Bill Simmons Tweet on Melo for Noah

[TheStig]

Lefty and FirstTimer = Bulls haters

And no facts are involved with you two.

Thats just fucking stupid. Why would anyone spend so much time debating a team they hate?

 

[Scoot26]

That is pretty stupid logic. There is absolutely no reason to believe that his abilities and overall contributions will change by any significant amount (positive or negative) and that said change will be expressly because of some factor he faces with the Bulls that he didn't in Denver.

This is akin to saying "well, you don't know for a fact that he won't get hit by a bus after arriving in Chicago, so you don't know for a fact that he will put up those numbers." It's completely and utterly stupid to say that.



Oh please, this is the same kind of bullshit logic that I just debunked above. There is no reason to believe there would be any significant change, as Melo has demonstrated his PPG per 36 minutes to be repeatable:

Melo's PPG per 36 in seasons beginning in even-numbered years: 24.17
Melo's PPG per 36 in seasons beginning in odd-numbered years: 24.7

To shun what he has done simply because he hasn't done the same in a different setting or in the next season (even though he has shown his abilities to be repeatable and not just the result of a run of luck), is just homeristic, simplistic bullshit.



Sample size = 1.



Oh yeah, then there's that.



What the rest of stupid Bulls fans were saying has nothing at all to do with me and what I'm saying. Nothing.



Actually, in that first year with the Bulls, Wallace did pretty much what he had been doing for the last couple of seasons. He put similar rebound and points numbers, and finished second in the NBA in Defensive Rating, and second in Defensive Win Shares. After that, he was 33 and in his 12th season in the league as a hard-nosed defensive center....what do you want from the guy? He in no way compares to an elite-scoring forward who is 26 years old.



Yes, he is, so stop comparing the two situations! They are completely different.



Please, this is a Special person way to compare two situations. Fans get excited about anything. As a group, they are as stupid and Kool-Aid drinky as Rami, here.



Are all of you morons completely incapable of gauging how the NBA economy gauges and thus values abilities and contributors? Defense and Rebounding grow on trees in the NBA. Big tall dopes that can grab at least 6-7 boards per game are everywhere. Hell, you Kool-Aid drinkers routinely say that one is already on the roster in Omer Asik!

Either way, who cares? Scoring is more important than rebounding and defense in today's NBA, and the Bulls will have an elite scorer to play alongside a budding superstar and very very good 4/5. That's a helluva lot better than the budding superstar and the 4/5 with an oft-injured, overpaid 3 and a 5 that can rebound but not score and has bad feet. Come on.



Right, because I didn't just show that offensive ability correlates the best out of other facets of the game with winning in the post-season or anything. Yeah, I totally didn't just do that.



Again with the stupid, bullshit logic. Ok then, let's take this to it's logical conclusion: why are star free agents being offered big contracts by other teams? Hell, why are teams offering their own players big money to stay for a longer period of time? Those seasons haven't happened yet, and in the case of UFA's, they almost certainly haven't played for that team before, so why risk it?

Because the big skills that we think about (mainly scoring and rebounding), are repeatable skills. It doesn't matter that the next season "hasn't happened yet", because the best thing we have to go off of is what the player has done (a de facto.....you guessed it....fact). To think or say otherwise as wholeheartedly as you do really just reveals your true colors: an unwavering homer that will suck down as much of the Kool-Aid as he can find.

You're running everything as the absolute truth and fact. You keep stating its a fact this would happen and that would happen...Thats opinion and that was my point. Melo averaged 24.7 ppg in 2009-10 is a fact. Melo will average 24.7 ppg in 2010-11 is an opinion.

With Superfriends joining forces...do you expect them to all still average the same amount of ppg they did last season on their own teams?

 

[Scoot26]

:rolling: From the guy that said the Bulls shouldn't attempt to win more games in the playoffs. Ok.

Isnt the point of the NBA to win a championship? Not more playoff games?

How many titles has Carmelo won? Zero.

How many titles did Kobe win before he got his All-Star centers Shaq and Gasol? Zero.

How many (NBA) titles did Julius Erving win without an All-Star center? Zero.

What about Dominique? Malone-Stockton? Reggie Miller? Grant Hill? Steve Nash? Amare Stoudemire? Charles Barkley? Shawn Kemp? Gary Payton? George Gervin? Clyde Drexler?

I've been preaching this center stuff for almost 3 years. I first wrote on my now extinct blog in January 2008 of the importance of the NBA center. At that point, I thought Joakim Noah was a waste of a draft pick and the Bulls would spend the next 10 years or more looking for a center. So I'm not some Joakim Noah homer. Do I like Noah now? Yes, he's turned out well. I think he has the potential to become more. And I would like another year to bank on that. Of course by then Melo is gone and off to probably the New York Knicks and Bulls fans will add Melo to the list of Gasol, KG, Kobe, etc.

But, the center never needs to be the best guy on the team, but he needs to be one of the best and be a factor..There's a reason why all these teams that put out shitty centers lose in the end (excluding Michael Jordan's teams). Maybe the LeBron trio will change that, but something of that magnitude hasnt been tried in the NBA before. We'll see if three guys who all play iso offensive style can win a title together.

Trading Noah takes away our force in the middle. And we'd spend years trying to find another one.

 

[Scoot26]

And that is the rub. Yeah, it is nice that Noah is a Top 5-10 Center in the NBA, but that doesn't mean shit when you are talking about a Top 5-10 player.

Is anyone really debating this? I think everyone agrees Melo is a better player than Noah. Its not just a player that makes a team.

If thats the case..Superfriends should win the next 4 titles with absolute ease.

 

[Lefty]

You're running everything as the absolute truth and fact. You keep stating its a fact this would happen and that would happen...Thats opinion and that was my point. Melo averaged 24.7 ppg in 2009-10 is a fact. Melo will average 24.7 ppg in 2010-11 is an opinion.

Ok then, here's a fact: It is very likely that Carmelo Anthony replicates the scoring numbers he has put up over the aggregate of his career in 2010-11, mainly because he has proven throughout his career that he can repeat those numbers and level of production season after season. Jesus Christ it's like pulling teeth with you retards.

 

[Lefty]

Isnt the point of the NBA to win a championship? Not more playoff games?

How many titles has Carmelo won? Zero.

How many titles did Kobe win before he got his All-Star centers Shaq and Gasol? Zero.

How many (NBA) titles did Julius Erving win without an All-Star center? Zero.

What about Dominique? Malone-Stockton? Reggie Miller? Grant Hill? Steve Nash? Amare Stoudemire? Charles Barkley? Shawn Kemp? Gary Payton? George Gervin? Clyde Drexler?

I've been preaching this center stuff for almost 3 years. I first wrote on my now extinct blog in January 2008 of the importance of the NBA center. At that point, I thought Joakim Noah was a waste of a draft pick and the Bulls would spend the next 10 years or more looking for a center. So I'm not some Joakim Noah homer. Do I like Noah now? Yes, he's turned out well. I think he has the potential to become more. And I would like another year to bank on that. Of course by then Melo is gone and off to probably the New York Knicks and Bulls fans will add Melo to the list of Gasol, KG, Kobe, etc.

But, the center never needs to be the best guy on the team, but he needs to be one of the best and be a factor..There's a reason why all these teams that put out shitty centers lose in the end (excluding Michael Jordan's teams). Maybe the LeBron trio will change that, but something of that magnitude hasnt been tried in the NBA before. We'll see if three guys who all play iso offensive style can win a title together.

Trading Noah takes away our force in the middle. And we'd spend years trying to find another one.

Oh please, you can't just look at the last X amount of NBA Champions, see if they had even a somewhat-decent center and then proclaim "you NEED a good center to win an NBA Championship". It doesn't work that way. You didn't isolate dick, and therefore you haven't shown anything to be true or necessary (unlike what I did).

You know what all of the recent NBA Champions have had? Arenas to play in. So then, I contend, that a team must have an arena to win the NBA Championship. Sounds stupid, right? It's just as bad as what you did. Try harder next time.

 

[Scoot26]

Ok then, here's a fact: It is very likely that Carmelo Anthony replicates the scoring numbers he has put up over the aggregate of his career in 2010-11, mainly because he has proven throughout his career that he can repeat those numbers and level of production season after season. Jesus Christ it's like pulling teeth with you retards.

Calm down..no need to resort to calling people retards because they differ on what you define as a fact and what others define as a fact.

And I do agree with your assessment that it is very likely Carmelo would continue his scoring numbers with a new team. Of course theres other facts to worry about, but speaking on scoring terms, pretty likely.

 

[TheStig]

I think its pretty much a given Melo puts up at least 25ppg here. Denver has a lot of guys to shoot. With trading Deng and Noah, we'd have a C that would only do put backs and open dunks, Brewer doesn't shoot much and Rose and boozer commanding the ball. In Denver he had Billilups, JR Smith, Nene and Martin all liked getting their shots.

 

[pinkizdead]

If thats the case..Superfriends should win the next 4 titles with absolute ease.

yeah. pretty much.

 

[Scoot26]

Oh please, you can't just look at the last X amount of NBA Champions, see if they had even a somewhat-decent center and then proclaim "you NEED a good center to win an NBA Championship". It doesn't work that way. You didn't isolate dick, and therefore you haven't shown anything to be true or necessary (unlike what I did).

I've looked at every single NBA champion and came to that conclusion. The majority of the centers are offense first guys who dominated their era. There's a few defensive centers (Ben Wallace and Bill Laimbeer) but nonetheless All-Stars who were on winning teams.

Perhaps you missed my thread back on the 1st of this month http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/...-importance-nba-center-how-relates-bulls.html

You can disagree all you want..Thats your right to. And its likely we're never going to agree. We'll just have agree to disagree.

 

[Scoot26]

yeah. pretty much.

Well then people need to start proclaiming that left and right. Not giving reasons as to why they wont win a title.

 

[TheStig]

Is anyone really debating this? I think everyone agrees Melo is a better player than Noah. Its not just a player that makes a team.

If thats the case..Superfriends should win the next 4 titles with absolute ease.

No, they won't... clearly they lack a defensive center and all the talent in the world couldn't win without that.

 

[Lefty]

I've looked at every single NBA champion and came to that conclusion. The majority of the centers are offense first guys who dominated their era. There's a few defensive centers (Ben Wallace and Bill Laimbeer) but nonetheless All-Stars who were on winning teams.

Perhaps you missed my thread back on the 1st of this month http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/...-importance-nba-center-how-relates-bulls.html

You can disagree all you want..Thats your right to. And its likely we're never going to agree. We'll just have agree to disagree.

You're not understanding me. You did not isolate a damn thing. Therefore, you cannot draw conclusions about what is needed or necessary to win in the playoffs (or how important the center is overall). That's just the way things work. You performed no analysis on your conclusions, other than to proclaim that they were there. I refer you to my "teams must have an arena to win an NBA Championship" example, it is a perfect analogue to what you did. This isn't disagreement, this is "you cannot draw conclusions from what you did, because you didn't isolate anything or regress one variable on another" (no, math isn't necessary).

 

[pinkizdead]

No, they won't... clearly they lack a defensive center and all the talent in the world couldn't win without that.

i duno. jordan, bird/miller and pao gasol would probably win. The sheer amount of talent on that teams is overwhelming.

i mean i concede that defense wins championships etc, but seriously overwhelming offensive talent trumps good defense. for their positions, wade lebron and bosh are pretty good defensive players. All of them can block shots, rebound, and score. this isn't a bad defensive team. if they can get a mediocre talent at center, they should be fine. if not, they can shift bosh to center. he's not terrible at the position, and he pretty much playd it in toronto. also if either arroyo or chalmers can step it up, they'll be more than fine at each position.

 

[FirstTimer]

We know what Melo can do with the Denver Nuggets. We do not have any fact as to what so ever what Melo can do with the Chicago Bulls. We have an idea of what he can do, but there is no fact to back it up, because it simply HAS NOT HAPPENED.

Then why bother dumping money into free agents?

It's all a gigantic crap shoot.

I've looked at every single NBA champion and came to that conclusion. The majority of the centers are offense first guys who dominated their era. There's a few defensive centers (Ben Wallace and Bill Laimbeer) but nonetheless All-Stars who were on winning teams.

Ok.

Then STFU with this Noah/All Star center needed to win an NBA championship bullshit. If what Noah is good at is the exception to the rule then why would we want to play to that exception? That's intentionally making the route harder than it is. We should be trading for Melo and then going out and finding an offensive minded center. Play to the odds. Then you would be combining a high caliber PG, a high caliber wing, and an offensive minded center..which in turn would make an even better championship argument.

I also think your "research" is incredibly stupid for the reason that for pretty much every team but the Bulls between 1980-2000 the NBA championship winning team didn't just have an "all-star center" they had a HOF or near HOF center/extremely high level center.....

Jabbar, Parrish, Jabbar, Moses, Parrish, Jabbar, Parrish, Jabbar, Jabbar, Lambier, Lambier, Jordan x3, Akeem x 2, Jordan x3, Robinson, ONeal x 3, Robinson, Wallace(exception), Rasho(Duncan at PF), ONeal, Elson/Obert(Duncan at PF), Garnett, Gasol, Gasol.

before 1980 you're talking about decades filled with Walton, Jabbar, Wilt, Willis Reed, Bill Russell, etc.

Noah doesn't belong with any of those names. he's not dominant/at the level of those guys(and never will be) and isn't playing along side a HOF PF.

Just saying that a team had an "all star center" kinda misses the boat on the actually way the NBA was built back then. Jordan aside those teams had HOF centers, centers that were HIGH level centers for years and HOF cusp guys, or the greatest PF in the history of the game. The Bulls don't have any of that.

Noah isn't going to be that center. He'd be a nice Rodman to an offensive center but in one respect the Bulls signing of Boozer doesn't do much either in the grand scheme. You haven't really ever had a PG driven team win a title since what? Zeke in the late 80's early 90's? Magic in the 80's? Again, HOF guys.

The Bulls are playing a dangerous game. They don't have a HIGH level center/greatest PF of all time. Strike one. They are point guard driven right now. Strike two. And they don't have a dominant wing. Strike three. Right now the Bulls are working against what has essentially won every title since the NBA began.

They don't have the recipe that generally makes a champion. They may have a piece in Rose but are missing the other two. Melo for Noah is a chance to get that second of 3 pieces. You deal with two of three and improve your chances. You have to start filling in holes when you can to compete. Noah for Melo fills a hole. Losing Noah really doesn't open one that wasn't there to begin with so no loss. At that point you start trying to find another defensive center and hope Boozer has a few career seasons or keep battling for post players in free agency. Or you take your chances with two of three holes filled. Teams haev done that and done well. But never with just one..outside of a few exceptions(Houston in 94, Detroit in '04)

You research sucks. Labeling guys like Jabbar, Akeem, Parrish, Lambier, ONeal, Garnett, Gasol etc as simply "all star" centers is a deliberate underselling of the point to try and say if Noah makes an All star team..which in an eastern conference with Dwight Howard, Brooks Lopez, Andrew Bogut, etc won't be easy..it somehow bodes well for the Bulls...is a ridiculous simplification of looking at the centers of teams that have won championships in this league.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Thats just fucking stupid. Why would anyone spend so much time debating a team they hate?

They are more like John Paxson/Gar Forman haters. They need to find some talking points to make their little internet radio show seem interesting to their 3-5 weekly listeners.

And, apparently, they don't realize that the statement

"The Bulls should trade Noah and Deng for Anthony"

is an opinion. Not a fact (as they claim). They claim that they have PROVED that it is a fact...

It's like one huge joke that they are playing on themselves.

 

[FirstTimer]

They are more like John Paxson/Gar Forman haters. They need to find some talking points to make their little internet radio show seem interesting to their 3-5 weekly listeners.

Odd.

Didn't know I had an internet radio show.

What's higher on the "Pathetic-meter":

Internet radio show host

or

Shitty writer for a website full of idiots?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'll settle for the latter.

But your opinion hurts my feelings,

because, as we all know, when you believe your opinions to be true

they magically turn into facts.

 

[FirstTimer]

I'll settle for the latter.

But your opinion hurts my feelings,

because, as we all know, when you believe your opinions to be true

they magically turn into facts.

For a writer your grammar sucks.

For a "basketball fan" your knowledge of the game sucks.

Do you write children's books?

Also, did you just "settle" for being more pathetic than Lefty?

Nice.

:clap:

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Then STFU with this Noah/All Star center needed to win an NBA championship bullshit. If what Noah is good at is the exception to the rule then why would we want to play to that exception? That's intentionally making the route harder than it is. We should be trading for Melo and then going out and finding an offensive minded center. Play to the odds. Then you would be combining a high caliber PG, a high caliber wing, and an offensive minded center..which in turn would make an even better championship argument.

I also think your "research" is incredibly stupid for the reason that for pretty much every team but the Bulls between 1980-2000 the NBA championship winning team didn't just have an "all-star center" they had a HOF or near HOF center/extremely high level center.....

Jabbar, Parrish, Jabbar, Moses, Parrish, Jabbar, Parrish, Jabbar, Jabbar, Lambier, Lambier, Jordan x3, Akeem x 2, Jordan x3, Robinson, ONeal x 3, Robinson, Wallace(exception), Rasho(Duncan at PF), ONeal, Elson/Obert(Duncan at PF), Garnett, Gasol, Gasol.

before 1980 you're talking about decades filled with Walton, Jabbar, Wilt, Willis Reed, Bill Russell, etc.

Noah doesn't belong with any of those names. he's not dominant/at the level of those guys(and never will be) and isn't playing along side a HOF PF.

Just saying that a team had an "all star center" kinda misses the boat on the actually way the NBA was built back then. Jordan aside those teams had HOF centers, centers that were HIGH level centers for years and HOF cusp guys, or the greatest PF in the history of the game. The Bulls don't have any of that.

Noah isn't going to be that center. He'd be a nice Rodman to an offensive center but in one respect the Bulls signing of Boozer doesn't do much either in the grand scheme. You haven't really ever had a PG driven team win a title since what? Zeke in the late 80's early 90's? Magic in the 80's? Again, HOF guys.

The Bulls are playing a dangerous game. They don't have a HIGH level center/greatest PF of all time. Strike one. They are point guard driven right now. Strike two. And they don't have a dominant wing. Strike three. Right now the Bulls are working against what has essentially won every title since the NBA began.

They don't have the recipe that generally makes a champion. They may have a piece in Rose but are missing the other two. Melo for Noah is a chance to get that second of 3 pieces. You deal with two of three and improve your chances. You have to start filling in holes when you can to compete. Noah for Melo fills a hole. Losing Noah really doesn't open one that wasn't there to begin with so no loss. At that point you start trying to find another defensive center and hope Boozer has a few career seasons or keep battling for post players in free agency. Or you take your chances with two of three holes filled. Teams haev done that and done well. But never with just one..outside of a few exceptions(Houston in 94, Detroit in '04)

You research sucks. Labeling guys like Jabbar, Akeem, Parrish, Lambier, ONeal, Garnett, Gasol etc as simply "all star" centers is a deliberate underselling of the point to try and say if Noah makes an All star team..which in an eastern conference with Dwight Howard, Brooks Lopez, Andrew Bogut, etc won't be easy..it somehow bodes well for the Bulls...is a ridiculous simplification of looking at the centers of teams that have won championships in this league.

Will you be my best friend?