are you sure you want to get rid of Joahkim?

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Kobe is VICTIMIZED by the hype machine not helped by it. The media turned on him, the league to a certain extent. People like you calling him a rapist without any credible cause....Kobe has had what 3, 4 MVP seasons at least, how many he got? 1.

Rapist may or may not be a bit to strong but the facts are that he paid off the girl to settle the lawsuit, he was married and it was common knowledge that had sexual relations with another girl in a hotel room and then started trying to rat out teammates after the whole thing to cover his ass. Lets not put him up as the model of ethics and morality. The guy is very questionable at best and probably lies somewhere between adulterer and rapists.

 

[houheffna]

Rapist may or may not be a bit to strong but the facts are that he paid off the girl to settle the lawsuit, he was married and it was common knowledge that had sexual relations with another girl in a hotel room and then started trying to rat out teammates after the whole thing to cover his ass. Lets not put him up as the model of ethics and morality. The guy is very questionable at best and probably lies somewhere between adulterer and rapists.

Who died and made you the damn Pope? WTF?

He is a professional athlete! Adulterer? Give me a break, like I said before, that has nothing to do with his abilities on the basketball court...name a player in the NBA who WASN'T an adulterer. Seriously.

Who put him up as a model of ethics and morality...now you callin him a snitch too...you a internet gangsta now?

The only person who comes off looking snippy with their nose in the air are people like you...who act as if you have never done anything wrong and you are some high moral authority...give me a break...

Would you have said the same of Tiger Woods? What about Magic Johnson? What about Michael Jordan? Jordan is known as one of the worst philanderers in sports history...

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

If all you look at is scoring, ofcourse Kobe is better but TD is better overall.

I'm absolutely 100% in agreement on that, Duncan is the best player post-MJ. Never been on a team with less than 50 wins (assuming you pro-rate the lockout season) is an amazing run.

 

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

I just don't see Lee agreeing to anything less than 10-12 per year. Its gonna be hard getting that second or third level of fas to take less because their are so many teams that are going to have money to spend and s&ts.

Even if he goes as high as 12 per year (which is more than I'd pay, I think starting at 10 is the absolute most I'd be comfortable with) we'd still have a good amount of financial flexibility. At the deadline Kirk's contract is down to 11.5 million (3.5 remaining in 2011 and 8 in 2012) and is big enough when combined with our remaining cap space to take on a max deal. So we'd be in a good position to pick up a player if anyone is looking to dump salary and tank.

It's a hell of a risky move leaving the space and hoping something comes up, but it could pay off big.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

What are you watchin? Duncan hasn't lost a step? He just playin fewer minutes? C'mon son! Do better than that...

Kobe is VICTIMIZED by the hype machine not helped by it. The media turned on him, the league to a certain extent. People like you calling him a rapist without any credible cause....Kobe has had what 3, 4 MVP seasons at least, how many he got? 1.

That's it. I watched Duncan this season...he is breaking down too bruh. Don't fool yourself. Poppovich does a better job of conserving him for the playoffs. But if you believe Duncan right now is better than Bosh, or Dirk Nowitzki...you are fooling yourself.

He has lost a step, but he's still very effective, and his per minute numbers are mostly holding up (unlike KG's). He never relied that much on his athleticism anyway, so it's no surprise to me he should stay good as he slows down. Sure it does mean he's playing barely over 30 minutes a night these days and it probably costs the Spurs a couple of wins. So what, the Spurs have been on enough playoff runs to know the regular season isn't worth busting up your body for. They've been preserving Manu his whole career like that, and he's been consistently under rated for it (like I think Duncan is now).

And as I said in the original thread, if you want to put Bosh and Dirk (and I think you said Chris Paul as well) ahead of Kobe as well and push him towards the bottom of the top 10, be my guest.

So Kobe is hyped now? The media is the main reason people like you were calling him a racist, with no probable cause. The media has spent a bulk of Kobe's career against him, not for him. So if its such a damn popularity contest, why is it that he is infamous and not more famous. Fans love him, media hate him. And you want to act like he is basketball's Derek Jeter? That dog won't hunt bruh...

I assume you mean rapist, not racist. And the probable cause is in Kobe's own statement he released:

"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did."

She did not view the sex as consensual, a fact which Kobe himself admits. I don't know what definition of rape you're using, but the commonly understood definition is sexual acts which one party does not consent to.

Kobe is a rapist, by his own words. He wasn't convicted, but hell, given the pitifully low conviction rate in rape cases, and the fact Kobe can afford the best lawyers money can buy, I'd have been shocked if the outcome was any other way. I'm certainly not going to blame the woman he raped for not wanting to put herself through the media circus any more and deciding it was easier to just drop the charges and get out of the spotlight.

And please don't bring up any Tiger Woods crap. I don't care about who he's sleeping with, I haven't followed the story and I think it's ridiculous. Who he has sex with is his business. But if it turns out he's raped someone, then hell yes I'll think he's a scum bag.

 

[houheffna]

I assume you mean rapist, not racist. And the probable cause is in Kobe's own statement he released:

"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did."

She did not view the sex as consensual, a fact which Kobe himself admits. I don't know what definition of rape you're using, but the commonly understood definition is sexual acts which one party does not consent to.

Yeah, and all rapists ask if they can ejaculate on the offended party's face when they are done...sad. I don't know about YOU but that sounds unusual to me if its sexual assault.

His statement, which he was forced to make simply said that two people have a different opinion of what happened that night. He acknowledged that. Of course a witness testified that she immediately spoke of rape, another says that she came to his party and bragged about the sex they had, in graphic detail. So you making yourself judge,jury and executioner really doesn't work in this situation. May work in Australia but in America, that is not justice.

He also compared himself to Martin Luther King Jr., saying that he was unfairly persecuted and not given the benefit of the doubt. You believe that?

I will bring up Tiger Woods, because he too was an adulterer. Sorry that rubs you the wrong way...but I think it fit the situation. Maybe you should read the response and see the context in which Woods name was brought up and you would better understand.

 

[Shakes]

Yeah, bring out the assassinations of the victim's character, it's always the way these cases are played out. And two people disagreed, funny how that's only ever considered and acceptable excuse for rape, not other serious crimes. If I steal your car and say you gave it to me, we don't just throw up our hands and say "oh well, two people disagreed what happened, guess we'll never know".

I think there's very little reason to believe the court system gets justice for rape victims. But that's all I'm going to say on the issue, because even if Kobe wasn't a rapist, I still wouldn't think he's a top 5 player this year.

 

[houheffna]

Yeah, bring out the assassinations of the victim's character, it's always the way these cases are played out. And two people disagreed, funny how that's only ever considered and acceptable excuse for rape, not other serious crimes. If I steal your car and say you gave it to me, we don't just throw up our hands and say "oh well, two people disagreed what happened, guess we'll never know".

I think there's very little reason to believe the court system gets justice for rape victims. But that's all I'm going to say on the issue, because even if Kobe wasn't a rapist, I still wouldn't think he's a top 5 player this year.

Duncan may be underrated, but he ain't on Kobe's level.

If you steal my car, and say you gave it to me? Well that depends...did I call the police right away? Or did I go to a party and tell people that I gave you the car?

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Yeah, bring out the assassinations of the victim's character, it's always the way these cases are played out. And two people disagreed, funny how that's only ever considered and acceptable excuse for rape, not other serious crimes. If I steal your car and say you gave it to me, we don't just throw up our hands and say "oh well, two people disagreed what happened, guess we'll never know".

I think there's very little reason to believe the court system gets justice for rape victims. But that's all I'm going to say on the issue, because even if Kobe wasn't a rapist, I still wouldn't think he's a top 5 player this year.

Duncan may be underrated, but he ain't on Kobe's level.

If you steal my car, and say you gave it to me? Well that depends...did I call the police right away? Or did I go to a party and tell people that I gave you the car?

Duncan was the best player on 4 title teams. How many times do you feel that Kobe was the best player for his 4 titles?

 

[houheffna]

Duncan was the best player on 4 title teams. How many times do you feel that Kobe was the best player for his 4 titles?

Who is debating that Shaq was the better player 10 years ago? Right now, Kobe is a better player than Tim Duncan...

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Duncan was the best player on 4 title teams. How many times do you feel that Kobe was the best player for his 4 titles?

Who is debating that Shaq was the better player 10 years ago? Right now, Kobe is a better player than Tim Duncan...

You said that Tim Duncan wasn't on Kobe's level. Yes, I'd take Kobe now over Duncan. Duncan is almost 3 years older than Kobe. We'll see how Kobe looks in 3 years. But in terms of career, Duncan is absolutely at Kobe's level. They are both 2 of the greatest of all time. I'd say that Duncan is the best power forward of all time, and Kobe is clearly behind Jordan but still up there. But to just dismiss Duncan and say he's not at Kobe's level, and I'm assuming you are talking about careers...you can absolutely make an argument that Duncan has had a better career than Kobe.

 

[houheffna]

All time is another subject. I believe Kobe is top 5 all time. I don't think that about Duncan. Nor do I think Jordan over Kobe is as "clear" as you make it. I think Kobe belongs in that argument, I think he comes up short, but its not as clear as you make it.

And what is your point about age? Kobe has been in the league longer and played more minutes.

 

[Shakes]

Despite being the resident anti-Kobe guy, I'll agree Kobe's probably the second best shooting guard of all time. But I don't see how that even gets him in the top 10, let alone top 5. Guards just don't matter as much as big men. If I'm starting a team from scratch I'd build it around Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan or Robinson, to name 5 bigs off the top of my head, before I picked Kobe.

 

[houheffna]

Despite being the resident anti-Kobe guy, I'll agree Kobe's probably the second best shooting guard of all time. But I don't see how that even gets him in the top 10, let alone top 5. Guards just don't matter as much as big men. If I'm starting a team from scratch I'd build it around Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan or Robinson, to name 5 bigs off the top of my head, before I picked Kobe.

So its Jordan and 9 big men in your top 10? That is your top 10...Kobe is a better player than Magic and Bird, who are in most other top 10 lists...I think Kobe deserves to be in that discussion.

People say, well, that was an unbelievable shot – other people can’t do those things, OK? But for him, it’s not an unbelievable shot, it’s something that’s become commonplace for him, and you expect it from him. He’s just been one of the most remarkable players – I think in overall talent – and again I don’t know how you judge players other than talent – I think he’s probably been the greatest all-around player that the Lakers have ever had. And when I talk about all-around, I’m talking about defense, and his ability to score the ball, his competitiveness and the fact that his teams win. You watch Magic Johnson play, a completely different player. He was incredible and I love Magic, but I think for pure talent and pure ability to go out and dominate a game the way he can dominate on the offensive end, and then to watch him defend – he’s become a very good defender. He’s become a great teammate. This is a long process from the time he was 17-years-old … there is something that some people were born with, and he was born with ‘it.’ How do you describe ‘it’?-Jerry West

That is the difference between me and you bruh, you are using positions to define players, I am using talent...I will go with The Logo...thank you very much...

Again, Wilt, Magic, Kareem...all Lakers...all legit top 10 all time players...and Mr. Laker himself agrees that Kobe is up there, in an age that the wing players are better than at any other time in league history. Jordan didn't have wing players to go against like Kobe does, not even close.

 

[pinkizdead]

Shakes wrote:

Despite being the resident anti-Kobe guy, I'll agree Kobe's probably the second best shooting guard of all time.

i'll have you know that i'm resident anti-kobe guy. There's only one way to settle this. pistols at dawn.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Rapist may or may not be a bit to strong but the facts are that he paid off the girl to settle the lawsuit, he was married and it was common knowledge that had sexual relations with another girl in a hotel room and then started trying to rat out teammates after the whole thing to cover his ass. Lets not put him up as the model of ethics and morality. The guy is very questionable at best and probably lies somewhere between adulterer and rapists.

Who died and made you the damn Pope? WTF?

He is a professional athlete! Adulterer? Give me a break, like I said before, that has nothing to do with his abilities on the basketball court...name a player in the NBA who WASN'T an adulterer. Seriously.

Who put him up as a model of ethics and morality...now you callin him a snitch too...you a internet gangsta now?

The only person who comes off looking snippy with their nose in the air are people like you...who act as if you have never done anything wrong and you are some high moral authority...give me a break...

Would you have said the same of Tiger Woods? What about Magic Johnson? What about Michael Jordan? Jordan is known as one of the worst philanderers in sports history...

Facts are facts and all of it goes to character. His character is bad both on and off the court. None of the guys you listed have ever been accused of rape or paid off a victim of the rape and broke up championship teams. Even on the court the guy has a bad character and usaully goes after his first but that gets excused because he is a scorer. Of all the all time greats, none of them have been sourounded by this level of controversy.

 

[houheffna]

Facts are facts and all of it goes to character. His character is bad both on and off the court. None of the guys you listed have ever been accused of rape or paid off a victim of the rape and broke up championship teams. Even on the court the guy has a bad character and usaully goes after his first but that gets excused because he is a scorer. Of all the all time greats, none of them have been sourounded by this level of controversy.

Magic Johnson came out and said he was HIV positive...that was controversial dude. Again, you sound like an 8 year old. Jordan had good character? Find one teammate of Jordan's who calls him their favorite athlete, and I can show you more who hated him. Believe that. Because he was accused of rape he has bad character? Accusations come and go...you have no concrete evidence of his bad character. And again you trot worthless information as if you are the damn Pope.

And then you call him selfish? Who shot more? Jordan or Kobe?

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

So its Jordan and 9 big men in your top 10? That is your top 10...Kobe is a better player than Magic and Bird, who are in most other top 10 lists...I think Kobe deserves to be in that discussion.

Well I'd have to throw LeBron in front of Kobe. I know some people will say it's too soon, but I think he's already well on his way to overtaking Jordan for best ever. Probably some people wont accept it unless he wins 6 titles, but it's not like he's had a Pippen yet either (Rose can be his Pippen, and Noah is Grant/Rodman, make it happen LeBron!).

Magic? I think it's impossible to put Kobe ahead of him. Kobe is like a better version of all the other good SGs behind him. Magic was a totally unique player who could do it all, pass, rebound, score, fill in at center even.

Bird is closer thing, but again he was a more well rounded player, and the fact he was less of a me first player compared to Kobe is probably the only reason his scoring isn't quite up to Kobe's (well that and they shot less threes in his day). And can you imagine Bird throwing Kevin McHale under the bus because he wanted the team to himself?

And obviously I do have Jordan ahead too. Hopefully I don't have to justify that one.

I'm not really in any sort of a position to judge older players which there isn't a lot of footage of, so although my gut instinct is to write it all off as crap from what I've seen, I'll instead just stick with the newer guys. So I guess Kobe can be the 5th best non-PF/C of the modern era.

 

[houheffna]

Well I'd have to throw LeBron in front of Kobe. I know some people will say it's too soon, but I think he's already well on his way to overtaking Jordan for best ever. Probably some people wont accept it unless he wins 6 titles, but it's not like he's had a Pippen yet either (Rose can be his Pippen, and Noah is Grant/Rodman, make it happen LeBron!).

Magic? I think it's impossible to put Kobe ahead of him. Kobe is like a better version of all the other good SGs behind him. Magic was a totally unique player who could do it all, pass, rebound, score, fill in at center even.

Bird is closer thing, but again he was a more well rounded player, and the fact he was less of a me first player compared to Kobe is probably the only reason his scoring isn't quite up to Kobe's (well that and they shot less threes in his day). And can you imagine Bird throwing Kevin McHale under the bus because he wanted the team to himself?

And obviously I do have Jordan ahead too. Hopefully I don't have to justify that one.

I'm not really in any sort of a position to judge older players which there isn't a lot of footage of, so although my gut instinct is to write it all off as crap from what I've seen, I'll instead just stick with the newer guys. So I guess Kobe can be the 5th best non-PF/C of the modern era.

Your analysis is a bit off...Magic was a great all around offensive player...Magic sucked defensively. Magic;s game was unique, so was Dennis Rodman...that doesn't make Magic better than Kobe.

Bird...please stop. Bird was great, but Kobe is a better basketball player...Kobe was a better scorer, ballhandler, etc. And Kobe was superior to him defensively.

I agree on Lebron, I put Kobe number 2 among present day players...

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

Facts are facts and all of it goes to character. His character is bad both on and off the court. None of the guys you listed have ever been accused of rape or paid off a victim of the rape and broke up championship teams. Even on the court the guy has a bad character and usaully goes after his first but that gets excused because he is a scorer. Of all the all time greats, none of them have been sourounded by this level of controversy.

Magic Johnson came out and said he was HIV positive...that was controversial dude. Again, you sound like an 8 year old. Jordan had good character? Find one teammate of Jordan's who calls him their favorite athlete, and I can show you more who hated him. Believe that. Because he was accused of rape he has bad character? Accusations come and go...you have no concrete evidence of his bad character. And again you trot worthless information as if you are the damn Pope.

And then you call him selfish? Who shot more? Jordan or Kobe?

jordon made more of his shots.