are you sure you want to get rid of Joahkim?

[TheStig]

pinkizdead wrote:

TheStig wrote:

pinkizdead wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

houh


While we are at it, why don't we just swap out Deng for James and Noah for Howard? Granger is their franchise player, he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

unless something drastic happens through the lottery, that indiana team is crap. more than anyone else i think they'd take cap relief. they're loosing money, and they can afford anyone. We'd have to find a diamond in the rough with our draft picks, so it's unlikely, but they might pull the same move as the Sacramento kings with kevin martin. All we need is time, luck, and an expiring contract.

How is trading equal contracts and getting a late pick or two cap relief? Beisdes they have a ton of cap space after this upcoming year. They aren't trading Granger and will retool around him with expirings and cap space.

 

[Shakes]

pinkizdead wrote:

i agree. duncan is much worse than kobe at the moment, but eh... i dont believe you that some1 made the argument. no one could suggest such a thing.

The initial argument was that Hou said he thought Stig knew nothing about basketball because he wouldn't have Kobe in his top 5 players. I replied with 5 players who, off the top of my head, I didn't think it was insane to think might be better than Kobe this year. Duncan was one of them.

I'll stick by that: the Spurs and Lakers are about the same quality of team (yes, the Lakers won 7 more games, but the points differential actually slightly favors the Spurs). The Lakers would seem to be a much better team on paper, especially given Tony Parker was out and played injured for a large chunk of games. There has to be some reason why the Spurs have stayed good.

And give me a break about people saying Duncan is past it. Have you looked at the percentages Kobe shot this year? Down across the board. Yet it's blasphemy to suggest maybe Kobe is aging, oh no the second coming of Jesus in LA can not be questioned. If our beloved Bulls' SG shot sub 33% from three for the season we'd never hear the end of it, Kobe can jack up over 300 and nobody stops and says "hey, this guy actually kinda sucks at three point shooting, why is he doing it?"

 

[clonetrooper264]

Shakes wrote:

pinkizdead wrote:

i agree. duncan is much worse than kobe at the moment, but eh... i dont believe you that some1 made the argument. no one could suggest such a thing.

The initial argument was that Hou said he thought Stig knew nothing about basketball because he wouldn't have Kobe in his top 5 players. I replied with 5 players who, off the top of my head, I didn't think it was insane to think might be better than Kobe this year. Duncan was one of them.

I'll stick by that: the Spurs and Lakers are about the same quality of team (yes, the Lakers won 7 more games, but the points differential actually slightly favors the Spurs). The Lakers would seem to be a much better team on paper, especially given Tony Parker was out and played injured for a large chunk of games. There has to be some reason why the Spurs have stayed good.

And give me a break about people saying Duncan is past it. Have you looked at the percentages Kobe shot this year? Down across the board. Yet it's blasphemy to suggest maybe Kobe is aging, oh no the second coming of Jesus in LA can not be questioned. If our beloved Bulls' SG shot sub 33% from three for the season we'd never hear the end of it, Kobe can jack up over 300 and nobody stops and says "hey, this guy actually kinda sucks at three point shooting, why is he doing it?"

Obviously it's because he's clutch, so that covers for everything.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

Funnily enough, my team included a 20/10 big man: David Lee.

Look, if you're going to say it's easy to find a defensive center, you need to name someone of equal quality. The drop off from Noah to the guys you name is pretty huge. I'm not trying to sell Lee or Boozer as being as good as Bosh, so why is it OK to name inferior players to Noah as the counter argument? Noah is a borderline top 5 player at his position, you're saying we can just replace him with guys who are barely starters(and in Przybilla's case, not even that). It's not quite saying Gordon wont have a spot in the rotation with Pargo here, but it's along the same lines.

Obviously my first choice is to keep Noah and get Bosh. But if giving up Noah is what it takes to get Bosh, I think we're a better team with Amare + Noah, or Lee + *** + Noah than with Bosh alone.

Lee isn't putting up 20/10 next year unless NY really messes up this offseason.

I agree their is a big drop but Bosh's skill set is much more valuable, especially to this team. Noah is a really nice player but he isn't a superstar and never will be. That was my point. Noah is not a top 5 player at his postion. Otherwise he would have been an allstar.

I agree, if it came down to Noah + Amare or just bosh. I take Noah and Amare but I just don't see lee and *** as feasible. I'd take a lesser talent but other than lee, I just don't see anyone really being available, most of these guys are looking like they will resign except for boozer and lee. If it came to boozer/lee and noah or bosh, I'd probably go with bosh.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Seriously this again. Is there any doubt that the Lakers championship teams have had a lot more to work with and still only won as many titles as the Spurs did in the last decade. Duncan has never played with a top 15 player in the league, Kobe won the majority of his titles as the #2 to the most dominant player in the game at the time.

Duncan never played with a top 15 player? What was David Robinson, chopped liver? He still made the all-NBA third team in Duncan's 4th year. And IMO Manu was a top 15 player for several years as well. Parker won the finals MVP in their last championship too.

I don't think the Spurs have had the depth the Lakers have had, but Duncan's sidekicks have been good.

David Robinson had a good year left as a 20/10 big when duncan got there. He probably still was a top 15 guy the first year but was trailing off since. Manu and Parker were never top 15 players imo, maybe sneaking in here or there but they aren't the guys kobe played with. No one even comes close to shaq and thats not even including eddie jones, glenn rice, pau gasol, karl malone or gary payton. Not all those guys were top 15 players but shaq was always top 5 as a laker.

 

[pinkizdead]

TheStig wrote:

pinkizdead wrote:

TheStig wrote:

pinkizdead wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

houh


While we are at it, why don't we just swap out Deng for James and Noah for Howard? Granger is their franchise player, he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

unless something drastic happens through the lottery, that indiana team is crap. more than anyone else i think they'd take cap relief. they're loosing money, and they can afford anyone. We'd have to find a diamond in the rough with our draft picks, so it's unlikely, but they might pull the same move as the Sacramento kings with kevin martin. All we need is time, luck, and an expiring contract.

How is trading equal contracts and getting a late pick or two cap relief? Beisdes they have a ton of cap space after this upcoming year. They aren't trading Granger and will retool around him with expirings and cap space.

i was hoping we could trade deng for an expriing or pull in an expiring.

alright fine. new plan.

win the lottery.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Seriously this again. Is there any doubt that the Lakers championship teams have had a lot more to work with and still only won as many titles as the Spurs did in the last decade. Duncan has never played with a top 15 player in the league, Kobe won the majority of his titles as the #2 to the most dominant player in the game at the time.

Duncan never played with a top 15 player? What was David Robinson, chopped liver? He still made the all-NBA third team in Duncan's 4th year. And IMO Manu was a top 15 player for several years as well. Parker won the finals MVP in their last championship too.

I don't think the Spurs have had the depth the Lakers have had, but Duncan's sidekicks have been good.

David Robinson had a good year left as a 20/10 big when duncan got there. He probably still was a top 15 guy the first year but was trailing off since. Manu and Parker were never top 15 players imo, maybe sneaking in here or there but they aren't the guys kobe played with. No one even comes close to shaq and thats not even including eddie jones, glenn rice, pau gasol, karl malone or gary payton. Not all those guys were top 15 players but shaq was always top 5 as a laker.

The Lakers have had more talent, no disputing that, I'm just saying it's not like Duncan had no talent for most of his time. Although I'll give you the 02-03 championship, outside of Hakeem in 93-94 that's got to be the worst championship supporting cast in the NBA.

 

[pinkizdead]

Shakes wrote:

pinkizdead wrote:

i agree. duncan is much worse than kobe at the moment, but eh... i dont believe you that some1 made the argument. no one could suggest such a thing.

The initial argument was that Hou said he thought Stig knew nothing about basketball because he wouldn't have Kobe in his top 5 players. I replied with 5 players who, off the top of my head, I didn't think it was insane to think might be better than Kobe this year. Duncan was one of them.

I'll stick by that: the Spurs and Lakers are about the same quality of team (yes, the Lakers won 7 more games, but the points differential actually slightly favors the Spurs). The Lakers would seem to be a much better team on paper, especially given Tony Parker was out and played injured for a large chunk of games. There has to be some reason why the Spurs have stayed good.

And give me a break about people saying Duncan is past it. Have you looked at the percentages Kobe shot this year? Down across the board. Yet it's blasphemy to suggest maybe Kobe is aging, oh no the second coming of Jesus in LA can not be questioned. If our beloved Bulls' SG shot sub 33% from three for the season we'd never hear the end of it, Kobe can jack up over 300 and nobody stops and says "hey, this guy actually kinda sucks at three point shooting, why is he doing it?"

i'm not a kobe fan. I'd say dirk is playing much better this year, but it seemed painfully evident that duncan has lost a step.

can you really compare the averages for a sg and a pf? i'm not sure you can compare the stats without taking into account the different things they're asked to do. Where they shoot from etc. Frankly, i think manu is playing like the best player on spurs team, so i'd argue manu might be playing better than kobe.

i guess a disctinction can be made between being the best player and playing better than kobe. Given duncans level of play, you could argue that he's playing way better than kobe. i'd agree. In terms of overall talent, i'd say kobe is better than him. On the other hand i think duncan in his prime was better than kobe in his prime. the guy just played the right way. he had the poise to play damn good basketball.

i dont think kobe is a top 5 player tis year( lebron, durant, melo, williams, and i guess the last spot could be kobe/wae/dirk/duncan.

On a related note, kobe is shooting his team in sucking and being so passive that his team sucks. Now that's real talent.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

I agree, if it came down to Noah + Amare or just bosh. I take Noah and Amare but I just don't see lee and *** as feasible. I'd take a lesser talent but other than lee, I just don't see anyone really being available, most of these guys are looking like they will resign except for boozer and lee. If it came to boozer/lee and noah or bosh, I'd probably go with bosh.

Well I'm assuming we can get Lee at a price that leaves us enough cap room to sign someone else (or use to facilitate a trade). If it's Lee + Noah with no further moves that becomes a much harder position to support.

I do think it's a moot point anyway because why the heck does Bosh want to come to the Bulls minus their second best player? We've debated whether we would or wouldn't trade Noah for Bosh, but I don't think anyone has given a good reason as to why Bosh would come here if we're trading Noah.

 

[pinkizdead]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

The Lakers have had more talent, no disputing that, I'm just saying it's not like Duncan had no talent for most of his time. Although I'll give you the 02-03 championship, outside of Hakeem in 93-94 that's got to be the worst championship supporting cast in the NBA.

i was just thinking that. duncan parker and ginobli all had to score 30 pts a game to make their games competitive. i think that definately has to be considered in determining the better player

On the other hand, RIGHT NOW, duncan was held w/o a fg against Dirk. the mavs aren't great defensively. the guy's getting old. it's hard to deny that.

 

[pinkizdead]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

I agree, if it came down to Noah + Amare or just bosh. I take Noah and Amare but I just don't see lee and *** as feasible. I'd take a lesser talent but other than lee, I just don't see anyone really being available, most of these guys are looking like they will resign except for boozer and lee. If it came to boozer/lee and noah or bosh, I'd probably go with bosh.

Well I'm assuming we can get Lee at a price that leaves us enough cap room to sign someone else (or use to facilitate a trade). If it's Lee + Noah with no further moves that becomes a much harder position to support.

I do think it's a moot point anyway because why the heck does Bosh want to come to the Bulls minus their second best player? We've debated whether we would or wouldn't trade Noah for Bosh, but I don't think anyone has given a good reason as to why Bosh would come here if we're trading Noah.

i agree 100 %!

this team would be complete garbage w/o noah.

In fact we were complete garbage w/o noah. Do you think adding bosh in would really make this team better w/o our best defensive player?

 

[Shakes]

Duncan's playoffs have been well below his standard, but given how Kobe's playoffs have been, I don't think it's Duncan who comes off looking worse.

I agree it's hard to compare a SG and a PF, which is one of the reasons I think Duncan wins the comparison. Kobe can score more, but defensively a SG just can't do what a good defensive big man can do. Duncan isn't the old Duncan, but even if he's not as quick he's not going to ever forget how to play solid defense. He's also not going to forget how to box out and rebound. I just think a good big is more valuable. I'm not going to say anyone is insane if they think Kobe is better enough offensively that you'd prefer him, but personally I think Duncan's defensive contribution puts him ahead.

 

[houheffna]

i agree 100 %!

this team would be complete garbage w/o noah.

In fact we were complete garbage w/o noah. Do you think adding bosh in would really make this team better w/o our best defensive player?

You wouldn't think so because you called one of the best players in the league a "pick and pop guy"...you sounded like a drunk Raftery going off on a tangent in an ACC game. If you know anything about Bosh, how can you say this team would be WORSE without Noah and adding Bosh? Bosh is a better player THAN ANYBODY ON THE DAMN TEAM!!!

 

[houheffna]

I agree it's hard to compare a SG and a PF, which is one of the reasons I think Duncan wins the comparison. Kobe can score more, but defensively a SG just can't do what a good defensive big man can do. Duncan isn't the old Duncan, but even if he's not as quick he's not going to ever forget how to play solid defense. He's also not going to forget how to box out and rebound. I just think a good big is more valuable. I'm not going to say anyone is insane if they think Kobe is better enough offensively that you'd prefer him, but personally I think Duncan's defensive contribution puts him ahead.

If you are going to make that argument, it would be more believable if you said that Howard or Bosh were better. But Duncan? He is not even top 10 anymore. Who's next? Garnett?

Kobe is solid top 5 in the league right now. That is blatantly obvious. And Kobe can't play solid defense? Kobe has been top 5 in MVP voting over the last 5 years, that is definitely not the case with Duncan at this point.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

I agree it's hard to compare a SG and a PF, which is one of the reasons I think Duncan wins the comparison. Kobe can score more, but defensively a SG just can't do what a good defensive big man can do. Duncan isn't the old Duncan, but even if he's not as quick he's not going to ever forget how to play solid defense. He's also not going to forget how to box out and rebound. I just think a good big is more valuable. I'm not going to say anyone is insane if they think Kobe is better enough offensively that you'd prefer him, but personally I think Duncan's defensive contribution puts him ahead.

If you are going to make that argument, it would be more believable if you said that Howard or Bosh were better. But Duncan? He is not even top 10 anymore. Who's next? Garnett?

I did say Howard. I think my 5 were LeBron, Wade, Howard, Durant and Duncan. I didn't say Bosh because I'm not convinced about his defense (the Raptors are horrible, I'd need to see him on a good defensive team to see how much is his fault). And Garnett really has broken down, unlike Duncan who is just playing fewer minutes.

Kobe is solid top 5 in the league right now. That is blatantly obvious. And Kobe can't play solid defense? Kobe has been top 5 in MVP voting over the last 5 years, that is definitely not the case with Duncan at this point.

The MVP is a popularity contest. Kobe plays for the Lakers and is regularly hyped by the media (understandable, they want people to read them, saying nice things about the Lakers appeals to the many Lakers fans). So of course he gets plenty of votes.

And I never said Kobe couldn't play defense, I said that guards can't do the things big men do defensively. Despite Kobe's defense the Lakers were the worst defensive team in the league when they had a front court of Mihm and Odom. Your defense goes as far as your bigs take you.

 

[houheffna]

did say Howard. I think my 5 were LeBron, Wade, Howard, Durant and Duncan. I didn't say Bosh because I'm not convinced about his defense (the Raptors are horrible, I'd need to see him on a good defensive team to see how much is his fault). And Garnett really has broken down, unlike Duncan who is just playing fewer minutes.

What are you watchin? Duncan hasn't lost a step? He just playin fewer minutes? C'mon son! Do better than that...

Kobe is VICTIMIZED by the hype machine not helped by it. The media turned on him, the league to a certain extent. People like you calling him a rapist without any credible cause....Kobe has had what 3, 4 MVP seasons at least, how many he got? 1.

That's it. I watched Duncan this season...he is breaking down too bruh. Don't fool yourself. Poppovich does a better job of conserving him for the playoffs. But if you believe Duncan right now is better than Bosh, or Dirk Nowitzki...you are fooling yourself.

The MVP is a popularity contest. Kobe plays for the Lakers and is regularly hyped by the media (understandable, they want people to read them, saying nice things about the Lakers appeals to the many Lakers fans). So of course he gets plenty of votes.

So Kobe is hyped now? The media is the main reason people like you were calling him a racist, with no probable cause. The media has spent a bulk of Kobe's career against him, not for him. So if its such a damn popularity contest, why is it that he is infamous and not more famous. Fans love him, media hate him. And you want to act like he is basketball's Derek Jeter? That dog won't hunt bruh...

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Seriously this again. Is there any doubt that the Lakers championship teams have had a lot more to work with and still only won as many titles as the Spurs did in the last decade. Duncan has never played with a top 15 player in the league, Kobe won the majority of his titles as the #2 to the most dominant player in the game at the time.

Duncan never played with a top 15 player? What was David Robinson, chopped liver? He still made the all-NBA third team in Duncan's 4th year. And IMO Manu was a top 15 player for several years as well. Parker won the finals MVP in their last championship too.

I don't think the Spurs have had the depth the Lakers have had, but Duncan's sidekicks have been good.

David Robinson had a good year left as a 20/10 big when duncan got there. He probably still was a top 15 guy the first year but was trailing off since. Manu and Parker were never top 15 players imo, maybe sneaking in here or there but they aren't the guys kobe played with. No one even comes close to shaq and thats not even including eddie jones, glenn rice, pau gasol, karl malone or gary payton. Not all those guys were top 15 players but shaq was always top 5 as a laker.

The Lakers have had more talent, no disputing that, I'm just saying it's not like Duncan had no talent for most of his time. Although I'll give you the 02-03 championship, outside of Hakeem in 93-94 that's got to be the worst championship supporting cast in the NBA.

I'm not saying he did it by himself, just that he did the same net results with much less talent. Those guys are nices pieces and obvioulsy enough to put them over the top but he hasn't played with another true superstar and was always regarded as the best player on the team except for maybe his first year. He also has never missed the playoffs like Kobe has. If all you look at is scoring, ofcourse Kobe is better but TD is better overall.

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

If you are going to make that argument, it would be more believable if you said that Howard or Bosh were better. But Duncan? He is not even top 10 anymore. Who's next? Garnett?

Kobe is solid top 5 in the league right now. That is blatantly obvious. And Kobe can't play solid defense? Kobe has been top 5 in MVP voting over the last 5 years, that is definitely not the case with Duncan at this point.

if there's a debate over it, it's flagrantly obvious that it's not obvious.

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

i agree 100 %!

this team would be complete garbage w/o noah.

In fact we were complete garbage w/o noah. Do you think adding bosh in would really make this team better w/o our best defensive player?

You wouldn't think so because you called one of the best players in the league a "pick and pop guy"...you sounded like a drunk Raftery going off on a tangent in an ACC game. If you know anything about Bosh, how can you say this team would be WORSE without Noah and adding Bosh? Bosh is a better player THAN ANYBODY ON THE DAMN TEAM!!!

hey howse the best pf in the league doing? his team made the playoffs at what seed?

bosh isn't a center. if you're suggesting taj and bosh would be considerably better than bosh and barg, i think you're wrong.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

TheStig wrote:

I agree, if it came down to Noah + Amare or just bosh. I take Noah and Amare but I just don't see lee and *** as feasible. I'd take a lesser talent but other than lee, I just don't see anyone really being available, most of these guys are looking like they will resign except for boozer and lee. If it came to boozer/lee and noah or bosh, I'd probably go with bosh.

Well I'm assuming we can get Lee at a price that leaves us enough cap room to sign someone else (or use to facilitate a trade). If it's Lee + Noah with no further moves that becomes a much harder position to support.

I do think it's a moot point anyway because why the heck does Bosh want to come to the Bulls minus their second best player? We've debated whether we would or wouldn't trade Noah for Bosh, but I don't think anyone has given a good reason as to why Bosh would come here if we're trading Noah.

I just don't see Lee agreeing to anything less than 10-12 per year. Its gonna be hard getting that second or third level of fas to take less because their are so many teams that are going to have money to spend and s&ts.

I think Bosh still comes here, if he talent was his first priority, he wouldn't insist on a s&T which is why I think Miami is concentrating on amare. Clearly Bosh wants his first if he is giving away that much leverage. The question was a hypothetical one though of if you would and I would. I don't think it will come to that. I think it might be a couple of firsts and gibson at most.