Anyone watching Westworld - HBO original series

[number51]

Maybe it is still coming or I missed it, but what is the deal with William's wife's suicide?

I kept thinking a big reveal was coming.... or the stuff about his darkness.... like they would show that he actually murdered her and the suicide was faked.

She saw how dark and fucked up he was in the park.... she was a depressed substance abuser....she didn't want to go back to rehab... she killed herself.

That is exactly what happened, she heard Williams confession, saw his data, left the info for her daughter, and offed herself. That was the reveal.

Side note: Does anyone else find it extremely implausible that William was shot that many times and survived with only the most rudimentary of medical care? I don't care if the time stuff means it has maybe only been a few hours.... he was shot like 6 times.... dude has to be a fucking host.

He is absolutely a host, cutting into his forearm at the end, just like Bernard. Some genius called that shit 2 weeks ago.

If William, the "Man in Black" survives all those gunshots, he's not human.

#calledit

Called something else.

On at least two occasions Ford contacted William through hosts. Ford as a child host and El Lazo (Gus Fring bandito) host, that is why William keeps thinking everyone (his daughter and Maeve) is actually Ford trolling him from inside the system. William is right about what Ford is doing, but he is loosing it by thinking every host is Ford messing with him. The same way some posters think everybody is a Novak alt, just being paranoid.

So this paranoid robot kills his daughter. Great episode, can't wait for season finale, the return of Maeve.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Three different things we are talking about to clarify.

1) Who knew Arnold ever existed?
2) Who knew Bernard was a host version of Arnold
3) Who new BErnard was a host (but had no idea he was modeled after Arnold)?

1) William (the MIB) Logan, Maybe Theresa
2) Ford, maybe the MIB
3) William, Theresa, Stubbs did for sure (remember the security detail on the Beach where he "rescued" bernard? Not sure how long they knew though.

I think you need to rewatch the beach scene. They never identify Bernard as a host; they were walking up and the one chick tells him to keep his hands where she can see them, and before they even get close Stubbs walks up and says "whoa, whoa, whoa...you going to shoot the boss?" Then the chick shuffles through her cards of high priority guests/employees they're supposed to be rescuing and Bernard is in there.

Essentially, you pulled your entire version of that scene directly out of your rectum.

Edit: here, let me help...

[video=youtube;DMWzFGWqPTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMWzFGWqPTE[/video]

So, again, Felix repairs Bernard after he brains himself, so he's the only living human to know Bernard is a host at the end of S1/beginning of S2.

You seem to be operating under the presumption that I made a statement of when they became aware that Bernard was a host. clearly I did not as emphasized here:

3) William, Theresa, Stubbs did for sure (remember the security detail on the Beach where he "rescued" bernard? Not sure how long they knew though.

Probably would have come off better if I had said "do" instead of "did" And I did say:

At least that was my take on the scene (hell could be wrong).

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

That is exactly what happened, she heard Williams confession, saw his data, left the info for her daughter, and offed herself. That was the reveal.



He is absolutely a host, cutting into his forearm at the end, just like Bernard. Some genius called that shit 2 weeks ago.



#calledit

Called something else.



So this paranoid robot kills his daughter. Great episode, can't wait for season finale, the return of Maeve.

There is nothing that explicitly shows he's a host. When he cuts his arm, you just see blood, but this is clearly left open ended. And he was shown as clear by the Delos security scan.

I think the the MIB being a host would hurt the story for a number of reasons:

A) It's a reused plot twist. Yes, part of the concept of Westworld is that the line becomes very blurred as to who is human and who is AI, but playing the same trope of "he was a host the whole time!" gets old and becomes cheap writing very quickly. It worked well with Arnold because you didn't see it coming. Now you're expecting it, and there's "hints" that it's true, and it doesn't have the same effect.

B) It confirms William's paranoia, which is contradictory to the clear damage that the paranoia has done to his psyche and those around him. He kills humans and (potentially) his daughter due to this paranoia*. He is consumed by the game Ford has played and consumed in this different world, and the writers are pulling you into his descent into darkness, essentially.

It is a clear contrast to the AI who feel human, William is a human that honestly feels more like an AI. Again, it's about the lines being blurred between humanity and AI. It works both ways.


*Regarding Emily: I am skeptical of her being dead, realistically she probably would be, but she wasn't directly hit by the bullets and she plays an important role in this story, she seemed quickly offed. I think she gets rescued. I could be wrong though.


C) Now you have to explain what happened to the OG William. Did he die? Likely. When did he die? How did he die? How did Ford replace him? Why did Ford do this? Could be explained next episode, but now you have more shit to explain on top of everything else and it makes Ford seem all that more ridiculously powerful(which,ok, he is).


In summation, I don't think he's a host and I think that would be a bad move on the writer's part to make him so.


With all of this said, I agree with Ares that realistically the MIB should be dead if he's human, dude survived a number of gunshot wounds and seemed to recover pretty well.

 

[number51]

There is nothing that explicitly shows he's a host. When he cuts his arm, you just see blood, but this is clearly left open ended. And he was shown as clear by the Delos security scan.

I think the the MIB being a host would hurt the story for a number of reasons:

A) It's a reused plot twist. Yes, part of the concept of Westworld is that the line becomes very blurred as to who is human and who is AI, but playing the same trope of "he was a host the whole time!" gets old and becomes cheap writing very quickly. It worked well with Arnold because you didn't see it coming. Now you're expecting it, and there's "hints" that it's true, and it doesn't have the same effect.

B) It confirms William's paranoia, which is contradictory to the clear damage that the paranoia has done to his psyche and those around him. He kills humans and (potentially) his daughter due to this paranoia*. He is consumed by the game Ford has played and consumed in this different world, and the writers are pulling you into his descent into darkness, essentially.

It is a clear contrast to the AI who feel human, William is a human that honestly feels more like an AI. Again, it's about the lines being blurred between humanity and AI. It works both ways.


*Regarding Emily: I am skeptical of her being dead, realistically she probably would be, but she wasn't directly hit by the bullets and she plays an important role in this story, she seemed quickly offed. I think she gets rescued. I could be wrong though.


C) Now you have to explain what happened to the OG William. Did he die? Likely. When did he die? How did he die? How did Ford replace him? Why did Ford do this? Could be explained next episode, but now you have more shit to explain on top of everything else and it makes Ford seem all that more ridiculously powerful(which,ok, he is).


In summation, I don't think he's a host and I think that would be a bad move on the writer's part to make him so.


With all of this said, I agree with Ares that realistically the MIB should be dead if he's human, dude survived a number of gunshot wounds and seemed to recover pretty well.

So, why is he cutting his arm in the same place Arnold did?
Humans heal up from 6 gunshot wounds by drinking water?
I agree making William a bot would be a bad move, I just don't see any other answers.

The good news is that wasn't the season finale, we won't have to wait a year to find out.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

So, why is he cutting his arm in the same place Arnold did?

He is likely familiar with that location as an access point for hosts. He doesn't know if he's a host or not, which is why he's cutting himself at that point.

Humans heal up from 6 gunshot wounds by drinking water?

Obviously not. This is the one thing that is bothering me if he is indeed human. Not sure what the deal is here.

I agree making William a bot would be a bad move, I just don't see any other answers.

The good news is that wasn't the season finale, we won't have to wait a year to find out.

Guess we'll just have to see.

 

[nc0gnet0]

There is nothing that explicitly shows he's a host. When he cuts his arm, you just see blood, but this is clearly left open ended. And he was shown as clear by the Delos security scan.

I think the the MIB being a host would hurt the story for a number of reasons:

A) It's a reused plot twist. Yes, part of the concept of Westworld is that the line becomes very blurred as to who is human and who is AI, but playing the same trope of "he was a host the whole time!" gets old and becomes cheap writing very quickly. It worked well with Arnold because you didn't see it coming. Now you're expecting it, and there's "hints" that it's true, and it doesn't have the same effect.

B) It confirms William's paranoia, which is contradictory to the clear damage that the paranoia has done to his psyche and those around him. He kills humans and (potentially) his daughter due to this paranoia*. He is consumed by the game Ford has played and consumed in this different world, and the writers are pulling you into his descent into darkness, essentially.

It is a clear contrast to the AI who feel human, William is a human that honestly feels more like an AI. Again, it's about the lines being blurred between humanity and AI. It works both ways.


*Regarding Emily: I am skeptical of her being dead, realistically she probably would be, but she wasn't directly hit by the bullets and she plays an important role in this story, she seemed quickly offed. I think she gets rescued. I could be wrong though.


C) Now you have to explain what happened to the OG William. Did he die? Likely. When did he die? How did he die? How did Ford replace him? Why did Ford do this? Could be explained next episode, but now you have more shit to explain on top of everything else and it makes Ford seem all that more ridiculously powerful(which,ok, he is).


In summation, I don't think he's a host and I think that would be a bad move on the writer's part to make him so.


With all of this said, I agree with Ares that realistically the MIB should be dead if he's human, dude survived a number of gunshot wounds and seemed to recover pretty well.

To be clear, the scan is for explosive devices, all hosts have them implanted to insure if they leave the park, they die. But a few hosts have had them removed, or at least de-activated in the past.

A while ago, we were told that there was one human-host hybrid in the park. Could William be that Hybrid (like James Delos, except it worked)?

As for William being a host, I agree it seems to cheapen the story, but then again, it makes sense. William was the driving force into the Delos $$ being pumped into the park. If he died (or for that matter had a change of heart about WW), it would make sense for Ford to replace him to keep the $$ flowing.

That said, I don't think he is a host at all. The book in which he placed his profile card is a tell tale sign of what is going on with him (slaughterhouse 5)

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

To be clear, the scan is for explosive devices, all hosts have them implanted to insure if they leave the park, they die. But a few hosts have had them removed, or at least de-activated in the past.

Hmmm ok. I don't recall, which hosts have had them removed?

A while ago, we were told that there was one human-host hybrid in the park. Could William be that Hybrid (like James Delos, except it worked)?

I honestly dont remember this either. I need to watch more recaps. It's possible that's William is the person they're talking about.

As for William being a host, I agree it seems to cheapen the story, but then again, it makes sense. William was the driving force into the Delos $$ being pumped into the park. If he died (or for that matter had a change of heart about WW), it would make sense for Ford to replace him to keep the $$ flowing.

That said, I don't think he is a host at all. The book in which he placed his profile card is a tell tale sign of what is going on with him (slaughterhouse 5)

I see what you're saying, so I guess it comes down to the circumstances regarding his death or disappearance, which are seemingly pretty clandestine considering no one in his immediate family seems to know. I would guess it probably comes later in his life. I imagine it took some time to fully figure out consciouness transfer.

On that note, I thought it was interesting that William and co. never seemed to figure out how to properly transfer consciousness to the older Delos after 30 years or so. I get that it's really fucking complicated, but they went from the ability to transfer to essentially not making any progress at all after that. Didn't seem like they were really trying. Almost like denying the older Delos immortality.

It's possible William and others figured it out, and were just fucking with the older Delos. IDK.

 

[number51]

On that note, I thought it was interesting that William and co. never seemed to figure out how to properly transfer consciousness to the older Delos after 30 years or so. I get that it's really fucking complicated, but they went from the ability to transfer to essentially not making any progress at all after that. Didn't seem like they were really trying. Almost like denying the older Delos immortality.

It's possible William and others figured it out, and were just fucking with the older Delos. IDK.

Maybe they were using old Delos as a lab rat, kept trying and burning him up after every failure. If it did finally work would William really want the old guy back, plus after all that time, how would they explain the old guys return? Just burn the functioning rat.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Hmmm ok. I don't recall, which hosts have had them removed?

Maeve is the only one I am sure had hers removed. But Delores, Akecheta, and a few others have been outside the park in the past (maybe it was just de-activated).

I honestly dont remember this either. I need to watch more recaps. It's possible that's William is the person they're talking about.

Shortly after Bernard discovered James Delos, he remembers that ford told him of another hybrid in the park. This could be Berard himself(could it? would he count as a hybrid?) or the MIB, or yet someone else.

I see what you're saying, so I guess it comes down to the circumstances regarding his death or disappearance, which are seemingly pretty clandestine considering no one in his immediate family seems to know. I would guess it probably comes later in his life. I imagine it took some time to fully figure out consciouness transfer.

I don't think it is the case, but it can see why it might be.

On that note, I thought it was interesting that William and co. never seemed to figure out how to properly transfer consciousness to the older Delos after 30 years or so. I get that it's really fucking complicated, but they went from the ability to transfer to essentially not making any progress at all after that. Didn't seem like they were really trying. Almost like denying the older Delos immortality.

Kinda like Organ transplant/rejection. I think the big problem is the way it is transferred, and needs to be done slowly over time, not a full data dump into a host.

It's possible William and others figured it out, and were just fucking with the older Delos. IDK.

Not sure, personally, I don't think Bernard is the same type of creation that james Delos was/is. to me, Bernard is just a host that was made in Arnold's image, Where delos was that actual mans conscienceless in a host body. .

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Maeve is the only one I am sure had hers removed. But Delores, Akecheta, and a few others have been outside the park in the past (maybe it was just de-activated).

Oh, right, yea all of the hosts that were with Logan when Delos was originally looking to invest in Ford's tech. Now it's coming back to me. I think at that point they may not have had the device installed. Not sure. Delores' could be deactivated.

Shortly after Bernard discovered James Delos, he remembers that ford told him of another hybrid in the park. This could be Berard himself(could it? would he count as a hybrid?) or the MIB, or yet someone else.

Don't think it's Bernard, since he doesn't really have Arnold's consciousness, only his memories(?, stuff from season 1 I don't fully recall).

Kinda like Organ transplant/rejection. I think the big problem is the way it is transferred, and needs to be done slowly over time, not a full data dump into a host.

Possibly. I would imagine some solution could be found in 30 years considering they had already established the ability to transfer in the first place. Or at least some improvements.

Not sure, personally, I don't think Bernard is the same type of creation that james Delos was/is. to me, Bernard is just a host that was made in Arnold's image, Where delos was that actual mans conscienceless in a host body. .

Yea, I agree. I don't think Bernard is a manifestation of proper consciousness transfer. He's pretty much all AI with Arnold mimicry.

 

[Ares]

I keep wondering when/if Ashley/Elsie are going to play a meaningful role in the story.

 

[clonetrooper264]

I keep wondering when/if Ashley/Elsie are going to play a meaningful role in the story.

Elsie's role just seems to be getting abandoned somewhere

 

[ZOMBIE@CTESPN]

Fell asleep watching the finale twice. Going to attempt to watch it again tonight

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

What are y'alls thoughts on the post-credits scene?

 

[Tjodalv]

What are y'alls thoughts on the post-credits scene?

It's too far in the future for it to be the "original" William, so either the one in S2 was a bot or he gets ported into one after the end of the timeline in which Dolores escaped the park. Just from the state of the facility it's pretty clear that quite some time has passed. Maybe he keeps reliving the loop of his final days in the park/what he did to old man Delos as a form of punishment? Maybe he goes insane (more so) due to the endlessness of immortality? A commentary on the drawbacks of a deathless existence seems like something Nolan and Joy would delve into given their propensity for philosophical pondering. Who knows though. Joy basically said in an interview that "we'll get there eventually," insinuating that the rest of the story line (hosts in the real world, struggle of the species, etc.) will likely be played out before they get to the point that scene occurred in.

 

[number51]

From June 4th:

If William, the "Man in Black" survives all those gunshots, he's not human. I know he has those super advanced futuristic med packs but come on, video game shit.

Just stop, he's a bot.

 

[clonetrooper264]

It's too far in the future for it to be the "original" William, so either the one in S2 was a bot or he gets ported into one after the end of the timeline in which Dolores escaped the park. Just from the state of the facility it's pretty clear that quite some time has passed. Maybe he keeps reliving the loop of his final days in the park/what he did to old man Delos as a form of punishment? Maybe he goes insane (more so) due to the endlessness of immortality? A commentary on the drawbacks of a deathless existence seems like something Nolan and Joy would delve into given their propensity for philosophical pondering. Who knows though. Joy basically said in an interview that "we'll get there eventually," insinuating that the rest of the story line (hosts in the real world, struggle of the species, etc.) will likely be played out before they get to the point that scene occurred in.

This is probably accurate. I'm inclined to think that for the most part the William we saw in S2 was human, there was even a scanning scene that confirmed so, but he is likely reliving those memories in a loop by the time the post credit scene comes around. Definitely appears that the post credit scene is in the future.

 

[RoseMVP1]

I thought season 2 picked up more those last 2 episodes. Still enjoyed season 1 more.

 

[Ares]

This is probably accurate. I'm inclined to think that for the most part the William we saw in S2 was human, there was even a scanning scene that confirmed so, but he is likely reliving those memories in a loop by the time the post credit scene comes around. Definitely appears that the post credit scene is in the future.

So... human William got shot a dozen times and survived with just rudimentary medical care?

He could not have been human during those parts.

 

[clonetrooper264]

So... human William got shot a dozen times and survived with just rudimentary medical care?

He could not have been human during those parts.

Yeah that part does seem rather improbable. Perhaps the William we saw during S2 was a host the whole time reliving the loop from the actual event. Certainly real William seemed to survive the ordeal as he's shown on the beach, but perhaps he wasn't shot quite as much in reality. It's hard to say because the timelines are so trippy.