A couple throw away seasons turning into sustained long term success...........

[chibears55]

Lee was gone, A-Ram leaving, Z and Dempster with one year left and he signed Pena to a 1 year deal.

Sounds like the cutting of payroll to me way before Theo even got here.

payroll went down after 2011 simply by 2 moves .. dumping lee salary for pena which they split the 10 mil into 2 seasons and garza cost them way less then lilly those 2 moves are what made their payroll lower by 10 mil..

not quite moves that would be considered an owner telling a GM to cut payroll.. sorry

aram, Z, and dempster were still part of the team when epstein took over

 

[KBisBack!]

The 2003 Marlins were built largely on the talent acquired through selling off present for future after 97 and a couple of horrific, worse than current Cubs, seasons. They had a couple of middling seasons afterwards and Loria, being a cheap bastard, blew the thing up which has lead to the Fish in their current situation.

And that was ONE year of success. Not the sustained long term success the slurpers think is inevitable

A lot here to take on but lets start with your statement of 100% false. While you want to spend the same amount on the farm system the moves that you and others of your ilk have suggested has taken away from the farm system either through loss of draft picks or hanging onto players during lost seasons. That is taking away from the future whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Wrong.

Your agenda ignores the fact that the moves of me and 'my ilk' suggest would substantially improve the major league team while you assume the lottery tickets brought in will be winning numbers.

You assume that Aroldys Vizcaino will end up being a more productive major league pitcher than Paul Mahom despite the facts that he is coming off major arm surgery and has yet to throw a competitive pitch for the Cubs organization.

You assume that Christian Villenueva will be a better major league player despite the fact he is barely adequate at the AA level.

Yet you want to trumpet that as progress. Really? Exactly how so?

You seem to lack an aswer to these historical facts. Therefore, Ricketts, and/or Zell, is to blame since no team in history has managed to make the postseason after three years given the situation the Cubs faced, which has not been disputed by your, and no one in charge of baseball operations could have succeed for what you have wanted.

Blah fucking blah.

Exactly how many times do I have to say that I blame Ricketts as much as the #TheoSpankfest before you get it through your idiot skull?

It has been a total failure by ownership and management. Yet again, there has been enough suckiness for everyone to take blame for.

 

[KBisBack!]

aram, Z, and dempster were still part of the team when epstein took over

And how many games did that trio play for the Cubs after Theo took over???

16.

But surely that isn't Theo's fault, right?

 

[KBisBack!]

Carlos Pena was supposed to replace Derrek Lee, that was a tanking move? Zambrano, Dempster, and Aramis Ramirez played the entire 2011 season with the team also. Just trying to understand what constitutes tanking multiple seasons and not. Seems your argument that the tanking occurred prior to the Theo takeover.

Carlos Pena was a much more legimate replacement at 1B than a 28 year old career minor leaguer that took over at 1B last year in LaHair.

The Tampa Rays which you and the other slurpers have argued is the smarter way to run a franchise, signed Pena to play 1B last year.

The efforts made prior to Theo taking over were much more substantial than the moves made the last two years.

I see you also left out the trade for Matt Garza as well. Guess that wasn't making an effort to make the team better or anything, right?

 

[dabynsky]

And that was ONE year of success. Not the sustained long term success the slurpers think is inevitable

And I said as much at the outset, but what to ignore what I actually said.

Wrong.

Your agenda ignores the fact that the moves of me and 'my ilk' suggest would substantially improve the major league team while you assume the lottery tickets brought in will be winning numbers.

You assume that Aroldys Vizcaino will end up being a more productive major league pitcher than Paul Mahom despite the facts that he is coming off major arm surgery and has yet to throw a competitive pitch for the Cubs organization.

You assume that Christian Villenueva will be a better major league player despite the fact he is barely adequate at the AA level.

Yet you want to trumpet that as progress. Really? Exactly how so?

Those are moves that took away from the future to the present. As I have said repeatedly the cost is not nothing for the moves you have suggested. You can debate the relative worth of each move, but you can't simply wave your hand and say that these moves had zero impact on the future.

Blah fucking blah.

Exactly how many times do I have to say that I blame Ricketts as much as the #TheoSpankfest before you get it through your idiot skull?

It has been a total failure by ownership and management. Yet again, there has been enough suckiness for everyone to take blame for.

Who is to blame for the decrease in major league payroll?

If the answer to above question is Ricketts than I don't know what historical facts you point to for a team being able to improve the major league roster without either increase in payroll or minor league talent, and really most teams that have succeed after several non-competitive years had both. So I've answered your question. I am still waiting for you to answer mine.

 

[dabynsky]

Carlos Pena was a much more legimate replacement at 1B than a 28 year old career minor leaguer that took over at 1B last year in LaHair.

The Tampa Rays which you and the other slurpers have argued is the smarter way to run a franchise, signed Pena to play 1B last year.

The efforts made prior to Theo taking over were much more substantial than the moves made the last two years.

I see you also left out the trade for Matt Garza as well. Guess that wasn't making an effort to make the team better or anything, right?

So by your response you agree that the 2011 Cubs was not a tanked season and therefore the pick of Albert Almora was not the result of tanking?

 

[KBisBack!]

Washington Nationals had back to back 100 loss seasons not long ago.

And they also had another 26 years missing the playoffs before those back to back 100 loss seasons you seem to have conveniently left out.

Whoops.

BTW, they also went through 3 different owners in a matter of 5 years.

And yet you posed the argument that the Cubs having three different owners in 5 years made it impossible for them to be successful, yet now you point out the Nationals were able to do it.

Hmmm......

 

[KBisBack!]

So by your response you agree that the 2011 Cubs was not a tanked season and therefore the pick of Albert Almora was not the result of tanking?

It takes more than the results to equal tanking.

There was a legitimate effort to make the team better, the results were not what anyone was hoping for, but at least they made a legitimate effort to bringing in quality players.

The following offseason there could have also been legitimate efforts made to make the team better without giving up the Albert Almora pick which many seem to think is the key to the entire franchise. The could have signed Prince Fielder and Albert Pujols and still kept that pick. Not that in any way would have been feasible, but just used to illustrate how bringing in talent wouldn't have had much impact on the building of the organization that most have been brainwashed to believe.

 

[Boobaby1]

not quite moves that would be considered an owner telling a GM to cut payroll.. sorry

Seeing as Jim Hendry was the King at laying out lengthy overpaid/underperforming contracts, why was Pena tied to a only a 1 year deal then? Seems to me that he would have at least been on a 3 year deal considering that was Hendry's so-called SOP, and of course, I'm not sure why Hendry would have left money on the table with a chance to improve the team if he indeed had every chance to. If there was 10 million available, why didn't he spend it?

It appears to me that Hendry was letting the contracts play themselves out, not signing anyone long term, thus doing his version of a rebuild. But that is just my opinion.

 

[KBisBack!]

Those are moves that took away from the future to the present. As I have said repeatedly the cost is not nothing for the moves you have suggested. You can debate the relative worth of each move, but you can't simply wave your hand and say that these moves had zero impact on the future.

But you can wave your hand and say that these moves would have been a big setback for the franchise despite no statistical support??

If or when Vizcaino or Villenueva become regular, at least league average major league players you can say it took away from the future. Because retaining Dempster and Maholm would have left the Cubs with regular, at least league average major league players.

You continue to assume the lottery tickets will pay off.

 

[The Bandit]

Seeing as Jim Hendry was the King at laying out lengthy overpaid/underperforming contracts, why was Pena tied to a only a 1 year deal then? Seems to me that he would have at least been on a 3 year deal considering that was Hendry's so-called SOP, and of course, I'm not sure why Hendry would have left money on the table with a chance to improve the team if he indeed had every chance to. If there was 10 million available, why didn't he spend it?

It appears to me that Hendry was letting the contracts play themselves out, not signing anyone long term, thus doing his version of a rebuild. But that is just my opinion.

Yep, pretty much what was happening either way was a rebuilt, it was inevitable. But ya know some just can't see a big market team go into rebuilding mode, it just never happens!

 

[chibears55]

And how many games did that trio play for the Cubs after Theo took over???

16.

But surely that isn't Theo's fault, right?

got nothing to do with what was being discussed.. thank you

 

[The Bandit]

got nothing to do with what was being discussed.. thank you

Of course it does, you idiot.

 

[KBisBack!]

got nothing to do with what was being discussed.. thank you

Then why did you bring it up they were all on the team when Theo took over?

Thank you.

 

[The Bandit]

Then why did you bring it up they were all on the team when Theo took over?

Thank you.

You should listen to your sig, and take some advice.

 

[chibears55]

It appears to me that Hendry was letting the contracts play themselves out, not signing anyone long term, thus doing his version of a rebuild. But that is just my opinion

.

if his way of rebuilding was to split a 10 mil contract into 2 seasons,, well do i even need to state my opinion on that..
hendry was a players GM, he just didnt appear to me like a GM who would just allow a players contract to run out..
he was also a veteran only type GM and didnt seem to care much for younger players, thus having very little to fall back on in the system..

i liked hendry and most of the moves he made, so im not going to diss him..
as all new owners, pres,, gms do they go with their own guy...

 

[chibears55]

Then why did you bring it up they were all on the team when Theo took over?

Thank you.

because Boo was saying that the payroll was being reduced before epstein took over and mentioned these players as being gone

thank you.. end of discussion

 

[The Bandit]

because Boo was saying that the payroll was being reduced before epstein took over and mentioned these players as being gone

thank you.. end of discussion

This forum has gone so far down since they got here.

 

[Boobaby1]

.

if his way of rebuilding was to split a 10 mil contract into 2 seasons,, well do i even need to state my opinion on that..
hendry was a players GM, he just didnt appear to me like a GM who would just allow a players contract to run out..
he was also a veteran only type GM and didnt seem to care much for younger players, thus having very little to fall back on in the system..

i liked hendry and most of the moves he made, so im not going to diss him..
as all new owners, pres,, gms do they go with their own guy...

Let me re-phrase. In my opinion, he would let them play themselves out or trade them at the deadline like he did with Lilly, Maddux, Lee and others.

I doubt very seriously that he would have given Zambrano an extension, and he could have done no worse than obtaining Volstad. A-Ram he possibly would have possibly extended. Dempster, I don't know.

As far as being a veteran GM, I don't buy into that. Throughout his tenure, he consistently did both of having young rookie players or Arb-eligible players to go along with free agent veterans. Just go back and look starting with the 03' team.

 

[The Bandit]

Let me re-phrase. In my opinion, he would let them play themselves out or trade them at the deadline like he did with Lilly, Maddux, Lee and others.

I doubt very seriously that he would have given Zambrano an extension, and he could have done no worse than obtaining Volstad. A-Ram he possibly would have possibly extended. Dempster, I don't know.

As far as being a veteran GM, I don't buy into that. Throughout his tenure, he consistently did both of having young rookie players or Arb-eligible players to go along with free agent veterans. Just go back and look starting with the 03' team.

So are you telling me that Doughnut Jim >Jed Hoyer?