are you sure you want to get rid of Joahkim?

[houheffna]

jordon made more of his shots.

Once again...no point whatsoever to this statement...none....pointless...

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

Your analysis is a bit off...Magic was a great all around offensive player...Magic sucked defensively. Magic;s game was unique, so was Dennis Rodman...that doesn't make Magic better than Kobe.

Magic lead the league in steals twice. He may not have been the greatest man defender in the world but anyone who leads the league in steals is doing something to help their team defensively.

Bird...please stop. Bird was great, but Kobe is a better basketball player...Kobe was a better scorer, ballhandler, etc. And Kobe was superior to him defensively.

And Bird was a better passer, better shooter, and much better rebounder. So I think it's pretty close on pure talent. My criteria is really who I'd pick to build a team around from scratch, and to me it's Bird, because I can be confident he'll work with who he has to win, unlike Kobe who will complain to management that they're hogging his limelight.

 

[houheffna]

And Bird was a better passer, better shooter, and much better rebounder. So I think it's pretty close on pure talent. My criteria is really who I'd pick to build a team around from scratch, and to me it's Bird, because I can be confident he'll work with who he has to win, unlike Kobe who will complain to management that they're hogging his limelight.

On one side of the ball, defense...Kobe is fundamentally better than both Magic and Bird combined.

Magic was a horrible defender on the ball...period. He led the league in steals twice and he was all NBa defensive team how many times??? Greatest PG ever never voted all league defense...I guess those writers voted wrong...because he led the league in steals...twice.

As far as Bird goes, I take it you are using stats...and if that is the case...Bird is better than Jordan too right?

He was a better rebounder, passer than Jordan...right??? Better shooter? MUCH better rebounder...so its pretty close based on pure talent. So how is he so much better than Kobe, or its close based on talent, is it also real close between Bird and Jordan?

The comparisons between Jordan and Kobe are fair and accurate. Your criteria is flawed, because it deviates from the debate at hand. Its funny how people resort to some assumed character flaws based on concocted b.s. when the argument concerning Kobe is no longer valid.

 

[Shakes]

Lets not bring Jordan into it. The gap between Jordan and Kobe is about the same as the gap between Kobe and Michael Redd.

My point about Bird having other strengths is that Kobe can only win the comparison by being a much better scorer. But he's not a hugely better scorer. He scores a little more at a little less efficiency.

As far as defense goes, I've already said I don't think perimeter defense matters much. Kobe is a great defender, but when the Lakers had crap for a front court they were the worst defensive team in the league. So I don't really think Kobe being a better defender than Bird or Magic (who I never said was all league defense, just that he wasn't horrible) is worth much to a team.

 

[houheffna]

Lets not bring Jordan into it. The gap between Jordan and Kobe is about the same as the gap between Kobe and Michael Redd.

That was the meatball statement of the year...let's bring Jordan into it. If NBA Greats can do it, fans do it, its obvious. I am sorry you have some mad on for Kobe, but you should look at these things sensibly and not make things up as you go along...

If you have a mad on for Kobe please let me know, makes no sense to argue with someone with absolutely no objectivity...

Kobe has had a great...GREAT career, very comparable to Jordan...very comparable. And as I have said to many of you Kobe naysayers...what does Jordan do on the court that Kobe can't do? I can never get an answer so your analogy is absolutely ludicrous.

As far as defense goes, I've already said I don't think perimeter defense matters much. Kobe is a great defender, but when the Lakers had crap for a front court they were the worst defensive team in the league. So I don't really think Kobe being a better defender than Bird or Magic (who I never said was all league defense, just that he wasn't horrible) is worth much to a team.

Scottie Pippen is going to the hall of fame for his damn perimeter defense! What do you mean it doesn't matter much? How can you watch the Bulls and say perimeter defense doesn't matter much? Give me a break. Kobe has been all league defensive player for a decade. More than Magic and Bird combined.

Again you nullify a statement that obviously erases you argument.

 

[Shakes]

What can Jordan do that Kobe can't do? How about shoot near enough to 50% for his career? Or average over 4 more points a game? Or average nearly 8 more points a game in the playoffs? These are not trivial differences, it's like difference between Kobe and some borderline all-star guy like Redd.

But you want the peak not the overall career? What about scoring 63 against the best team in the league as a second year player? I don't know, I think that's just a tad more impressive than beating up on some Raptors scrubs for 81 points.

It's not a matter of what Jordan or Kobe can do in terms of individual moves or skills. You're right, they do roughly the same thing. It's just Jordan did it much, much better. And that's not some mad on for Kobe, it's stating the simple fact that Jordan was that awesome. And by Bulls fans standards I certainly do have a mad on for Jordan (I think he's a jerk and not likable at all really).

Pippen isn't in the hall for his defense. If he wasn't also a damn fine offensive player he wouldn't be there. You think Bruce Bowen is going in the hall too? I mean he made a ton of all defensive teams.

Anyway, you still haven't addressed the point of how the Lakers were the worst defensive team in the league with Kobe in 04-05. He missed some time but still played 66 games, so I can't really see that being an excuse for the defense being so poor. I mean surely such a great defender on so many all defensive teams shouldn't let them slip from 8th to 30th, no matter what changes happened in the front court. If perimeter defense matters so much, what's the deal with that?

Edit: And come to think of it, of course the arguments I'm presenting nullify what you're saying. If I thought perimeter defense was important I wouldn't have had Kobe behind Bird to start with. I'm being consistent here. Especially since you can dig through other threads where I've said many times that perimeter defense isn't that important, even when arguing about Hinrich/Gordon with guys like Fred or Stig where obviously it's not to my advantage to say something like that. It's not like I made this up just today in order to hate on Kobe.

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

jordon made more of his shots.

Once again...no point whatsoever to this statement...none....pointless...

it's not a selfish play, if it consistently goes in.

kobe misses more than jordon.

when jordon posted up, it was a good idea.

 

[houheffna]

What can Jordan do that Kobe can't do? How about shoot near enough to 50% for his career? Or average over 4 more points a game? Or average nearly 8 more points a game in the playoffs? These are not trivial differences, it's like difference between Kobe and some borderline all-star guy like Redd.

But you want the peak not the overall career? What about scoring 63 against the best team in the league as a second year player? I don't know, I think that's just a tad more impressive than beating up on some Raptors scrubs for 81 points.

It's not a matter of what Jordan or Kobe can do in terms of individual moves or skills. You're right, they do roughly the same thing. It's just Jordan did it much, much better. And that's not some mad on for Kobe, it's stating the simple fact that Jordan was that awesome. And by Bulls fans standards I certainly do have a mad on for Jordan (I think he's a jerk and not likable at all really).

Pippen isn't in the hall for his defense. If he wasn't also a damn fine offensive player he wouldn't be there. You think Bruce Bowen is going in the hall too? I mean he made a ton of all defensive teams.

Anyway, you still haven't addressed the point of how the Lakers were the worst defensive team in the league with Kobe in 04-05. He missed some time but still played 66 games, so I can't really see that being an excuse for the defense being so poor. I mean surely such a great defender on so many all defensive teams shouldn't let them slip from 8th to 30th, no matter what changes happened in the front court. If perimeter defense matters so much, what's the deal with that?

Edit: And come to think of it, of course the arguments I'm presenting nullify what you're saying. If I thought perimeter defense was important I wouldn't have had Kobe behind Bird to start with. I'm being consistent here. Especially since you can dig through other threads where I've said many times that perimeter defense isn't that important, even when arguing about Hinrich/Gordon with guys like Fred or Stig where obviously it's not to my advantage to say something like that. It's not like I made this up just today in order to hate on Kobe.

My point concerning Pippen, if his perimeter defense wasn't important and didn't matter to the team, he wouldn't be known for much, and they wouldn't have won 6 championships. Ask Magic Johnson if perimeter defense is important, while Pippen was guarding him...

I never stated that frontcourt defense was not as important as backcourt defense...or less important. Kobe was excellent as a perimeter defender. Being all league continuously shows that. Discounting defense to prove your point is disingenuous. Magic and Bird fall short...sorry. Kobe is much, much better defensively than either of them.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Facts are facts and all of it goes to character. His character is bad both on and off the court. None of the guys you listed have ever been accused of rape or paid off a victim of the rape and broke up championship teams. Even on the court the guy has a bad character and usaully goes after his first but that gets excused because he is a scorer. Of all the all time greats, none of them have been sourounded by this level of controversy.

Magic Johnson came out and said he was HIV positive...that was controversial dude. Again, you sound like an 8 year old. Jordan had good character? Find one teammate of Jordan's who calls him their favorite athlete, and I can show you more who hated him. Believe that. Because he was accused of rape he has bad character? Accusations come and go...you have no concrete evidence of his bad character. And again you trot worthless information as if you are the damn Pope.

And then you call him selfish? Who shot more? Jordan or Kobe?

Your comparing a guy who got a std to raping a girl? Or breaking up a championship team to someone who demanded perfection from others and pushed them to be better. Weren't you just arguing last week that MJ made Pip into what he was? Now that is a negative? Compared to a guy who has made no one better. Point being is something really bad happened in that hotel room, where something was off and the guys attitude broke up a championship team.

 

[houheffna]

Your comparing a guy who got a std to raping a girl? Or breaking up a championship team to someone who demanded perfection from others and pushed them to be better. Weren't you just arguing last week that MJ made Pip into what he was? Now that is a negative? Compared to a guy who has made no one better. Point being is something really bad happened in that hotel room, where something was off and the guys attitude broke up a championship team.

Point is, you make it up as you go along. Jordan helped Pippen out...sure...he still wasn't a saint, you cant differentiate between the two? Kobe has made no one better? That whole Lakers team is better because of him! Give me a break...

How did Magic get STD, while you were berating Kobe, I am guessing from your comfy throne in the Vatican, you brought up adultery. Which is ALL that Kobe admitted to. Magic got an "STD" (it was HIV, which leads to aids just so you know) and he didn't get it from his wife...

As for that crap you make up about Kobe breaking up a team, Phil said that is not true, Shaq even admitted later that wasn't the case...here is a quote from Roland Lazenby who wrote about the Lakers and knows the story:

Of course Kobe wasn't guilt-free. He was, however, a 17-year-old kid. Shaq led the rest of the locker room. He was the big guy in the school house. Kobe came in full of ambition, willing to work hard. Very much an alpha male even at that age. His work ethic didn't match the older players around him. As Derek Fisher explained to me, we should have had Kobe's work ethic, we should have worked that hard. Kobe set a tone that wasn't in synch with the team.

On the court Del Harris had no real offensive structure or plan, other than to get the ball into Shaq and mostly have everyone spaced around him. His practices were hardly greatly organized affairs. Don't get me wrong. Del Harris is a fine coach. The business as usual in pro basketball wasn't ready to deal with players as young as Kobe, much in need of guidance. So the circumstances play a role in that. My point, though, is that Kobe wasn't going public with some petty beef.



The reality is that the Lakers were one good rebounder away from winning it all in 04 and keeping it all together. If they had better relationships, they would have survived perhaps. But Shaq was really pushing for a huge pay raise that simply strapped the Lakers, which is a small organization. Phil wanted more power, more say so. Kobe had always been their foil, the representative of how Jerry Buss envisioned basketball. Shaq pushed his agenda, Phil pushed his, and Kobe simply wanted out. He was fed up. He was fed up with all the pettiness and criticism and games. People say that Kobe has always studied and created his image. I think in most ways, he's been pretty naive about his image. All this Shaq and Phil stuff is minor compared with Eagle and all that. That's what put Kobe on a lot of people's hate list. I spent the past two days rereading The Last Season, and Phil really smeared Kobein that book at a time when he was facing a lot of challenges. Very sanctimonious stuff, really.

Again, I trust Lazenby over Captain Statsheet anyday...

 

[TheStig]

Point is, you make it up as you go along. Jordan helped Pippen out...sure...he still wasn't a saint, you cant differentiate between the two? Kobe has made no one better? That whole Lakers team is better because of him! Give me a break...

How did Magic get STD, while you were berating Kobe, I am guessing from your comfy throne in the Vatican, you brought up adultery. Which is ALL that Kobe admitted to. Magic got an "STD" (it was HIV, which leads to aids just so you know) and he didn't get it from his wife...

As for that crap you make up about Kobe breaking up a team, Phil said that is not true, Shaq even admitted later that wasn't the case...here is a quote from Roland Lazenby who wrote about the Lakers and knows the story:

Who did he make better? The whole team isn't better because of him, they are the same players they were before they got there. Is Pau Gasol any better than before he got there and was a 20/9 guy? Ron Artest certainly isn't better than he was before. Same with Odom. All those guys had their best years elsewhere and are key pieces to the team.

How is not as important as when, when you are addressing adultery. Magic was married two months before he was diagnosed, no one knows when he got it. He was a player before but I don't think he'd cheat quite that soon.

Phil said it was untrue huh, because I remember him calling him uncoachable and that later talk came after he was rehired. No one said it was all Kobes fault but he was a key part in breaking up the team, even your article is title kobe isn't all to blame. But that implies he has blame and isn't the ultimate professional you make him out to be.

 

[houheffna]

Who did he make better? The whole team isn't better because of him, they are the same players they were before they got there. Is Pau Gasol any better than before he got there and was a 20/9 guy? Ron Artest certainly isn't better than he was before. Same with Odom. All those guys had their best years elsewhere and are key pieces to the team.

How is not as important as when, when you are addressing adultery. Magic was married two months before he was diagnosed, no one knows when he got it. He was a player before but I don't think he'd cheat quite that soon.

Phil said it was untrue huh, because I remember him calling him uncoachable and that later talk came after he was rehired. No one said it was all Kobes fault but he was a key part in breaking up the team, even your article is title kobe isn't all to blame. But that implies he has blame and isn't the ultimate professional you make him out to be.

How many times are you going to make up crap? First of all with that adultery stuff...WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? How the heck do you know when Magic Johnson will cheat in a relationship? That is just stupid. Whenever he cheated there was concern that his wife and unborn child might have HIV...that should show irresponsibility and selfishness right there. He spoke emphatically about his apologizing to his wife for what he did to her and what he put her through, you act as if he has nothing to apologize for...because of when he did it...that is sick.

Yeah, Kobe has blame for breaking up a team...so does Jordan, and I have shown proof of that too. Lazenby also pointed at Shaq and Phil as being selfish and not caring about the team enough. You read the statement and took what you want out of it. Next time, try reading it and taking it for what it is and not making it up as you go...

 

[TheStig]

How many times are you going to make up crap? First of all with that adultery stuff...WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? How the heck do you know when Magic Johnson will cheat in a relationship? That is just stupid. Whenever he cheated there was concern that his wife and unborn child might have HIV...that should show irresponsibility and selfishness right there. He spoke emphatically about his apologizing to his wife for what he did to her and what he put her through, you act as if he has nothing to apologize for...because of when he did it...that is sick.

Yeah, Kobe has blame for breaking up a team...so does Jordan, and I have shown proof of that too. Lazenby also pointed at Shaq and Phil as being selfish and not caring about the team enough. You read the statement and took what you want out of it. Next time, try reading it and taking it for what it is and not making it up as you go...

Make what up, where you there when Magic contracted it? No one knows exactly when he got it but lets follow your line of thinking for a minute. His soon was born june 4, meaning he was conceived in september, right around when they got married sept 15th. You can tell me with complete certainty that it happened after sept 15th and not before? You are making an assumption.

Right, beat writers never hold on to stuff cough*kc johnson*cough. That guy didn't need to stay in his good graces. Phil called him uncoachable. The guy you quote all the time, I don't see that quote anywhere. But I never said it was only kobe. He was a key part though.

 

[houheffna]

Make what up, where you there when Magic contracted it? No one knows exactly when he got it but lets follow your line of thinking for a minute. His soon was born june 4, meaning he was conceived in september, right around when they got married sept 15th. You can tell me with complete certainty that it happened after sept 15th and not before? You are making an assumption.

Right, beat writers never hold on to stuff cough*kc johnson*cough. That guy didn't need to stay in his good graces. Phil called him uncoachable. The guy you quote all the time, I don't see that quote anywhere. But I never said it was only kobe. He was a key part though.

I am making no assumptions...he apologized to her...I didn't. I wasn't there when Magic contracted it, but you WERE there when Kobe raped a girl? Yep Phil called him uncoachable, and you still believe that...and Phil is back coaching him....voluntarily...

You DID imply that Kobe was the sole reason the team was broken up...don't cower from that statement now...it was wrong when you said it and its wrong now after the truth comes out.

 

[TheStig]

I am making no assumptions...he apologized to her...I didn't. I wasn't there when Magic contracted it, but you WERE there when Kobe raped a girl? Yep Phil called him uncoachable, and you still believe that...and Phil is back coaching him....voluntarily...

You DID imply that Kobe was the sole reason the team was broken up...don't cower from that statement now...it was wrong when you said it and its wrong now after the truth comes out.[/quote]

He apologized because she was his long time gf. Cheating on a gf is not adultery. That apology has nothing to do with when he contracted it. Again, you weren't there when he contracted it. You are just assuming it was past 9/15, when it easily could have been before. Kobe on the otherhand, was clearly married and clearly the state had enough to press charges and he was worried enough to pay off the victim. I might not know for sure but those are typically attributed toward guilty people.

Where did I say he was the sole reason. He broke up the team, he was a key cause. Phil is back coaching cause he bangs the bosses daughter and gets 10 mill a year.

 

[houheffna]

He apologized because she was his long time gf. Cheating on a gf is not adultery. That apology has nothing to do with when he contracted it. Again, you weren't there when he contracted it. You are just assuming it was past 9/15, when it easily could have been before. Kobe on the otherhand, was clearly married and clearly the state had enough to press charges and he was worried enough to pay off the victim. I might not know for sure but those are typically attributed toward guilty people.

Where did I say he was the sole reason. He broke up the team, he was a key cause. Phil is back coaching cause he bangs the bosses daughter and gets 10 mill a year.

Sooooo, please name me players who DIDN'T commit adultery! Jordan was FAR worse than Kobe, yet you don't have a problem giving him all of your adulation and money. Larry Bird, and if you want to go into it, and recite the ten commandments, how is fornication, lying any different from adultery? Magic was notorious...and as Jordan didn't stop, I doubt seriously if Magic would have stopped. Give me a break, if you want to watch good athletes, watch the NBA, if you want to watch good citizens, go to church or be a boy scout...for crying out loud. Your resorting to this argument shows that you don't have an argument, its stupid and what I would expect from a basketball Special person...

As far as Phil goes...again clueless...you think no other team would have paid him that money? Phil came back because Kobe was the best player in the game. He wouldn't have come back to coach that team if Lamar Odom was the best player on the team...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

He apologized because she was his long time gf. Cheating on a gf is not adultery. That apology has nothing to do with when he contracted it. Again, you weren't there when he contracted it. You are just assuming it was past 9/15, when it easily could have been before. Kobe on the otherhand, was clearly married and clearly the state had enough to press charges and he was worried enough to pay off the victim. I might not know for sure but those are typically attributed toward guilty people.

Where did I say he was the sole reason. He broke up the team, he was a key cause. Phil is back coaching cause he bangs the bosses daughter and gets 10 mill a year.

Sooooo, please name me players who DIDN'T commit adultery! Jordan was FAR worse than Kobe, yet you don't have a problem giving him all of your adulation and money. Larry Bird, and if you want to go into it, and recite the ten commandments, how is fornication, lying any different from adultery? Magic was notorious...and as Jordan didn't stop, I doubt seriously if Magic would have stopped. Give me a break, if you want to watch good athletes, watch the NBA, if you want to watch good citizens, go to church or be a boy scout...for crying out loud. Your resorting to this argument shows that you don't have an argument, its stupid and what I would expect from a basketball Special person...

As far as Phil goes...again clueless...you think no other team would have paid him that money? Phil came back because Kobe was the best player in the game. He wouldn't have come back to coach that team if Lamar Odom was the best player on the team...

Again we dance around the issue at hand, resort to name calling and change the subject. Guess, what none of those guys you named were ever accused of or charged of rape, they never paid off a rape victim and never were a key cause to breaking up a championship team. That is the point. Your the one who brought up magic and can't prove he was an adulterer. Sure he cheated on a gf but there is no evidence he cheated once they were married.

No one said Kobe was chopped liver. I just don't think he is top 3 anymore and is slipping out of the top 5 if he hasn't already. I don't like his attitude on and off the court and think the lakers are best when he shares the ball more and limits himself to under 20 shots. But I'm done with these idiotic rants.

 

[houheffna]

Again we dance around the issue at hand, resort to name calling and change the subject. Guess, what none of those guys you named were ever accused of or charged of rape, they never paid off a rape victim and never were a key cause to breaking up a championship team. That is the point. Your the one who brought up magic and can't prove he was an adulterer. Sure he cheated on a gf but there is no evidence he cheated once they were married.

No one said Kobe was chopped liver. I just don't think he is top 3 anymore and is slipping out of the top 5 if he hasn't already. I don't like his attitude on and off the court and think the lakers are best when he shares the ball more and limits himself to under 20 shots. But I'm done with these idiotic rants.

Wow, your idiotic rants even got to you...