All Things Carlos Zambrano Discussion Thread

dabynsky

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Well it just seems like there are apparently only two possible viewpoints on the Cubs. Either everything is all right and everything will be great in the near future or the sky is falling and this team is doomed to forever be a failure. There are some good things going on. At the major league level there is virtually nothing good going on, but this idea that it is impossible for the Cubs to be competitive within a couple of seasons is silly.
 

Jntg4

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My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  2. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Fire
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Chicago State Cougars
  2. DePaul Blue Demons
  3. Illinois-Chicago Flames
  4. Loyola Ramblers
  5. Northern Illinois Huskies
  6. Northwestern Wildcats
And I'm sick of any and all Cubs apologia.

It's been 103 years without winning a championship. Think of all the hall of famers we had at once in the late 60's, early 70's and still never got it done. And it all gets blamed on a damn goat. To make things worse, we aren't winning it anytime soon. It is truly time to rebuild, yet we aren't even doing that like we should be. Reports from MLBTR today said that the Cubs and Pena have mutual interest in him returning too. So we aren't rebuilding, and we aren't going to go after the best there is? That means that we are still stuck in the same spot. The only thing this franchise is doing right is spending on the draft. I also love that we are working to improve our complex in Mesa which is to be shared by Arizona State University, the Chicago Cubs, Mesa Cubs, and Mesa Solar Sox, and our complex in Boca Chica (Dominican Republic), which is to be shared by the DSL Cubs1 and DSL Cubs2, but what about our Chicago Complex? The one that is actually the most important and is used during the regular season. I know there is that whole Wrigley 2014 plan, but look at this mess. It's bound to fall apart mid-season sooner than later, and is a huge hazard to fans and players alike. I don't care about Ricketts meeting his wife there or it's history. You want to know what it's history is? How about losing and failing to win a championship. In fact, the only Chicago baseball team to win a championship in a season in which their home games were played at Wrigley Field was the Chicago Whales of the Federal League, and the FL talent pool was much weaker than either the AL's or the NL's of the time. I'd go as far to say that Wrigley has a better history as a football or soccer stadium than as a baseball stadium. Beyond Starlin Castro, there is no real upside on this team. Might as well become an Iowa Cubs fan, except for the fact that they suck too, but at least they have bright sides like Brett Jackson and Welington Castillo who are only in the minors because of bums like Marlon Byrd and Geovany Soto blocking them. Don't get me wrong, I like Soto, but he is one of the few players who could have net us something and had a replacement ready in the wings over the off-season but we passed on trading him. What makes things worse about the 103 years is that you should expect your team to win abut once every 30 years because there are 30 teams, but when this drought started, that rate would be once every 16 years because there were 16 teams, meaning that we were even worse than if it was always at the rate of once every 30 years. What really disappoints me though, is that this organization is in such bad shape that something has to change, but the Ricketts are too reluctant to even change their General Manager. Zambrano leaving was a change, yes, but that's because that situation blew up in their face. What I am wondering is, how hasn't the situation this franchise is in blown up in their face too?
 

Uman85

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Well it just seems like there are apparently only two possible viewpoints on the Cubs. Either everything is all right and everything will be great in the near future or the sky is falling and this team is doomed to forever be a failure. There are some good things going on. At the major league level there is virtually nothing good going on, but this idea that it is impossible for the Cubs to be competitive within a couple of seasons is silly.

That shouldn't sit well with fans. I've said it time and again, big market teams especially those in Chicago should NEVER have to rebuild. They should be competitive every year. The GMs suck in this city and the fans shouldn't be OK with being competitive after a few losing seasons.
 

CODE_BLUE56

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And I'm sick of any and all Cubs apologia.

It's been 103 years without winning a championship. Think of all the hall of famers we had at once in the late 60's, early 70's and still never got it done. And it all gets blamed on a damn goat. To make things worse, we aren't winning it anytime soon. It is truly time to rebuild, yet we aren't even doing that like we should be. Reports from MLBTR today said that the Cubs and Pena have mutual interest in him returning too. So we aren't rebuilding, and we aren't going to go after the best there is? That means that we are still stuck in the same spot. The only thing this franchise is doing right is spending on the draft. I also love that we are working to improve our complex in Mesa which is to be shared by Arizona State University, the Chicago Cubs, Mesa Cubs, and Mesa Solar Sox, and our complex in Boca Chica (Dominican Republic), which is to be shared by the DSL Cubs1 and DSL Cubs2, but what about our Chicago Complex? The one that is actually the most important and is used during the regular season. I know there is that whole Wrigley 2014 plan, but look at this mess. It's bound to fall apart mid-season sooner than later, and is a huge hazard to fans and players alike. I don't care about Ricketts meeting his wife there or it's history. You want to know what it's history is? How about losing and failing to win a championship. In fact, the only Chicago baseball team to win a championship in a season in which their home games were played at Wrigley Field was the Chicago Whales of the Federal League, and the FL talent pool was much weaker than either the AL's or the NL's of the time. I'd go as far to say that Wrigley has a better history as a football or soccer stadium than as a baseball stadium. Beyond Starlin Castro, there is no real upside on this team. Might as well become an Iowa Cubs fan, except for the fact that they suck too, but at least they have bright sides like Brett Jackson and Welington Castillo who are only in the minors because of bums like Marlon Byrd and Geovany Soto blocking them. Don't get me wrong, I like Soto, but he is one of the few players who could have net us something and had a replacement ready in the wings over the off-season but we passed on trading him. What makes things worse about the 103 years is that you should expect your team to win abut once every 30 years because there are 30 teams, but when this drought started, that rate would be once every 16 years because there were 16 teams, meaning that we were even worse than if it was always at the rate of once every 30 years. What really disappoints me though, is that this organization is in such bad shape that something has to change, but the Ricketts are too reluctant to even change their General Manager. Zambrano leaving was a change, yes, but that's because that situation blew up in their face. What I am wondering is, how hasn't the situation this franchise is in blown up in their face too?

but please, tell me how you REALLY feel

:jackson:
 

dabynsky

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What apology is to say that there are positive things going on right now? This team has been poorly run for most of the past 70 years that combined with a little bad luck is why this team is where it is at. Jim Hendry isn't a good GM, and I want someone who doesn't place so much emphasis on athleticism and tools. But the past 103 years doesn't make it any more or less difficult to win going forward.

The owner is in charge of two things. Providing the resources to build a winning team and hiring the right people to allocate those resources. Ricketts has been successful in half of that so far. This offseason it could change to being both as either successful or a failure, and that outcome will determine whether I will be going the rest of you with your pitchforks.
 

dabynsky

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That shouldn't sit well with fans. I've said it time and again, big market teams especially those in Chicago should NEVER have to rebuild. They should be competitive every year. The GMs suck in this city and the fans shouldn't be OK with being competitive after a few losing seasons.

What don't we get about this? We need to build a team capable of getting to the playoffs in order to even have a chance at winning the world series. Don't get hung up on the words contending and competitive or whatever. The Cubs need to be making the playoffs as often as they can in order to give them the best chance to win the World Series. And the idea that it is impossible for them to do that in the relative future is wrong.
 

Uman85

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And I'm sick of any and all Cubs apologia.

It's been 103 years without winning a championship. Think of all the hall of famers we had at once in the late 60's, early 70's and still never got it done. And it all gets blamed on a damn goat. To make things worse, we aren't winning it anytime soon. It is truly time to rebuild, yet we aren't even doing that like we should be. Reports from MLBTR today said that the Cubs and Pena have mutual interest in him returning too. So we aren't rebuilding, and we aren't going to go after the best there is? That means that we are still stuck in the same spot. The only thing this franchise is doing right is spending on the draft. I also love that we are working to improve our complex in Mesa which is to be shared by Arizona State University, the Chicago Cubs, Mesa Cubs, and Mesa Solar Sox, and our complex in Boca Chica (Dominican Republic), which is to be shared by the DSL Cubs1 and DSL Cubs2, but what about our Chicago Complex? The one that is actually the most important and is used during the regular season. I know there is that whole Wrigley 2014 plan, but look at this mess. It's bound to fall apart mid-season sooner than later, and is a huge hazard to fans and players alike. I don't care about Ricketts meeting his wife there or it's history. You want to know what it's history is? How about losing and failing to win a championship. In fact, the only Chicago baseball team to win a championship in a season in which their home games were played at Wrigley Field was the Chicago Whales of the Federal League, and the FL talent pool was much weaker than either the AL's or the NL's of the time. I'd go as far to say that Wrigley has a better history as a football or soccer stadium than as a baseball stadium. Beyond Starlin Castro, there is no real upside on this team. Might as well become an Iowa Cubs fan, except for the fact that they suck too, but at least they have bright sides like Brett Jackson and Welington Castillo who are only in the minors because of bums like Marlon Byrd and Geovany Soto blocking them. Don't get me wrong, I like Soto, but he is one of the few players who could have net us something and had a replacement ready in the wings over the off-season but we passed on trading him. What makes things worse about the 103 years is that you should expect your team to win abut once every 30 years because there are 30 teams, but when this drought started, that rate would be once every 16 years because there were 16 teams, meaning that we were even worse than if it was always at the rate of once every 30 years. What really disappoints me though, is that this organization is in such bad shape that something has to change, but the Ricketts are too reluctant to even change their General Manager. Zambrano leaving was a change, yes, but that's because that situation blew up in their face. What I am wondering is, how hasn't the situation this franchise is in blown up in their face too?

Post of the thread. :clap:

Close it now.
 

CODE_BLUE56

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That shouldn't sit well with fans. I've said it time and again, big market teams especially those in Chicago should NEVER have to rebuild. They should be competitive every year. The GMs suck in this city and the fans shouldn't be OK with being competitive after a few losing seasons.

we try doing that..but you dont realize that the cubs and white sox are still a notch below the yanks and red sox

and frankly, i disagree with the method of building a team by free agents(really, it works when you can pull in an insane haul of free agents, like the yanks and phils among others do, but you also have to think about how attractive the destination is for the free agents..are the cubs really that attractive for a high level free agent right now..maybe when you think about the market..but compared to the yanks,sox,phils?)

not to mention free agents are not always young and long term investments..they can leave easily..might have issues adjusting to the team..peak for a year then start to decline..you see it all

the foundation of most teams(if not all) should be on a reliable farm system that can bring in long term investment prospects that you dont have to overpay for

that doesnt mean i think the cubs shouldnt try to get some high level guys in free agency..but we should not try to solely build our team through those guys at expense of our farm system..
 
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Uman85

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we try doing that..but you dont realize that the cubs and white sox are still a notch below the yanks and red sox

and frankly, i disagree with the method of building a team by free agents(really, it works when you can pull in an insane haul of free agents, like the yanks and phils among others do, but you also have to think about how attractive the destination is for the free agents..are the cubs really that attractive for a high level free agent right now..maybe when you think about the market..but compared to the yanks,sox,phils?)

not to mention free agents are not always young and long term investments..they can leave easily..might have issues adjusting to the team..peak for a year then start to decline..you see it all

the foundation of most teams(if not all) should be on a reliable farm system that can bring in long term investment prospects that you dont have to overpay for

The Cubs and Sox haven't tried doing that in the past. It's part of the reason why they didn't win jack in 80+ years.

They're only a notch below those two because those teams spend money to WIN and have a winning atmosphere. Chicago's two teams have been too cheap in the past to spend which is inexcusable.

You can't tell me Chicago isn't a place where a FA doesn't want to go. Maybe because of Wrigley Field, but not because of the fans and the city itself. I don't buy that at all.
 

Diddy1122

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The owner is in charge of two things. Providing the resources to build a winning team and hiring the right people to allocate those resources. Ricketts has been successful in half of that so far.

Ummm...which half? Ricketts has done NOTHING, that's right, NOTHING since becoming team owner. He got a Santo statue made, which is an absolute no-brainer. What resources has he put in place? Money? And how was that spent the previous off-season.

Ricketts is trash & it's time ALL Cub fans start realizing this. If the Ricketts family really cared about winning & changing the losing culture at Wrigley, Hendry, Kenney, & that entire FO would have been gone from day 1. But what do expect from a guy who wants to keep the troughs at Wrigley because they are a part of the "Wrigley Experience".
gtfo22.gif
 

CODE_BLUE56

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The Cubs and Sox haven't tried doing that in the past. It's part of the reason why they didn't win jack in 80+ years.

They're only a notch below those two because those teams spend money to WIN and have a winning atmosphere. Chicago's two teams have been too cheap in the past to spend which is inexcusable.

You can't tell me Chicago isn't a place where a FA doesn't want to go. Maybe because of Wrigley Field, but not because of the fans and the city itself. I don't buy that at all.

i never said that..i just think its dumb to build a team based on free agents

and you cant compare free agency in the far past to now..completely apples and oranges...

if i'm looking at the relative past..i do not like the results from trying to build a team by overpaying a bunch of veterans(hendry)

doesnt mean,again, that the cubs shouldnt go after free agents, but not at expense of the real foundation, the farm system

you can argue part of the issue with us not being able to rely on the free agents right now is that we have an incompetent personnel with hendry(i dont want him grossly overpaying some guys who will peak in a year and then be a detriment since he will be here next year..f)
 

Uman85

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i never said that..i just think its dumb to build a team based on free agents

and you cant compare free agency in the far past to now..completely apples and oranges...

if i'm looking at the relative past..i do not like the results from trying to build a team by overpaying a bunch of veterans(hendry)

doesnt mean,again, that the cubs shouldnt go after free agents, but not at expense of the real foundation, the farm system

you can argue part of the issue with us not being able to rely on the free agents right now is that we have an incompetent personnel with hendry(and if he stays...i dont want him grossly overpaying some guys who will peak in a year and then be a detriment)

I never said they should go after free agents either. Boston and New York are consistently successful in large part to their farm system, which they've built through good scouting and drafting. That is the first thing that needs to be fixed for both teams.
 

dabynsky

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Ummm...which half? Ricketts has done NOTHING, that's right, NOTHING since becoming team owner. He got a Santo statue made, which is an absolute no-brainer. What resources has he put in place? Money? And how was that spent the previous off-season.

Ricketts is trash & it's time ALL Cub fans start realizing this. If the Ricketts family really cared about winning & changing the losing culture at Wrigley, Hendry, Kenney, & that entire FO would have been gone from day 1. But what do expect from a guy who wants to keep the troughs at Wrigley because they are a part of "Wrigley Experience".
You want to ignore the things that he has done fine. I didn't say he was perfect, and I didn't say that my opinion couldn't change. However, he has done several things that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox do to remain competitive for a long time. The Cubs have spent more on acquiring amateur talent than at any point in time. A few outside sources have suggested that the Cubs draft might have been the best in baseball this year (rating drafts at this time is a little silly but it is worth noting). The Cubs are maintaining two teams in the DSL and are building a baseball academy there. Yes I know that doesn't make this debacle at the major league level all better, but that is the point I am trying to make here. I don't think everything is great and I don't think the sky is falling. The truth I believe lies in the middle.
 
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CODE_BLUE56

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I never said they should go after free agents either. Boston and New York are consistently successful in large part to their farm system, which they've built through good scouting and drafting. That is the first thing that needs to be fixed for both teams.

seems you are implying it:shrug:

anywho i think we can both agree the bigger issue is not necessarily going out and shoveling cash..but the competence of the personnel being able to balance the farm system as well as go out and make smart moves and spend cash well in correspondence to the respective market size
 

Uman85

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seems you are implying it:shrug:

anywho i think we can both agree the bigger issue is not necessarily going out and shoveling cash..but the competence of the personnel being able to balance the farm system as well as go out and make smart moves and spend cash well in correspondence to the respective market size

Not at all. Speaking of the organizations as a whole, from top down. Front offices need to be revamped and farm systems built up through efficient drafting. Building a team on free agents past their prime and paying them out the nose is what got the Cubs in the mess they're currently in to a point with Soriano, Zambrano, etc. and the Sox with Dunn.
 

dabynsky

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Not at all. Speaking of the organizations as a whole, from top down. Front offices need to be revamped and farm systems built up through efficient drafting. Building a team on free agents past their prime and paying them out the nose is what got the Cubs in the mess they're currently in to a point with Soriano, Zambrano, etc. and the Sox with Dunn.

While I don't disagree with the sentiment, Zambrano is actually an example of a player the Cubs developed.
 

CODE_BLUE56

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Not at all. Speaking of the organizations as a whole, from top down. Front offices need to be revamped and farm systems built up through efficient drafting. Building a team on free agents past their prime and paying them out the nose is what got the Cubs in the mess they're currently in to a point with Soriano, Zambrano, etc. and the Sox with Dunn.

wouldnt call zam a free agent in this case necessarily although we did end up paying a little much for him

but i dont disagree with what you said at all

LMAO...dabynsky basically made the exact same post
 

Uman85

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While I don't disagree with the sentiment, Zambrano is actually an example of a player the Cubs developed.

That's true. He was a good development, but the salary they have given him is what I'm alluding to.
 

dabynsky

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wouldnt call zam a free agent in this case necessarily although we did end up paying a little much for him

but i dont disagree with what you said at all

LMAO...dabynsky basically made the exact same post

As usually I am just faster than you.
 

Uman85

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A round of applause for discussion without name-calling and insults. Although we mostly agreed.

:clap:
 

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