A couple throw away seasons turning into sustained long term success...........

[nwfisch]

Is there even a football field left after KB has moved the goalposts all over the place?

I don't understand what you want anymore.

 

[KBisBack!]

Only the truly stupid here have ever argued it is entirely one or the other.

And sadly that is still a large number of people.

The question has always beeen when do you shift resources from the future to the present, and how many.

And yet the answer is still a neither/or situation.

Especially with the new amateur spending limits in place for the entire time the #TheoSpankfest has been in place, the Cubs have enough resources where they don't have to make a choice. They can spend every single dollar possible on the farm system and still field a substantial payroll.

Some feel here that they should have been always prioritizing the present over the future with various moves that despite protests to the contrary would have limited the number of prospects, prospects are a number game.

Almost no one has said that and especially not me.

Most of us have said they should place maximum emphasis on the present and future. You know that BOTH thing that has only been mentioned about 1000 times that apparently still hasn't penetrated your skull.

I have put forward the argument that matches more what the front office has done, and that is the option to spend our way out of this mess was taking off the table by ownership, everyone seems to agree this is the case.

Nope.

You have apologized for a mediocre at best front office performance because of the cut in spending. The exact part of the PR campaign that fools the sheep. Ricketts is smart enough to know that spending $3.7M a year on Theo buys a lot more fan apathy and even support than having to spend on actual quality players. He has been able to successfully cut around $40M off payroll in a few seasons without the majority of fans being in an uproar because of the $7.4M he has spent so far on Theo. Looks like good business math to me. And spare me the ignorance of you have to field a winning team to making money. The Cubs were the most profitable team in baseball last year as reported by Forbes or at worse, still a hugely profitable team.

That has meant that the Cubs could have tried to patchwork a roster together for marginal increases in playoff chances this year and last. Or they can try to increase the overall talent pool of the organization and sacrifice some of the present for the future.

Nope. You still can only see it as a choice.

It wasn't a choice. You can still build for the future without sacrificing the present. Many other teams in baseball have done it.

 

[KBisBack!]

I don't understand what you want anymore.

I would recommend that you only pay attention to what I have actually said and ignore the made up shit that others are saying that I have said.

 

[The Bandit]

*cough* multi-quote *cough* It's pretty obvious it starts with the farm and ends with the big guys being brought in, not sure how you can continue to argue when you're not even a Cubs fan. Go back to watching your shit team in KC.

 

[KBisBack!]

It's pretty obvious it starts with the farm and ends with the big guys being brought in

Nope.

It is pretty obvious it starts with doing both things at the same time and doing it every season.

 

[dabynsky]

Once again you wrongfully attempt to place on the blame on the front office as you consistently ignore the numerous times I have said the blame falls on both the ownership and front office. A truly punk move.

But here you go......

Last year the Orioles. They lost 93 games in 2011 and won 93 games in 2012.

2003 Tigers lost 119 games, three years later were in the World Series.

2006 Cubs lost 96 games and then made the playoffs 2 straight seasons.

Those are three right off the top of my head.

But once again you ignore a main piece of the logic in what I have been saying. I have never, ever said it was a guarantee that things could be turned around this quickly, that is was likely it could happen, only that the team should make every possible effort and only good things could come of it and you wouldn't be sacrificing in any way the building of the franchise for the sacred long term sustained success they believe is the destiny of the #TheoSpankfest But you have no argument against that so you continue to ignore it just as you ignore the repeated, equal blame I place on ownership.

Both Baltimore and Detroit got significant contributions from prospects in the playoff years you mentioned. None of them cut payroll on the scale of what the Cubs did, and really both Detroit and Chicago had massive increases in payroll. Baltimore cut salary from the year before by a mere 2 million, but that was still 10 million more than two years ago and 14 million from three-four years ago. So again you have no answer for a team that was able to accomplish making the postseason without a signficant prospect in those three years and decreasing payroll.

Historical facts suggest that it is unlikely for a team to accomplish this level of turnaround in the timeframe you've suggested due to two factors you've admitted are out of the front office's control which is a lack of impact talent from the minors anywhere near the effect of Justin Verlander, Curtis Granderson, and Manny Machado and has to at the same time cut payroll. This doesn't absolve Theo Epstein of blame for poor moves or credit for good moves, but when you want to chide people for being unrealistic based on historical facts you might want to consider all factors.

 

[The Bandit]

Nope.

It is pretty obvious it starts with doing both things at the same time and doing it every season.

Phils, mainly homegrown, BoSox mostly homegrown, Twins, homegrown, Cards,homegrown, TB homegrown, Baltimore, Colorado, A's, KC, Nationals, Rangers, etc. etc. etc. there's tons of examples of where you need to establish homegrown talent then bring in Fa's not everyone is the Yankees and just buys the team, even before the 2000 the Yanks did it that way, Cano, Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Bernie, all farm talent that makes the cornerstone to bring in the big guy to round out the team. Pretty obvious to everyone but you.

 

[KBisBack!]

Both Baltimore and Detroit got significant contributions from prospects in the playoff years you mentioned.

Bullshit.

Machado played 50 games and barely hit .260.

And Detroit got much, much, much, much, much more significant contributions from high priced FA signings in Pudge, Magglio, Rogers etc.

You know, that pesky little BOTH thing you continue to ignore.

None of them cut payroll on the scale of what the Cubs did, and really both Detroit and Chicago had massive increases in payroll. Baltimore cut salary from the year before by a mere 2 million, but that was still 10 million more than two years ago and 14 million from three-four years ago. So again you have no answer for a team that was able to accomplish making the postseason without a signficant prospect in those three years and decreasing payroll.

And for about the 1000 time you fucking moron, I DON'T CARE!.

I blame Ricketts equally.

Stop being a punk.

but when you want to chide people for being unrealistic based on historical facts you might want to consider all factors.

Unlike you who gets to pick and chose what they want??

I have said consistently that there is no reason that payroll should have been cut and yet you keep whining about it because you have no actual facts to counter what I have said.

You are clearly just being an asshole right now and deliberately ignoring main points I have made.

 

[KBisBack!]

there's tons of examples of where you need to establish homegrown talent then bring in Fa's

And there are even more examples of teams bringing in FA's while building the farm.

And I am not going to list them all again since you were too dumb to understand it the first time.

 

[The Bandit]

And there are even more examples of teams bringing in FA's while building the farm.

And I am not going to list them all again since you were too dumb to understand it the first time.

It's like arguing with a two year old, all you do is throw out insults and try to be louder then the other person. It's pointless. Go find a KC forum.

 

[dabynsky]

And sadly that is still a large number of people.

And yet you choose to address your complaints with multiple towards me. :thinking:

And yet the answer is still a neither/or situation.

Especially with the new amateur spending limits in place for the entire time the #TheoSpankfest has been in place, the Cubs have enough resources where they don't have to make a choice. They can spend every single dollar possible on the farm system and still field a substantial payroll.

The moves you have suggested decreases the number of prospects that the organization has. You can argue all you want that it doesn't matter, but that is taking away from the future for the present.

Almost no one has said that and especially not me.

Most of us have said they should place maximum emphasis on the present and future. You know that BOTH thing that has only been mentioned about 1000 times that apparently still hasn't penetrated your skull.

Your moves that you have suggested have consistently placed more emphasis on the present by limiting the number of draft picks this team has and limiting the number of opportunities to acquire younger talent.

Nope.

You have apologized for a mediocre at best front office performance because of the cut in spending. The exact part of the PR campaign that fools the sheep. Ricketts is smart enough to know that spending $3.7M a year on Theo buys a lot more fan apathy and even support than having to spend on actual quality players. He has been able to successfully cut around $40M off payroll in a few seasons without the majority of fans being in an uproar because of the $7.4M he has spent so far on Theo. Looks like good business math to me. And spare me the ignorance of you have to field a winning team to making money. The Cubs were the most profitable team in baseball last year as reported by Forbes or at worse, still a hugely profitable team.

I have no control over what Ricketts does. If he is hoarding money right now. Shame on him, but there is nothing I can do about that fact. And it changes very little about the decisions the front office has to make. They are given a budget and have to work within that.

Nope. You still can only see it as a choice.

It wasn't a choice. You can still build for the future without sacrificing the present. Many other teams in baseball have done it.

And many of the avenues that teams did have to build for the future while still going all out to be competitive in the present been closed by the new cba. Theo Esptein and the Rays and many other teams consistently let relievers go for compensation picks which made up for drafting towards the bottom and or losing picks for signing free agents. Those opportunities are gone. Teams with the best farm systems consistently went overslot which could make up for drafting towards the bottom. The draft is also shorter and there are huge restrictions on signing undrafted free agents. All of these factors impact on the Cubs ability to add prospects which we all agree is vitally important for successful franchises long term.

The bottom line remains as I've consistently pointed out given the handcuffs on the front office there was no quick fix. Most people saw that prior to the takeover, and the course has been set. As I've said, the shift needs to be made this offseason from pure talent acquisition to building as this team should be poised to bring those two factors that have seen virtually every successful turnaround, an influx of young talent paired with increasing payroll.

 

[KBisBack!]

It's like arguing with a two year old, all you do is throw out insults and try to be louder then the other person.

I have to get louder than the idiots who ignore the facts I provide.

Only a two year old continues to claim that the facts are wrong.

 

[dabynsky]

Bullshit.

Machado played 50 games and barely hit .260.

And Detroit got much, much, much, much, much more significant contributions from high priced FA signings in Pudge, Magglio, Rogers etc.

You know, that pesky little BOTH thing you continue to ignore.



And for about the 1000 time you fucking moron, I DON'T CARE!.

I blame Ricketts equally.

Stop being a punk.




Unlike you who gets to pick and chose what they want??

I have said consistently that there is no reason that payroll should have been cut and yet you keep whining about it because you have no actual facts to counter what I have said.

You are clearly just being an asshole right now and deliberately ignoring main points I have made.

The main point is I want you to address the situation that faced the front office. You say you blame both, but if both are to share the blame find me a team that was able to accomplish what we both agree is success with the handcuffs on this front office.

You can sit here and say it is both, both, both. But we both agree that the lack of impact talent like a top prospect in baseball and the ability to dramatically increase payroll is a problem facing this franchise right now. Who is to blame for those problems?

 

[KBisBack!]

And yet you choose to address your complaints with multiple towards me.

And yet you choose to whine about my complaints with the multiple as being personalized towards just you.

The moves you have suggested decreases the number of prospects that the organization has. You can argue all you want that it doesn't matter, but that is taking away from the future for the present.

And increases the talent on the major league team.

But you believe that prospects in the minors are more important than talent on the major league team.

You can cry all you want, but in the large majority of the cases when the prospects in the minors totally bust out, having the increased talent on the major league team ends up being better both in the present and the future.

Whoops.

Your moves that you have suggested have consistently placed more emphasis on the present by limiting the number of draft picks this team has and limiting the number of opportunities to acquire younger talent.

Wrong.

100% false.

The only draft pick that any move I havent suggested would have sacrificed is the supplemental pick for Pierce Johnson which would have only resulted if the team had signed Prince Fielder.

If you are dumb enough to think there is anything more than a remote chance that Pierce Johnson ends up being a better long term player than Prince Fielder, well there is no amount of intelligence that will help you. You are a lost cause.

I have no control over what Ricketts does. If he is hoarding money right now. Shame on him, but there is nothing I can do about that fact. And it changes very little about the decisions the front office has to make. They are given a budget and have to work within that.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Again I am blaming EVERYONE.

And many of the avenues that teams did have to build for the future while still going all out to be competitive in the present been closed by the new cba.

Wrong.

The limit to the spending a team can do in the amateur spending actually opens up more of the abundant resources the Cubs have to focus on the present without sacrificing the future.

 

[The Bandit]

The main point is I want you to address the situation that faced the front office. You say you blame both, but if both are to share the blame find me a team that was able to accomplish what we both agree is success with the handcuffs on this front office.

You can sit here and say it is both, both, both. But we both agree that the lack of impact talent like a top prospect in baseball and the ability to dramatically increase payroll is a problem facing this franchise right now. Who is to blame for those problems?

Dabs just give up it's pointless arguing with the kid.

 

[KBisBack!]

The main point is I want you to address the situation that faced the front office. You say you blame both, but if both are to share the blame find me a team that was able to accomplish what we both agree is success with the handcuffs on this front office.

Seriously you are being an asshole.

I don't give a **** about the handcuffs on the front office. I have said that repeatedly but you continue to whine and whine and whine and whine on about it no matter how many times I say I don't care.

The handcuffs are part of the problem and I am addressing the ENTIRE problem, not just masturbating to the front office.

You can sit here and say it is both, both, both. But we both agree that the lack of impact talent like a top prospect in baseball and the ability to dramatically increase payroll is a problem facing this franchise right now. Who is to blame for those problems?

There is no problem facing the team to dramatically increase payroll.

You have been conned.

Not my fault you believe in fairy tales.

 

[KBisBack!]

The main point is I want you to address the situation that faced the front office.

The main point I would like you to address is that I am talking about the WHOLE problem.

Not just part of the problem that you want to whine and whine and whine about.

 

[SilenceS]

I just got one question, Theo and them get passes because of the front office restricting money? Which I agree with mostly. Not totally, but mostly. Then why does everyone who blames Hendry for this team not give him a pass when he had major restrictions on spending in the draft? Are they not the same concept? Ricketts is being cheap. Bottom line. You can say this and that but he is. Will he always? I hope not or the Cubs are in trouble. To be truthful him and his family seem like douches. They seem slimey especially the younger brother. I dont want to here renovations because the point of renovations is for them to make oodles of money on top of it. Ricketts could spend more than he is. We all know it. Lets just hope he doesnt continue the trend or it will take the Cubs 10 years to compete. I think Garza is going to be a telling sign on how Ricketts decides to go about it. I really believe Theo and them would rather lock him down, but it ultimately comes down to Ricketts pocketbook. They dont spend this off season then it isnt a good sign. No matter how you want to twist it.

 

[dabynsky]

The main point I would like you to address is that I am talking about the WHOLE problem.

Not just part of the problem that you want to whine and whine and whine about.

I see you want to leave out facts that don't fit your agenda. Because until you give me a case of a front office able to accomplish a postseason run under these conditions it is as much of a fairtale as throwing away multiple seasons for sustained success.

 

[KBisBack!]

I just got one question, Theo and them get passes because of the front office restricting money?

Exactly.

But the #TheoSpankfest has repeatedly shown the lack of intelligence to understand that focusing on building both the major league team and the farm system at the same time is much more likely to end up being successful than focusing solely on either one.

So it should be no surprise that they are unable to grasp the concept that BOTH the ownership and new management team have blame for the shitfest of baseball we have been treated to the last now two seasons.

Ownership has sucked by squeezing as much cash as they can the last couple seasons at the expense of a quality major league team.

The front office has sucked because of mainly terrible roster decisions that have given the fans a terrible, terrible on the field product.

Both are to blame.