A couple throw away seasons turning into sustained long term success...........

[KBisBack!]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

You clearly have no idea what the discussion is even about but insist on arguing every point being made??

And then want to whine about how the new people aren't adding any content to the forum?

Really??

 

[KBisBack!]

Maybe you can tell me what specific example you are looking for. I post an example, you say "No, they weren't good enough prior to rebuilding (only won 1 WS)." I post another example, you say "No, they weren't consistent contenders (only won 2 WS)." I post another example, you say "No, they were bad for too long prior to becoming good (won only 3 WS)." I post another example, you say "No, it took them 8 years to be good (only won 1 WS).

Seriously??

On page 6 of the topic you want me to start over??

And I am the problem here??

I clearly stated in the OP that people believe that Theo and Co will turn this franchise around, building the team using only the farm system to develop the core into a consistent contender in less than 5 years.

I have provided many examples of how that process doesn't happen all that often and when it does takes a considerably longer period of time than the less than 5 years many people are believing will happen.

Winning 1 World Series is a great season. It doesn't make you a consistent contender though.

Winning 2 World Series is even better, but when those are the only 2 years you make the playoffs in a pretty extended period of time, that doesn't make you a consistent contender.

I am not sure what is so hard for you to understand.

Cubs have been terrible for over 100 years, and you want them to scrap their rebuilding plan after 1.25 seasons. You say "I never expected the Cubs to lose 100 games this year!", then you say "Why do people expect Theo to turn things around so fast? Its never been done before!"

I never expected a team with the overwhelming resources the Cubs have to lose 100 games in a season if they really put the effort into winning.

Anyone with an IQ over about 50 should be able to understand that point.

And yes I do say why do people expect the turn around to happen so fast, because it hasn't happened that fast, but many people expect exactly that. But instead of also questioning why people are thinking that (we actual seem to agree that it isn't likely to happen this fast), you choose to stomp your feet and throw your sippy cup at the wall and argue things you actually seem to agree on. Not very productive if you ask me.

I guess I don't understand what your point is in all of this. What are you looking for? What do you want people to say? I'd like to agree with you, but I don't even know what to agree with, because your posts are so all-over-the-place and contradictory.

My point of all of this is that most people are thinking that the miracle being promised by the Cubs is not a very likely outcome and that throwing away seasons in the name of helping this process along is pretty unacceptable.

I am looking for the team to use its ample resources on making the team on the field better while developing the farm system and not to make the owners more money.

 

[FirstTimer]

One, your examples are ludicrous. You are counting Charlie Finley's A's as being a 41 year rebuilding project...kind of pointless to continue the discussion. Your timelines and definitions of "rebuilding" and "success" makes this an exercise in futility. When talking about the early-90's Pirates, you claimed that the Pirates didn't win enough in the early-80's...again, kind of pointless to continue the discussion. I am guessing that you would look at the Jordan era Bulls, say that they don't count because they had been "rebuilding" since the 1960's and didn't win enough titles prior to the 91 NBA Championship.

Two, you aren't looking at the eras in which teams played. With so many divisions and so many postseason spots, I think its easier for a team to rebuild quickly now as opposed to the KC Royals of 1975 hoping to finally unseat the Oakland A's to earn their playoff spot.

You're "using only the farm system" is just more semantical jibberish on your point with no basis in fact. You add that caveat so you have an "out" whenever anyone disputes the logic of your postings.



I thought they were putting the effort into rebuilding, not winning this season. Perhaps I have some inside information here?



So the Royals and Twins weren't consistent contenders? Got it.



What on earth are you talking about?



Reminds me of Mt. Salami's diatribe of "I've been a Cubs fan for 35 years...I will not stand for this losing!". Where have you been all this time? Did you just start watching the Cubs in 2012? Would it really be a miracle if Epstein makes the Cubs winners, considering he did well in Boston? Why is that outcome so unbelievable to you...and if it IS unbelieveable, why is it so surprising/upsetting if you've been a Cubs fan for so long?

A little background. KB doesn't believe you are a contender if you don't win a WS. For example: In his mind the Buffalo Bills wouldn't have been Super Bowl contenders in the early 1990's.

 

[KBisBack!]

You're "using only the farm system" is just more semantical jibberish on your point with no basis in fact. You add that caveat so you have an "out" whenever anyone disputes the logic of your postings.

So the point that many people have made that the team should be built using the farm system to build the core is now semantics??

Um ok.

Would it really be a miracle if Epstein makes the Cubs winners, considering he did well in Boston? Why is that outcome so unbelievable to you...and if it IS unbelieveable, why is it so surprising/upsetting if you've been a Cubs fan for so long?

He did well in Boston because he was given an organization stock full of talent at both the major league level and minor league level.

So what he is trying to do in Chicago is something he has never done.

Details, details, details.

 

[KBisBack!]

A little background. KB doesn't believe you are a contender if you don't win a WS. For example: In his mind the Buffalo Bills wouldn't have been Super Bowl contenders in the early 1990's.

Or I was using playoff trips, instead of WS victories.

Accurate as ever troll

 

[kchicub08]

Good to see the KB fire is back!

 

[Willrust]

So the point that many people have made that the team should be built using the farm system to build the core is now semantics??

Um ok.















He did well in Boston because he was given an organization stock full of talent at both the major league level and minor league level.

So what he is trying to do in Chicago is something he has never done.

Details, details, details.

You mean Jim Hendry didn't leave the Cub franchise with a spectacular farm system and stacked MLB roster?

Also, where are you getting this notion that the Cubs will never utilize the FA market to acquire talent? Just because they didn't blow their wad on Fielder or Pujols or Hamilton doesn't mean that they will never spend on FA's. Can you possibly admit that Maholm was a good pickup last year? How about Feldman this year? Not every move made by the Cubs has been this terrible fucking blight on the franchise that you make it out to be!

You do realize that you're on a Cubs message board yet have a fucking Royals logo attached to your name, and you get bent when someone questions your Cub fan-hood.

You know what, fucking forget it. It's like a cat chasing it's damned tail with you.

 

[KBisBack!]

Also, where are you getting this notion that the Cubs will never utilize the FA market to acquire talent?

From people like you who argue that no significant FA's should be signed until the core is in place.

 

[dabynsky]

But you refuse to acknowledge that the decrease in the number of prospects would be the result of keeping major league players.

Really I have never acknowledged that? When I say that is taking resources from the future to the present that isn't acknowledging the result of keeping major league players?

You whine and cry about others reading comprehension and have clearly missed the entire point of this thread.

I have only questioned your ability to read, and when you aren't able to read multiple posts of mine in a row what else I am suppose to conclude?

I understand completely the point of the thread. I question how valid the results are when I can construct a similar question to negate the premise you have put forward. A question which you continue to refuse to provide an answer.

I have pointed out that no teams, except Oakland, have been able to make this turn around you feel will happen in short order with the #Theospankfest in charge.

And this brings us back to your incessant calls of anyone who doesn't think the past two years is the absolute worst management of all time is a #theoslurper. Since clearly anyone could have fixed the current situation of the Cubs, then you can surely name me a team coming off of two losing seasons that was able to make the postseason in three years with no significant contributions from the minor leagues and a decrease in payroll.

 

[chibears55]

then you can surely name me a team coming off of two losing seasons that was able to make the postseason in three years with no significant contributions from the minor leagues and a decrease in payroll.

thats just something he and a couple of his buddies just cant get a grip on..

their minor league system had no one available or good in ST 2012 to jump into the major league level and perform well..
heres what they ended up having to bring up..

bryan lahair 1B, tony campana CF, steve clevenger C, brett jackson CF, josh vitters 3B, Adrian cardenas UT, blake dewitt UT,
justin germano P, chris rusin P, brooks raley P, casey coleman P, michael bowden P, jeff beliveau P and others who had a cup of coffee

seriously ?? this guy want to say they had a good/better system after the 2011 season then they do now and this was the top of the group they had to pick from to help sore up two 90 lost seasons..

they had a major league roster of guys nearing or at the end of the road, they got rid of a few before the season started and stuck with some and eventually was able to move them..

they spent their first two offseason fixxing up the system they had by trading away some of the vets they had and playing the FA flip game..

their starting to establish a younger core on the major league level with castillo, rizzo, castro, samardzija, wood, russell
they have a couple guys in their system that will get a look at sometime this season to see if they will stick..

they didnt do the big contract big money signing the first 2 off seasons because
A. payroll was reduced and
B. they want to establish a system and see who going to come out of their system to be part of their younger core

their cheap, their throwing seasons blah blah blah.. who cares right now..
they lost 90 games two yrs in a row with an older team and no minor league system and nothing going forward

so, who gives a shit that they lost 100 last yr and might lose 90-100 this year.. yea it sucks to lose but..
at least now they have a better system going forward, and they have some good young core on the major league roster and should only be better by the end of year two with upcoming draft and deadline deals..

cant assume what their going to do this offseason..
im sure epstein and hoyer are smart enough cause they have beenmajor league GMS longer then all of us on here, to know they eventually have to start spending on long term FAs..

so instead of pissing about whoulda coulda shoulda..

open your eyes and quit crying for 2 seconds and see that their actually doing a decent job (yea some questionable moves) at making this yeam better for the long haul..

 

[KBisBack!]

I understand completely the point of the thread. I question how valid the results are when I can construct a similar question to negate the premise you have put forward. A question which you continue to refuse to provide an answer.

Yawn.

I have answered it, but you didn't like the answer so it is easier to remain a punk and whine that I am ignoring it.

And this brings us back to your incessant calls of anyone who doesn't think the past two years is the absolute worst management of all time is a #theoslurper. Since clearly anyone could have fixed the current situation of the Cubs, then you can surely name me a team coming off of two losing seasons that was able to make the postseason in three years with no significant contributions from the minor leagues and a decrease in payroll.

Well this paragraph of stupidity leaves me with two conclusions.

1. You are intentionally ignoring the points that I have made with are completely inconsistent with this premise

or

2. You are really freaking stupid.

Let's clear up your massive inaccuracies first.

1. You assume that I haven't placed blame on Ricketts when in fact I have said on numerous occasions that there is enough suckiness to go around that everyone gets a share of the blame, but that doesn't commute with the Theo is infallible brain dead sheep.

2. You assume that I think this team should already be a World Series favorite. I have never said that.

What I have said is that after two full and complete off seasons you would think someone as great at his job as the sheep think Theo is would say a marked improvement in the organization with 40% of the major time to improve the organization (the offseason) already completed on this five year deal.

I have also said that the team should have been making every effort to field the best major league baseball team possible the last two seasons. Anyone who truly believes this is the best team the organization could have fielded even while trying to improve the minor league system and plan for the renovation of the ballpark is too dumb to breed and should be eliminated from the gene pool.

 

[KBisBack!]

thats just something he and a couple of his buddies just cant get a grip on..

We have a full grip on reality.

We aren't the ones who are dumb enough to believe like you do that you can either build the farm system or spend on the major league team.

open your eyes and quit crying for 2 seconds and see that their actually doing a decent job (yea some questionable moves) at making this yeam better for the long haul..

Bullshit.

There is not one factual point you can make to support that the team is in a better position to make the team better for the long haul than they were two years ago.

All you have is opinion and prayers that the team is in a better position since the major league team is not improved and there is no guarantee that any of the players in the farm system will ever be successful at the major league level.

 

[nwfisch]

A quote directly from Francona's book. "Theo was OK if the Sox regressed for a year to make things better in the long run." The Red Sox had no tolerance for rebuilding.

 

[mountsalami]

thats just something he and a couple of his buddies just cant get a grip on..

their minor league system had no one available or good in ST 2012 to jump into the major league level and perform well..
heres what they ended up having to bring up..

bryan lahair 1B, tony campana CF, steve clevenger C, brett jackson CF, josh vitters 3B, Adrian cardenas UT, blake dewitt UT,
justin germano P, chris rusin P, brooks raley P, casey coleman P, michael bowden P, jeff beliveau P and others who had a cup of coffee

seriously ?? this guy want to say they had a good/better system after the 2011 season then they do now and this was the top of the group they had to pick from to help sore up two 90 lost seasons..

they had a major league roster of guys nearing or at the end of the road, they got rid of a few before the season started and stuck with some and eventually was able to move them..

they spent their first two offseason fixxing up the system they had by trading away some of the vets they had and playing the FA flip game..

their starting to establish a younger core on the major league level with castillo, rizzo, castro, samardzija, wood, russell
they have a couple guys in their system that will get a look at sometime this season to see if they will stick..

they didnt do the big contract big money signing the first 2 off seasons because
A. payroll was reduced and
B. they want to establish a system and see who going to come out of their system to be part of their younger core

their cheap, their throwing seasons blah blah blah.. who cares right now..
they lost 90 games two yrs in a row with an older team and no minor league system and nothing going forward

so, who gives a shit that they lost 100 last yr and might lose 90-100 this year.. yea it sucks to lose but..
at least now they have a better system going forward, and they have some good young core on the major league roster and should only be better by the end of year two with upcoming draft and deadline deals..

cant assume what their going to do this offseason..
im sure epstein and hoyer are smart enough cause they have beenmajor league GMS longer then all of us on here, to know they eventually have to start spending on long term FAs..

so instead of pissing about whoulda coulda shoulda..

open your eyes and quit crying for 2 seconds and see that their actually doing a decent job (yea some questionable moves) at making this yeam better for the long haul..

Dumb.

 

[dabynsky]

Yawn.

I have answered it, but you didn't like the answer so it is easier to remain a punk and whine that I am ignoring it.

So you named a team with two losing seasons that didn't get significant contributions from the minor leagues and a decrease in payroll?

Well this paragraph of stupidity leaves me with two conclusions.

1. You are intentionally ignoring the points that I have made with are completely inconsistent with this premise

or

2. You are really freaking stupid.

Let's clear up your massive inaccuracies first.

1. You assume that I haven't placed blame on Ricketts when in fact I have said on numerous occasions that there is enough suckiness to go around that everyone gets a share of the blame, but that doesn't commute with the Theo is infallible brain dead sheep.

2. You assume that I think this team should already be a World Series favorite. I have never said that.

What I have said is that after two full and complete off seasons you would think someone as great at his job as the sheep think Theo is would say a marked improvement in the organization with 40% of the major time to improve the organization (the offseason) already completed on this five year deal.

I have also said that the team should have been making every effort to field the best major league baseball team possible the last two seasons. Anyone who truly believes this is the best team the organization could have fielded even while trying to improve the minor league system and plan for the renovation of the ballpark is too dumb to breed and should be eliminated from the gene pool.

And around and around you go without answering the very reasonable question. The measure of success is the postseason that we are all going by. You want historical facts to support our side of the discussion. So where are the historical facts to suggest that anyone is capable of managing to make the postseason in this situation in three years much less than the less than 2 years you've given this front office.

 

[nwfisch]

I quit reading the back and forth for awhile now, but I'll say my piece.

I think we all want the Cubs to be the best team possible. I note this, because while "anything can happen" I wouldn't want the Cubs to shoot for getting lucky for a flash in the plan under Team Theo.

My belief is that in order to do that, they have to spend money on a quality free agent that the prospect pipeline doesn't develop. Some people believe the Cubs have to wait for the time and place for the FA, but I think the Cubs will be waiting forever if that's the case. Even a guy similar in skill to Werth would help the Cubs tremendously.

 

[dabynsky]

I quit reading the back and forth for awhile now, but I'll say my piece.

I think we all want the Cubs to be the best team possible. I note this, because while "anything can happen" I wouldn't want the Cubs to shoot for getting lucky for a flash in the plan under Team Theo.

My belief is that in order to do that, they have to spend money on a quality free agent that the prospect pipeline doesn't develop. Some people believe the Cubs have to wait for the time and place for the FA, but I think the Cubs will be waiting forever if that's the case. Even a guy similar in skill to Werth would help the Cubs tremendously.

Only the truly stupid here have ever argued it is entirely one or the other. The question has always beeen when do you shift resources from the future to the present, and how many. Some feel here that they should have been always prioritizing the present over the future with various moves that despite protests to the contrary would have limited the number of prospects, prospects are a number game. I have put forward the argument that matches more what the front office has done, and that is the option to spend our way out of this mess was taking off the table by ownership, everyone seems to agree this is the case. That has meant that the Cubs could have tried to patchwork a roster together for marginal increases in playoff chances this year and last. Or they can try to increase the overall talent pool of the organization and sacrifice some of the present for the future.

The tide though needs to start changing at this point. Impact talent in the minors is on the verge of crossing the important AA barrier, acknowledged by many including the front office as being the point when a callup is reasonable. I have also stated that the Cubs should be all in on Robinson Cano if he hits the market. I have also stated that I think due to the trade value of Garza likely to be significantly less than a year ago that extending him makes the most sense. If the Cubs remain in this pattern of pure talent acquisition in year three and four of the Theo regime than I will start to panic about the direction of the franchise.

 

[Boobaby1]

Only the truly stupid here have ever argued it is entirely one or the other. The question has always beeen when do you shift resources from the future to the present, and how many. Some feel here that they should have been always prioritizing the present over the future with various moves that despite protests to the contrary would have limited the number of prospects, prospects are a number game. I have put forward the argument that matches more what the front office has done, and that is the option to spend our way out of this mess was taking off the table by ownership, everyone seems to agree this is the case. That has meant that the Cubs could have tried to patchwork a roster together for marginal increases in playoff chances this year and last. Or they can try to increase the overall talent pool of the organization and sacrifice some of the present for the future.

The tide though needs to start changing at this point. Impact talent in the minors is on the verge of crossing the important AA barrier, acknowledged by many including the front office as being the point when a callup is reasonable. I have also stated that the Cubs should be all in on Robinson Cano if he hits the market. I have also stated that I think due to the trade value of Garza likely to be significantly less than a year ago that extending him makes the most sense. If the Cubs remain in this pattern of pure talent acquisition in year three and four of the Theo regime than I will start to panic about the direction of the franchise.

Well put.

I will add that the balance of this year is going to be the determining factor for me.

1. Who will they draft?

2. How well will Garza, Baker, and Viscaino perform after their stints on the DL?

3. When will the young kids on the farm advance and to where?

4. Last but not least, will they make any substantial move in the off-season?

 

[CherokeeReds]

He did well in Boston because he was given an organization stock full of talent at both the major league level and minor league level.

So what he is trying to do in Chicago is something he has never done.

Whether he was personally responsible for all of Boston's success or not, Epstein spent several years in the midst of a very successful organization. I would guess he learned a thing or two about how to put together a winning baseball team while he was there.

 

[KBisBack!]

So where are the historical facts to suggest that anyone is capable of managing to make the postseason in this situation in three years much less than the less than 2 years you've given this front office.

Once again you wrongfully attempt to place on the blame on the front office as you consistently ignore the numerous times I have said the blame falls on both the ownership and front office. A truly punk move.

But here you go......

Last year the Orioles. They lost 93 games in 2011 and won 93 games in 2012.

2003 Tigers lost 119 games, three years later were in the World Series.

2006 Cubs lost 96 games and then made the playoffs 2 straight seasons.

Those are three right off the top of my head.

But once again you ignore a main piece of the logic in what I have been saying. I have never, ever said it was a guarantee that things could be turned around this quickly, that is was likely it could happen, only that the team should make every possible effort and only good things could come of it and you wouldn't be sacrificing in any way the building of the franchise for the sacred long term sustained success they believe is the destiny of the #TheoSpankfest But you have no argument against that so you continue to ignore it just as you ignore the repeated, equal blame I place on ownership.