receive more whining and "facts" along with bitching. And him attempting to call me boy, or son as if he holds any bearing over me.
 

dabynsky

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And my definition of the question is the exact promise made by ownership and management that you defend as the best choice.
In this situation I understand the rationale. If I had the choice of maintaining a 140 million dollar payroll or 130 dollar payroll with the same resources devoted to building the farm system I would take that route. Unfortunately it is not my money spent.


Please show some examples instead of just providing broadly made statements with zero substantiated evidence to support the statement.
The 2003 Marlins were built largely on the talent acquired through selling off present for future after 97 and a couple of horrific, worse than current Cubs, seasons. They had a couple of middling seasons afterwards and Loria, being a cheap bastard, blew the thing up which has lead to the Fish in their current situation.

However, given that I conceded your question I figured you would accept it without examples. My mistake that has been corrected.
100% wrong.

You don't even understand what you are whining and crying against. Awesome.

I have never said once that one penny be diverted from building the farm system to the major league team.

Sorry that you are too ignorant to grasp what is being presented to you.

I have consistently stated that the Cubs should spend more on the major league team.

They spent $12M on the minor league system in 2011 and $134M on payroll is less of an effort than the $10M and $105M spent of payroll this year.

Really??

Lets not even look at the facts that revenue is higher now than 2011 either. Don't want to confuse the topic too much.
A lot here to take on but lets start with your statement of 100% false. While you want to spend the same amount on the farm system the moves that you and others of your ilk have suggested has taken away from the farm system either through loss of draft picks or hanging onto players during lost seasons. That is taking away from the future whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

As far as the payroll goes by all accounts that is a decision from the business side. Whether that is right or not is not my call, and if you want to call Ricketts Scrooge McDuck or worse I can't stop you. But the question is the facts we have in front of us. The baseball operations side of the franchise has less money to work at the major league level, and that has usual meant bad things for the major league roster.


They didn't need to cut payroll.

Sorry, but that minor detail makes your entire question irrelevant.



No I can't name a team.

That was the original question since you obviously weren't paying attention.

So seeing as we agree on the question, please answer why you think the Cubs can accomplish what we seem to agree on that no other team has been able to accomplish?

You know, the original point of the thread and all.

I answered your question, and therefore I think it is more than fair to ask my own. The person in charge of money is Ricketts. I have never defended Ricketts as being blameless the past two seasons. There are two things that an owner is in charge of in my book. Those two things are giving enough resources to the baseball operations, which is in question now, and hire the right baseball people to be in charge of those resources. You have been questioning everyone in regards to leadership of the Cubs, and so I think it is more than fair to answer the question of any baseball people in history to have fixed the situation that the organzization faced at the time of Theo's takeover in three seasons (and by fixed I mean a postseason appearance since we both agree that is what counts for a team).

You seem to lack an aswer to these historical facts. Therefore, Ricketts, and/or Zell, is to blame since no team in history has managed to make the postseason after three years given the situation the Cubs faced, which has not been disputed by your, and no one in charge of baseball operations could have succeed for what you have wanted.
 

Willrust

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Washington Nationals had back to back 100 loss seasons not long ago. They have built mainly through their system while picking up 1 high $ free agent (and that one hasn't been working out great). When they acquired Gio Gonzalez, they did so through prospects. BTW, they also went through 3 different owners in a matter of 5 years.
 

Boobaby1

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Washington Nationals had back to back 100 loss seasons not long ago. They have built mainly through their system while picking up 1 high $ free agent (and that one hasn't been working out great). When they acquired Gio Gonzalez, they did so through prospects. BTW, they also went through 3 different owners in a matter of 5 years.

Of course, through their struggles, they were able to obtain Strasburg and Harper who flew through the system. My best guess is they will probably be a little better than Almora and Appel/Gray. I could be wrong though.
 

dabynsky

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Of course, through their struggles, they were able to obtain Strasburg and Harper who flew through the system. My best guess is they will probably be a little better than Almora and Appel/Gray. I could be wrong though.

Well if we are going by "tanked" seasons than Almora wouldn't count since his draft pick was based on a Jim Hendry led team the year before. Unless Jim Hendry was tanking the 2011 season, but as I've understood your argument Theo Epstein is the first President/GM to ever tank a season in charge of a "big market" club.
 

Boobaby1

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Well if we are going by "tanked" seasons than Almora wouldn't count since his draft pick was based on a Jim Hendry led team the year before. Unless Jim Hendry was tanking the 2011 season, but as I've understood your argument Theo Epstein is the first President/GM to ever tank a season in charge of a "big market" club.

Was it? Or was it a Rickett's team that told Hendry to start cutting payroll? Payroll went down 10 million from 2010 to 2011.

Lee was gone, A-Ram leaving, Z and Dempster with one year left and he signed Pena to a 1 year deal.

Sounds like the cutting of payroll to me way before Theo even got here.
 

dabynsky

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Was it? Or was it a Rickett's team that told Hendry to start cutting payroll? Payroll went down 10 million from 2010 to 2011.

Lee was gone, A-Ram leaving, Z and Dempster with one year left and he signed Pena to a 1 year deal.

Sounds like the cutting of payroll to me way before Theo even got here.
Carlos Pena was supposed to replace Derrek Lee, that was a tanking move? Zambrano, Dempster, and Aramis Ramirez played the entire 2011 season with the team also. Just trying to understand what constitutes tanking multiple seasons and not. Seems your argument that the tanking occurred prior to the Theo takeover.

:thinking: so Ricketts is to blame...
 

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