Best OF of all time?

[Tazer4mvp]

Far better huh that why his lifetime avg is better than mays, must people will tell you Clemente had the best outfield arm ever. Tied with mays for gold gloves, 2 world series rings, world series MVP and regular season MVP. Simple fact is he was overlooked one because the media ignored him And he played in Pitt as well.

 

[FirstTimer]

Far better huh that why his lifetime avg is better than mays, must people will tell you Clemente had the best outfield arm ever. Tied with mays for gold gloves, 2 world series rings, world series MVP and regular season MVP. Simple fact is he was overlooked one because the media ignored him And he played in Pitt as well.

:rofl:

Please tell me you're being intentionally dense about this.

1. Mays played a much tougher OF position in CF at the Polo grounds early on.

2. Mays has two MVP's.

3. Mays OPS and OPS+ playing in the same league at the same time exceeds Clemente rather easily.

Mays average season slash line was 302/384/557. Clemente's 317/359/475.

Mays is widely in consideration for one of the best players ever. Clemente is not.

Mays average season:
.302
36HR's
132RBI's
18 SB's

Clemente lead the league in hits and average a few times and triples once.

Mays at points in his career lead the league in runs, hits, average, homeruns, steals, triples, OPB, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and total bases.

Most any defensive fielding metric you can find has Mays as the better defender(take defensive metrics for what they are worth).

Are you seriously trying to argue Clemente should be considered in Mays' class as a player?

Clemente was really good/great. Whatever. Mays was a transcendent talent and if not for a guy named Babe Ruth may be the best baseball player to have ever lived.

Your argument for Clemente basically revolves around Gold Gloves, his throwing arm, and him being latin.

 

[Tazer4mvp]

Roberto won 4 batting titles and same amount of gold gloves in less seasons, lead the pirates to two world series rings MVP in one of those, regular season MVP and was screwed out of a second regular season MVP. Mays did not have any batting titles and Roberto has lifetime avg 15 points higher than mays. If his career was not cut short his numbers would have been even higher.

 

[Tazer4mvp]

In the end that's the big prob is Clemente baseball career was cut way to short by is tragic death, all around still think he is the best.

 

[Rice Cube]

Nobody is saying that Clemente sucks. But by just about every objective analysis, Willie Mays was the better player.

 

[FirstTimer]

Roberto won 4 batting titles and same amount of gold gloves in less seasons,

LOL at this.

Mays also won a batting title, won 4 HR crowns, 4 steals crowns, 3 triples titles, lead the league in slugging 6 times, OPB twice, OPS 5 times...and on and on.

Even if you chop off the last 4 years of Mays career so each guy played 18 seasons all you remove from Mays is a year in which he lead the league in walks and OBP. GHASP!

Those extra 4 seasons didn't really account for a hell of a lot. Even if you want to normalize the stats by a 162 game average Mays comes out far ahead.

Great Clemente lead the league in batting 4 times and won the same amount of GG's.............I never said Clemente sucked. You are trying to prove Clemente was at or near Mays equal and those are you strong points?

:rofl:

Mays was also screwed out of an MVP by Maury Wills in 1962.

Also, Mays did win a batting title. In 1954. So you're wrong yet again.

Yeah Clemente has a higher career average, yet an OBP nearly 30 points lower and an OPS over 100 points lower.

lead the pirates to two world series rings MVP in one of those, regular season MVP and was screwed out of a second regular season MVP. Mays did not have any batting titles and Roberto has lifetime avg 15 points higher than mays. If his career was not cut short his numbers would have been even higher.

Clemente's career was "cut short" at age 37 when he was already clearly declining and battling health issues. His last season he barely played 100 games. I don't care if Clemente played for another 10 years he wasn't going to pass Mays career rate numbers in OPB and OPS(both more important than batting average) nor Mays career numbers in things like homeruns, doubles, triples, steals, yada yada yada. You're acting as though Clemente was cut down in his prime at age 27 or something. He wasn't.

Clemente was a great player. But he wasn't in Mays' class. The argument doesn't exist.

 

[FirstTimer]

I can only assume by the fact that you are unable to look up Willie Mays on baseballref and see he won a batting title that you are completely cluess on this entire subject.

ZOMG CLEMENTE HAS A HIGHER CAREER BATTING AVERAGE! HE'S BETTER THAN MAYS'!

 

[Tazer4mvp]

I can only assume by the fact that you are unable to look up Willie Mays on baseballref and see he won a batting title that you are completely cluess on this entire subject.

ZOMG CLEMENTE HAS A HIGHER CAREER BATTING AVERAGE! HE'S BETTER THAN MAYS'!

He won one batting title big deal, Clemente won it 4 times...you said mays is way better right, how can you be way better than someone when they had more batting titles better career avg, won the same amount of gold gloves in less seasons...your entitled to your opinion but to make an dumbass claim saying not in the same class shows your knowledge of baseball. The fact you have to google everything you say tells me more about your baseball knowledge...

 

[Rice Cube]

He won one batting title big deal, Clemente won it 4...you said mays is way better right, how can you be way better than someone when they had more batting titles better career avg, won the same amount of gold gloves in less seasons...your entitles to your opinion but to make an dumbass claim saying not in the same class shows your knowledge of baseball. The fact you have to google everything you say tells me more about your baseball knowledge...

The individual awards don't tell the whole story. If you just look at the numbers...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mayswi01.shtml

Willie Mays: career OPS+ of 156

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero01.shtml

Clemente: career OPS+ of 130

Willie Mays may not have the better batting average, but he walked more, hit more home runs, and as stated above, played a premium defensive position in CF at a high level for a very long time whereas Clemente was a corner man, only playing CF sparingly. As stated before, it's not saying that Clemente sucks, it's saying that Mays is way better. You could make the argument that Willie Mays was twice the player that Clemente was, and since Clemente was already a HOF caliber player, that speaks to how fucking badass Willie Mays was.

 

[Rice Cube]

Also, using Google to search for readily-available databases is never a bad idea. Fact-checking is key to preventing others from shooting large holes in your argument.

 

[FirstTimer]

He won one batting title big deal

LOL at this

I never said it was a "big deal" I did it to point out the fact that you're illiterate.

Clemente won it 4...you said mays is way better right, how can you be way better than someone when they had more batting titles better career avg, won the same amount of gold gloves in less seasons

Because as I already pointed out things like slugging and OBP are more important than batting average. Two things Mays was much better than Clemente at. He was a better base stealer. He hit for more power, created and scored more runs. Won more MVP's... And on and on and on.

You really have no clue what you are talking about here. It's clear.

your entitles to your opinion but to make an dumbass claim saying not in the same class

They aren't.

Mays might be the 2nd best player who ever lived. I have him third behind Honus Wagner but I digress.....meanwhile Clemente might be the 5th best right fielder ever. See the disconnect here?

shows your knowledge of baseball.

My baseball knowledge FAR exceeds yours. That's pretty clear. You can keep on chirping about batting average and gold gloves(because that's all you have to go on) and I'll keep on listing the rest of Mays career accomplishments that far and away exceed Clemente's.

The fact you have to google everything you say tells me more about your baseball knowledge...

So wait...let me get this straight..backing up my opinion with actual verifiable(and correct) stats is bad, but rambling off at the mouth about things that are untrue like you have is somehow "good"? Here's the thing, resources are a good thing to use.

This is some absurd bizarro world or internet idiocy.

"DON'T DOUBLE CHECK FACTS! THAT'S BAD!"

And LOL at you thinking I need Google to somehow think Mays>Clemente.

Are you serious? He's Willie freaking Mays.

I would strongly suggest reading new baseball material if you honestly think Clemente's career average being 15 points higher than Mays' when Mays laps him in OPB and SLG really matters.

I'm not a huge advanced stats guy or anything but you're coming off as an 8 year old with your grasp of how to evaluate baseball players.

tell ya what..start a poll in this section asking people who is better and why. I'd be willing to bet pretty heavily that you'd be only one of one or two people at this site to seriously pick Clemente....there's a reason for that. Mays was better.

 

[FirstTimer]

The individual awards don't tell the whole story. If you just look at the numbers...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mayswi01.shtml

Willie Mays: career OPS+ of 156

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero01.shtml

Clemente: career OPS+ of 130

Willie Mays may not have the better batting average, but he walked more, hit more home runs, and as stated above, played a premium defensive position in CF at a high level for a very long time whereas Clemente was a corner man, only playing CF sparingly. As stated before, it's not saying that Clemente sucks, it's saying that Mays is way better. You could make the argument that Willie Mays was twice the player that Clemente was, and since Clemente was already a HOF caliber player, that speaks to how fucking badass Willie Mays was.

Pretty much.

Clemente was a great player.

Mays was a transcendent talent and one of the two or three bets players to ever put on spikes. It's not a dig at Clemente..it's complimentary to Mays to say he was in another class. The class Clemente is in is really fucking impressive...but it's not Mays'

 

[nwfisch]

 

[FirstTimer]

Also, using Google to search for readily-available databases is never a bad idea. Fact-checking is key to preventing others from shooting large holes in your argument.

No Rice. That's wrong.

You should never use any available knowledge at your disposal to prove things.

 

[Tazer4mvp]

The individual awards don't tell the whole story. If you just look at the numbers...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mayswi01.shtml

Willie Mays: career OPS+ of 156

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clemero01.shtml

Clemente: career OPS+ of 130

Willie Mays may not have the better batting average, but he walked more, hit more home runs, and as stated above, played a premium defensive position in CF at a high level for a very long time whereas Clemente was a corner man, only playing CF sparingly. As stated before, it's not saying that Clemente sucks, it's saying that Mays is way better. You could make the argument that Willie Mays was twice the player that Clemente was, and since Clemente was already a HOF caliber player, that speaks to how fucking badass Willie Mays was.

Like I stated before Mays played more season minus HR not like his career totals were leaps and bounds better, that's the issue Clemente career was cut short. Mays has said it time and time again Clemente never got the respect he deserved,

 

[Tazer4mvp]

Of course he is gonna have more walks and more HR he played more season than him..You have to take into account everything if numbers alone tell the story than Kareem is better than Jordan because he scored more points that's just dumb...numbers alone won't tell you who the best player was. I guess in the end it's like debating the best ice cream favor.

 

[FirstTimer]

Like I stated before Mays played more season minus HR not like his career totals were leaps and bounds better, that's the issue Clemente career was cut short. Mays has said it time and time again Clemente never got the respect he deserved,

Clemente played for 18 years. His last season he was already breaking down and he was 37 years old. Quit acting as though Clemente was cut down in his prime. He wasn't.

Mays saying Clemente "never got the respect he deserved" doesn't mean Clemente>Mays or Clemente=Mays. Nor does some anecdotal statement by Mays mean anything. John Sally said that he'd rather have Reggie Miller shoot a jumpshot in the clutch than Michael Jordan. Stats be damned John Sally said it!


His career totals weren't leaps and bounds better?

Mays/Clemente
HR: 660/240
2B: 523/440
3B: 140/166..keep in mind Mays lead the league in this stat 3 times to Clemente's one time
RBI: 1903/1305
SB: 338/83

Average Season:
Clemente: .317/.359/.475(.834) 16HR's 87RBi's 29 Doubles, 11 triples, 6 stolen bases, 200 hits. 94 runs. 299 total bases

Mays: .302/.384/.557(.941) 36HR's 132RBI's 28 doubles, 8 triples, 18 stolen bases, 178 hits. 112 runs. 328 total bases.

Factor in Mays leading the league in more categories, playing a premium defensive position at perhaps the highest level of any player to ever play centerfield, more MVP's, and on and on and it's not close.

Mays was better. Clemente's not even in this discussion.

Stop.

 

[Rice Cube]

Like I stated before Mays played more season minus HR not like his career totals were leaps and bounds better, that's the issue Clemente career was cut short. Mays has said it time and time again Clemente never got the respect he deserved,

Of course he is gonna have more walks and more HR he played more season than him..You have to take into account everything if numbers alone tell the story than Kareem is better than Jordan because he scored more points that's just dumb...numbers alone won't tell you who the best player was. I guess in the end it's like debating the best ice cream favor.

Look at their 162 game averages in the links I posted above and then tell me objectively who you'd rather have on your team.

 

[FirstTimer]

Of course he is gonna have more walks and more HR he played more season than him..You have to take into account everything if numbers alone tell the story than Kareem is better than Jordan because he scored more points that's just dumb...numbers alone won't tell you who the best player was. I guess in the end it's like debating the best ice cream favor.

This is idiotic. Normalizing each guys career to 162 game season Mays' still performed better. It's not only about raw totals..you can "average" the numbers out over 162 games and Mays is ahead. Mays not only hit more home runs for a career..he hit more on average...and took more walks on average.

How old are you? 12? Seriously? Do you not understand how to "normalize" numbers?

 

[Tazer4mvp]

Did Mays say that Clemente was better than him? I think not.

Say hey!

Tony Gwynn had a much higher batting average than Clemente or Mays, and won several more batting titles. Does that make Gwynn the better player?

That's the point Iam making you can't go off numbers alone. You can't say that Clemente does not belong in the class with mays he does.