Alfonso Soriano's Endless Contract

[Jntg4]

The argument can still be made that he was a top 10 player. Even if he wasn't, he was still top 15. You have still provided nothing to say he isn't other than he sucks at defense now & your eyes tell you so.

Again, go back to the moldy bread smug.

The one with the least amount of mold still isn't good, even if the rest suck.

The rest of the LFers sucking does not make Soriano good, it means that they are all terrible.

His value doesn't increase, it still decreases. The less moldy piece of bread is still worth less than a normal piece of bread, even though the rest suck too.

 

[Rice Cube]

See I think his problem is he just has TERRIBLE reaction times. Hence why he didn't work out in the INF, and honestly why I don't think he will work at 1B.

We will see. I would at least like to see him over the rest of the season. I don't believe he is really this slow, but we will see.

I think that he's probably capable of fielding most ground balls and catching balls thrown directly at him. What would be a problem is if he has to dig balls out of the dirt and stretch way out to catch errant throws from the other infielders and the pitchers

I dunno...if you look at the power-hitting 1Bs in the majors, very few of them can actually be called "good defenders"...1B is where you stick a guy if he sucks on defense and you don't have a DH. It'd be kind of cool if the Cubs tried it out for a spring training, because it's not like something he can do overnight.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Again, go back to the moldy bread smug.

The one with the least amount of mold still isn't good, even if the rest suck.

The rest of the LFers sucking does not make Soriano good, it means that they are all terrible.

His value doesn't increase, it still decreases. The less moldy piece of bread is still worth less than a normal piece of bread, even though the rest suck too.

Yes, his value does increase. He is being compared to his peers. If all his peers suck, and he sucks less, he is going to be more valuable.

Is that including or excluding pitchers?

The argument could be made for either.

 

[Jntg4]

Yes, his value does increase. He is being compared to his peers. If all his peers suck, and he sucks less, he is going to be more valuable.



The argument could be made for either.

No... it does not increase the value. That mold still loses value because it is moldy, because it sucks. The rest sucking more doesn't make it increase value. It is still moldy, which decreases it's value.

 

[poodski]

Yes. I do, but I don't know what the numbers mean or how they calculated it.



So how'd they calculate it. (AVG*1000)/R or something like that?

No its just simply you put together a list of teams and their runs and their averages. Like for example this year in the NL Central it would look something like:

runs	avg
330	0.272
300	0.255
345	0.262
253	0.241
273	0.261
269	0.264

Which for the record has a correlation of .610872

Which isn't good, but its a VERY VERY small sample size.

The Cubs and the Reds have very similar averages (262 and 264) but the Reds have scored 76 more runs than we have.

 

[Jntg4]

No, thats not what I asked. I asked you what YOU were including/excluding in your argument. So, I ask again, when you say that Soriano was a top 15 player, does that include pitchers?

He said Top 10 actually, and said Top 15 later.

 

[Jntg4]

No its just simply you put together a list of teams and their runs and their averages. Like for example this year in the NL Central it would look something like:

runs	avg
330	0.272
300	0.255
345	0.262
253	0.241
273	0.261
269	0.264

Which for the record has a correlation of .610872

Which isn't good, but its a VERY VERY small sample size.

The Cubs and the Reds have very similar averages (262 and 264) but the Reds have scored 76 more runs than we have.

But Barney, unlike the rest of the Cubs, has a higher average wRISP, which correlates to runs more.

 

[poodski]

I think that he's probably capable of fielding most ground balls and catching balls thrown directly at him. What would be a problem is if he has to dig balls out of the dirt and stretch way out to catch errant throws from the other infielders and the pitchers

I dunno...if you look at the power-hitting 1Bs in the majors, very few of them can actually be called "good defenders"...1B is where you stick a guy if he sucks on defense and you don't have a DH. It'd be kind of cool if the Cubs tried it out for a spring training, because it's not like something he can do overnight.

I can just imagine the first time he tries to make a Mark Teixeira like stretch for a ball.

That's a 15 day DL stint, and yeah I agree 1B is bad too. Hell Adam Dunn was a "decent" first baseman.

 

[poodski]

But Barney, unlike the rest of the Cubs, has a higher average wRISP, which correlates to runs more.

Is BA wRISP a sustainable skill?

 

[Jntg4]

Is BA wRISP a sustainable skill?

Potentially... could be simply "clutch", we don't know.

 

[poodski]

Potentially... could be simply "clutch", we don't know.

There is no reason to believe "clutch" is a sustainable skill.

David Ortiz is considered one of the "clutchiest" players ever. He is currently second to last on the season in clutch.

The top five clutch players this year are: Ryan Howard, John Buck, Jacoby Ellsbury, Michael Young and Dexter Fowler.

Last year it was: Michael Bourn, Placido Polanco, Carlos Lee, Jose Lopez, and Delmon Young. Number 6 the most unclutch player ever Alex Rodriguez sat at number 6.

 

[Jntg4]

There is no reason to believe "clutch" is a sustainable skill.

David Ortiz is considered one of the "clutchiest" players ever. He is currently second to last on the season in clutch.

The top five clutch players this year are: Ryan Howard, John Buck, Jacoby Ellsbury, Michael Young and Dexter Fowler.

Last year it was: Michael Bourn, Placido Polanco, Carlos Lee, Jose Lopez, and Delmon Young. Number 6 the most unclutch player ever Alex Rodriguez sat at number 6.

Who are the active career leaders in RISP?

 

[FirstTimer]

Batting avg doesn't correlate to runs all that well.

Which of these stats correlate to Soriano being a Top 10 player in 2007?

The argument can still be made that he was a top 10 player. Even if he wasn't, he was still top 15.

He was neither.

And he wasn't close.

Just quit with this stupid shit.

Your "argument" has been blown to pieces and you keep on insisting Soriano was based on practically nothing.

You have still provided nothing to say he isn't other than he sucks at defense now & your eyes tell you so.

He doesn't need to provide anything. I provided everything.

You just choose to ignore because you want to act like a butt hurt child.

 

[Captain Obvious]

No, thats not what I asked. I asked you what YOU were including/excluding in your argument. So, I ask again, when you say that Soriano was a top 15 player, does that include pitchers?

Yes, it does.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm just not a huge fan of BR's WAR. I'm a fangraphs guy.

Fangraphs WAR says:

Posey>>>Soto in 2010. 3.8 to 3.0.




You like fangraphs because it helps you in Soriano's case. Not that it really matters because outside of fangraphs WAR stat there is NOTHING indicating that Soriano was a top 10 player in 2007.

Don't you think that's a little odd?

Any rational person would think the following:

"Hmm. In 2007 Soriano didn't rank in the top 10 in the major in any significant statistic. In most cases he wasn't even in the Top 20 and in some cases he wasn't ranked in the Top 50. Behind such amazing players as Renteria, Hawpe, Dmitiri Young, and Jack Cust. Yet fangraphs WAR metric has him as the 9th "best" in the entire MLB. Something doesn't seem right here and something is drastically off in that WAR assesment."

I'm also going to point out the sheer idiocy of the following statement:

I'm just not a huge fan of BR's WAR I'm not going to say that what you are saying is wrong because I simply am not familiar with BR's WAR and it's not fair to compare the two.

1. You're not a huge fan of BR's WAR? Why not?..oh wait.

....

2. You say you aren't familiar with BR's WAR. Ok then how can you not be a "fan" of it if you aren't familiar with it? One would think that in order to not be a fan of something you'd have to be familiar with it to begin with because through that familiarty with it you'd be able to point to specific aspects of it that would lead you to not being a "fan" of it.

3. How can you say it's not fair to compare the two if you aren't familiar with one of them to begin with? What's the basis for this decree? By your own admission you aren't familiar with BR's WAR so how can you possibly make the assessment and judgement that it's unfair to compare the two?

I think this thread just set baseball back 20 years.

.

We beg of you to please go back to PSD so we can keep stupid shit like this localized to there. Much like "The Hive" in Resident Evil games.

 

[poodski]

Who are the active career leaders in RISP?

No clue but I would imagine its VERY similar to the active career leaders in "whatever stat you are looking at for RISP"

This is pretty much how it goes. Great hitters do great things with RISP. Bad hitters do bad things with RISP.

Over small sample sizes yes Barney might be a clutch player but over a career the numbers will look pretty similar.

I do know how to look it up over a span. So lets say from 2001 to 2010.

Here are the top 10 BA with RISP....

Pujols, Manny, Magglio, Michael Young, Sheffield, Ichiro, Helton, Miggy, Vlad, and Abreu

Overall the top 10 are:

Pujols, Ichiro, Mauer (though he may not have qualified under the other one), Helton, Vlad, Holliday, Magglio, Miggy, Hanley and Manny.

As you can see fairly similar names.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

No clue but I would imagine its VERY similar to the active career leaders in "whatever stat you are looking at for RISP"

This is pretty much how it goes. Great hitters do great things with RISP. Bad hitters do bad things with RISP.

Over small sample sizes yes Barney might be a clutch player but over a career the numbers will look pretty similar.

I do know how to look it up over a span. So lets say from 2001 to 2010.

Here are the top 10 BA with RISP....

Pujols, Manny, Magglio, Michael Young, Sheffield, Ichiro, Helton, Miggy, Vlad, and Abreu

Overall the top 10 are:

Pujols, Ichiro, Mauer (though he may not have qualified under the other one), Helton, Vlad, Holliday, Magglio, Miggy, Hanley and Manny.

As you can see fairly similar names.

obviously RISP is undeniably important in that it is the efficiency of batter when when runners are in position to score and therefore is a relative good clutch stat...but there are other clutch statistics..such as BA when the team is trailing or average in the last two or three innings(whether or not those are actually documented statistics idk...although there are so many fucking mindless and pointless statistics in baseball i wouldnt be surprised...but i'd like to see how those two stats correlate w/risp)

not to mention the term "clutch" is a subjective term based on exposure and what we intepret independent of statistics

kobe is considered "clutch" because he seems to make plays at the end of games, but ironically his % of playoff game winners is below 35%...

 

[poodski]

obviously RISP is undeniably important in that it is the efficiency of batter when when runners are in position to score and therefore is a relative good clutch stat...but there are other clutch statistics..such as BA when the team is trailing or average in the last two or three innings(whether or not those are actually documented statistics idk...although there are so many fucking mindless and pointless statistics in baseball i wouldnt be surprised...but i'd like to see how those two stats correlate w/risp)

not to mention the term "clutch" is a subjective term based on exposure and what we intepret independent of statistics

kobe is considered "clutch" because he seems to make plays at the end of games, but ironically his % of playoff game winners is below 35%...

I am not 100% sure what you are asking? I mean the clutch stat on FG is basically how much better a player does in high leverage situations compared to what they do in all situations....

That though is a COMPLETELY different stat and discussion from BA wRISP.

I still don't think its going to particularly matter as it most likely fluctuates a great deal.

Regardless over a 10 year period only 10 players have a clutch stat of less than -5. Those 10 are: Thome, Sosa, Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Luis Gonzalez, Mike Cameron, Shawn Green, Alfonso Soriano, and Jermaine Dye.

Over the same period only 3 players are above a positive 5: (Ichiro, Randy Winn, and Juan Pierre) The top 10 though are: Jacque Jones, Sean Casey, AJ Pierzynski, Orlando Cabrera, Ray Durham, Carlos Delgado and Chone Figgins.

I'd probably take the less clutch players over the more clutch players.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I am not 100% sure what you are asking? I mean the clutch stat on FG is basically how much better a player does in high leverage situations compared to what they do in all situations....

That though is a COMPLETELY different stat and discussion from BA wRISP.

I still don't think its going to particularly matter as it most likely fluctuates a great deal.

Regardless over a 10 year period only 10 players have a clutch stat of less than -5. Those 10 are: Thome, Sosa, Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Luis Gonzalez, Mike Cameron, Shawn Green, Alfonso Soriano, and Jermaine Dye.

Over the same period only 3 players are above a positive 5: (Ichiro, Randy Winn, and Juan Pierre) The top 10 though are: Jacque Jones, Sean Casey, AJ Pierzynski, Orlando Cabrera, Ray Durham, Carlos Delgado and Chone Figgins.

I'd probably take the less clutch players over the more clutch players.

my basketball example was not brought up to make a distinct connection to RISP...but both basketball and baseball are connected in that some players are perceived as "clutch" by our relative perception..when in reality the statistics may show very differently....in other words "clutch" is a varied term

and right...being an actual STATISTICALLY "clutch" player doesnt mean the player is overall productive offensively...which is seen in barney

my earlier question or proposal was seeing batting average(also slugging) in the last two innings or when the player's team is trailing...i realize that there probably is no signifcant relationship between those two stats and risp because risp deals with when players are in position to score and the other stats deal with completely independent situations...but i'd still like to see how high risp players do in those two stats

does that make sense?

 

[poodski]

my basketball example was not brought up to make a distinct connection to RISP...but both basketball and baseball are connected in that some players are perceived as "clutch" by our relative perception..when in reality the statistics may show very differently....in other words "clutch" is a varied term

and right...being an actual STATISTICALLY "clutch" player doesnt mean the player is overall productive offensively...which is seen in barney

my earlier question or proposal was seeing batting average(also slugging) in the last two innings or when the player's team is trailing...i realize that there probably is no signifcant relationship between those two stats and risp because risp deals with when players are in position to score and the other stats deal with completely independent situations...but i'd still like to see how high risp players do in those two stats

does that make sense?

That makes some sense but I think what you would just want to look at is how players perform in "high leverage" situations. Those are situations that sound similar to what you are looking for.

I can try to correlate something but I am not sure how I would do it. Let me see what I can run.

Yeah there isn't a good way to do it. Too many parameters have to be met, and I dont feel like figuring out which ones meet up.