Bill Simmons Tweet on Melo for Noah

[Lefty]

But what if making that move limits the Bulls' roster flexibility to the point to where they would need to trade/get rid of Rose, Boozer, or Anthony just to get that team to the point where they could contend?

What are you talking about? What has transpired in this little fantasy world of yours? Which members of that unbelievable core sucks and would need to be traded if not for their salary? Can players not be signed to the minimum or league average anymore? Please don't tell me your little "what if" game is based solely (or even in part) on what might/could happen after the new CBA, which is a complete unknown, and thus erroneous to plan for.

And how many fucking times do you need to have it pointed out to you that the Bulls are more flexible salary and cap-wise after getting rid of Deng and Noah for Carmelo?

It seems that is exactly what it would do. Sure, you would (maybe) get a nice C and improve your team...

You also improve your team now when you make that deal, I've lost track of how many times you need to be told this. Adding defense and rebounds (which are readily available in the NBA) is icing on the cake.

but then you are screwed from a financial stand-point,

Oh. My. God. For the 358762467th time, trading or not trading for Melo now has no impact on the future of this team's level of screwed-ness as far as the salary cap goes. When Rose's contract runs out, he's going to get his, and the Bulls would more than likely be fools to not use his Bird Rights to keep him on the squad. With Melo, or with Noah and Deng, this goes down, and the team is screwed. It happens either way. Are you honestly saying you would rather be financially screwed with Joakim Noah and Luol fucking Deng more than Carmelo Anthony? Come the **** on.

and have little-to-no trade leverage for about 5-7 seasons.

There's no trade leverage to be had anyways. Teams aren't going to be lining up to assume Deng's massive deal in order to get the chance to throw money at a free agent class that will include a 33-year old Pau Gasol, a 31-year old Emeka Okafor, a 30-year old Andre Iguodala and Thabo Sefolosha. And even then, who cares if the Bulls miss out on getting value for Deng's expiring, they have Carmelo Anthony!

Jesus, it's like you will leave no stone unturned until you can find every twisted, ass-backwards and logically unsound reason to not make this deal.

 

[TheStig]

But what if making that move limits the Bulls' roster flexibility to the point to where they would need to trade/get rid of Rose, Boozer, or Anthony just to get that team to the point where they could contend?

It seems that is exactly what it would do. Sure, you would (maybe) get a nice C and improve your team... but then you are screwed from a financial stand-point, and have little-to-no trade leverage for about 5-7 seasons.

Limiting what? Deng isn't gonna get you anything good. Gibson is a plus but not a big one. Asik is a question mark. We have little flexibility now outside of Rose and Noah. And Noah isn't gonna get you anyone better than Melo. All of your picks and mle money isn't going to return anyone better than our starters now.

Meanwhile, getting Melo leaves a hole at C that could be filled with our various assests. It doesn't need to return a star. If you can sign a Pryzbilla or Chandler or Dalemburt next year for the MLE or trade Taj and picks for a ok ccenter or asik develops, you got a real contender. You'd also be swapping out two guys who don't preform every game for a real healthy star player. Deng will miss time this year with injuries, he always wears down after international play and Noah has yet to put together a full season.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Honestly, I'll admit, there's a part of me that wants to hold onto Noah just for the sake of hoping that he turns into a superstar center. But I really mean it when I believe that a miracle could happen. I still feel like player development is the way to go in order to become title contenders. Even if Melo went elsewhere, other trades will come in the future.

And can you imagine how valuable Luol Deng's expiring contract is going to be in 4 years?

I'm staying optimistic. And I stand in-support of GarPax's decision, so far, to keep Noah off the table. In the pit of my stomach, I'm torn about it... but I want to believe this is the right decision.

And, respectfully, Left, though your stats you presented is good for shaping ideas about the importance of different factors in a typical NBA game, they aren't applied, factual evidence, which proved holding off on that trade to be idiotic.

Back to the Ewing-Rodman example, some things look much clearer in retrospect. Trading Rodman for Ewing would have turned out to be a horrible choice. Even though the name is big, doesn't mean it will automatically pay off in the form of a championship.

 

[Lefty]

Honestly, I'll admit, there's a part of me that wants to hold onto Noah just for the sake of hoping that he turns into a superstar center.

Then you're done. Stop talking. That is a completely erroneous and unfounded hope, or to put it plainly: stupid. He already has foot problems, has trouble staying in shape (though I give him props for getting in shape), doesn't score and has little hope (very, very, very little hope; like, "slim and none", but "slim" isn't picking up the phone) of developing scoring abilities that catapult him to the status you want. Would that be great if we had the clairvoyance to see that he would become that and act accordingly? Undoubtedly yes. But we can't, and all signs point to him decidedly not becoming what you hope for, but rather a pretty good center that can rebound and defend better than average, but cannot score (i.e. he's not very good at the most important thing in basketball).

But I really mean it when I believe that a miracle could happen.

Yes, it could happen. But possibility does not mean probability, and to act on what is possible, regardless of what is probable, is a bad, stupid way to run a sports franchise.

I still feel like player development is the way to go in order to become title contenders.

Not with Joakim Noah.

Even if Melo went elsewhere, other trades will come in the future.

You've been hammering home this idea from the get-go, and I can't believe (actually I can) that even you haven't realized how preposterous this is. This isn't player evaluation and projection (bolded so all the other mouth-breathers don't try to jump on me for perceived hypocrisy), you have no idea what puzzle pieces will fall into which places that present the team with another trade opportunity as good as this one. You have literally no idea what will happen in the future. None.

All we know now is that we have a chance to trade an overpaid forward and very good center with bad feet who can't score for a top-10 NBA player. You do not knowingly pass this up in the hopes something similar and better will come along in the future. I'm not saying something bigger and better won't come up, but it would be completely stupid to act as though it will. That is, again, a horrible way to run a sports franchise.

And can you imagine how valuable Luol Deng's expiring contract is going to be in 4 years?

Really? You literally just had two people tell you that it/he won't be as valuable than as he is right now (i.e. helping to bring in a top-10 NBA player), one of which explained to you exactly why it/he won't be. And even then, what specifically could the Bulls expect in return? Because right now, they have a top-10 NBA player on the line, you would be an absolute fool to turn that down in the hopes that something better comes along 4 years from now.

I'm staying optimistic.

Drinking the Kool-Aid like your life depends on it, you mean?

And I stand in-support of GarPax's decision, so far, to keep Noah off the table.

I'll take that as a resounding "yes", bellowed from the highest mountains in the Rockies to the deepest, dampest swamps in the southeast.

In the pit of my stomach, I'm torn about it... but I want to believe this is the right decision.

So.....you just admitted that you aren't thinking rationally and practically about this whole thing. Why are you still talking, again?

And, respectfully, Left, though your stats you presented is good for shaping ideas about the importance of different factors in a typical NBA game,

FACTS, you dim-wit. Facts about the importance of certain aspects of the game as they pertain to winning. The notion that scoring is more important than any other aspect of a team's overall game (I'll even exclude my numbers on the playoffs for the moment) is an infallible fact. There's no getting around that, no matter how hard you try.

they aren't applied, factual evidence, which proved holding off on that trade to be idiotic.

I'm going to give up on trying to explain to you exactly how and why those numbers (which are still facts) indicate that you make this trade without hesitation. I can see that you are way too entranced with dancing the company line to even have a remotely engaging and non-idiotic conversation on the subject. Though I will say this: going by those numbers is a helluva lot better than going by what you "hope" and "want" to happen, which are two things you have already admitted to doing. That is certainly undeniable.

Back to the Ewing-Rodman example, some things look much clearer in retrospect. Trading Rodman for Ewing would have turned out to be a horrible choice. Even though the name is big, doesn't mean it will automatically pay off in the form of a championship.

Will people ever grasp the importance of sample size? Probably not. Oh well.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

With all of your heavy opinions, and insults, and pretending that opinions are facts, you haven't said anything that I haven't already contemplated. It's been a nice 2 day long debate, but I don't think you understand that I don't care if I convert you into seeing things my way.

I believe in the integrity of the Bulls' organization, but I understand exactly why a lot of people are so high on this trade.

What I believe is already out there, and it is not so different than what the Bulls' organization itself believes in. Not that it matters - nor do I care if my ideals matches their's.

I respect that you want the trade to happen, but I'm done debating over it. None of us can see the future. All we can do is hope that everything works out for the best. I'm pretty torn... I don't want a player the caliber of 'Melo to slip away.

So, honestly, whatever happens... will happen. The main thing I want to see is the Bulls winning a championship................. Obviously the chances of Denver making a horrible trade is low... but crazier shit has happened in the NBA....

So that's it... done... it's over. You can mock and criticize my feelings and opinions all you want. But, just remember, you can't know for sure what the best move for Chicago would be. These are opinions were are discussing - not facts. And the only "facts" you are dealing with are unapplied statistics.

I'm kind of just rambling right now, because this is a sore subject for me, and because I'm exhausted (and because I'm sick of the petty insults). But I do want what's best for the Bulls. Whether it is a trade for Melo, no trade, or a miracle trade... I want the best.

That's it... that's all... I understand exactly why you want to make that trade and I respect it.

At least respect me enough to refrain, for once, with snapping back at me with insults or by claiming you have proven for a solid fact that the Bulls should make this deal.

You cannot prove a "should".......................................

 

[pinkizdead]

Honestly, I'll admit, there's a part of me that wants to hold onto Noah just for the sake of hoping that he turns into a superstar center. But I really mean it when I believe that a miracle could happen. I still feel like player development is the way to go in order to become title contenders. Even if Melo went elsewhere, other trades will come in the future.

And can you imagine how valuable Luol Deng's expiring contract is going to be in 4 years?

I'm staying optimistic. And I stand in-support of GarPax's decision, so far, to keep Noah off the table. In the pit of my stomach, I'm torn about it... but I want to believe this is the right decision.

And, respectfully, Left, though your stats you presented is good for shaping ideas about the importance of different factors in a typical NBA game, they aren't applied, factual evidence, which proved holding off on that trade to be idiotic.

Back to the Ewing-Rodman example, some things look much clearer in retrospect. Trading Rodman for Ewing would have turned out to be a horrible choice. Even though the name is big, doesn't mean it will automatically pay off in the form of a championship.

seriously? other trades wont come. noah will never be a superstar. player development ends when you turn 24/25. after that you're looking at basically a finished product.

No i'm pretty trading rodman for ewing would be a good trade for us. i'm pretty sure we would have the best team in the entire galaxy.

jordan, pippen and ewing could beat a team with Jesus, godzilla, and chuck norris on it.

finally expiring contracts aren't worth that much. they're usually for a bad/decent player that a team wants off their roster. deng and noah are both be considered the type of player that an expiring contract can fetch.

no one trades melo, lebron, and wade for an expiring. it's simply not done. Which brings me back to my first point. deals like a deal for noah don't come around all the time. they happen once every other decade.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

seriously? other trades wont come. noah will never be a superstar. player development ends when you turn 24/25. after that you're looking at basically a finished product.

No i'm pretty trading rodman for ewing would be a good trade for us. i'm pretty sure we would have the best team in the entire galaxy.

jordan, pippen and ewing could beat a team with Jesus, godzilla, and chuck norris on it.

finally expiring contracts aren't worth that much. they're usually for a bad/decent player that a team wants off their roster. deng and noah are both be considered the type of player that an expiring contract can fetch.

no one trades melo, lebron, and wade for an expiring. it's simply not done. Which brings me back to my first point. deals like a deal for noah don't come around all the time. they happen once every other decade.

I don't deny that Noah will prolly never become a superstar. I was more trying to say that to try to sound cynical about the idea of making that trade. It was kind of foolish of me.

and that ewing for rodman trade in 1996 would have resulted in hard times for the Bulls, seeing as how Ewing was injured.

 

[pinkizdead]

i forgot about that. who knows maybe if ewing wasn't on the knicks, he wouldn't have been injured.

 

[Lefty]

Ok, I'll accept your white flag. But all I want to know now is: exactly how do these statistics not apply to the Bulls? Do they play in some different NBA that I don't know about? How do the statistics that prove that scoring is more important to a team than any other facet of the game magically not apply?

Moreover, how does one go about "applying" these statistics more so than I and others have already? I have a sinking feeling that you are still relying on the old, asinine "the season hasn't happened yet" mantra, which anyone with half a brain knows is mouth-breathing bullshit and simple code for "stop showing me to be wrong".

 

[Lefty]

I don't deny that Noah will prolly never become a superstar. I was more trying to say that to try to sound cynical about the idea of making that trade. It was kind of foolish of me.

THERE IT IS! You just admitted that your discussions here have been influenced by something you hold out hope for, yet you yourself know it is highly improbable and erroneous to bank on! Fucking thank you, finally. Like I said before, it's like pulling teeth with you people.

 

[Lefty]

@FT: take your parting shots, then tag him and bag him for me. Please and thank you. 'Twas a rough road, no?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

And, Lefty, when I say "apply" them, I meant in-depth to each roster. But I am about to collapse, and I'm done. I'll try to coherently answer that question tomorrow

 

[pinkizdead]

Ok, I'll accept your white flag. But all I want to know now is: exactly how do these statistics not apply to the Bulls? Do they play in some different NBA that I don't know about? How do the statistics that prove that scoring is more important to a team than any other facet of the game magically not apply?

Moreover, how does one go about "applying" these statistics more so than I and others have already? I have a sinking feeling that you are still relying on the old, asinine "the season hasn't happened yet" mantra, which anyone with half a brain knows is mouth-breathing bullshit and simple code for "stop showing me to be wrong".

actually you haven't proven anything more than how very badly basketball lends itself to statistics. i think it's far more than evident that scoring is a statistic that lends itself to being mearured more readily than other statistics ie. altering shots/defensive possesions, tipping a ball to a teammate, hitting a pass that would lead to an assist( the so called hockey pass).

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

He did, but I don't remember what it was about. But now I can look forward to a "I just wanted to try to help your puny little show out, I probably doubled the listenership lolololol" post from him, so thanks.

Also Prope, Gaelic LOVES the show, so you can just go piss into the wind for all I care. :bigfinger:

I like the show.

 

[FirstTimer]

THERE IT IS! You just admitted that your discussions here have been influenced by something you hold out hope for, yet you yourself know it is highly improbable and erroneous to bank on! Fucking thank you, finally. Like I said before, it's like pulling teeth with you people.

I've got nothing much to say other than Rami should have just said on page one that he likes Noah because he works hard, plays defense, is energetic, *insert Chicago fire and passion BS here*.

There's no way a rational person could argue trading for Melo with Deng and Noah doesn't make your team better. As we come to find out Rami isn't arguing rationally. So at least it all makes sense now.

Now I just sit back and wait for Scoot to come in and defend his "research" on "all-star centers".

 

[FirstTimer]

It's just amazing how at the end of it all it comes down to some irrational hope about Noah turning into a super star center..which is funny enough on it's own...or a possible trade x number of year or now..or Deng's contract value as an expiring in 4 seasons...or the new unknown CBA....All just excuses for his fear of losing Noah.

 

[Scoot26]

Now I just sit back and wait for Scoot to come in and defend his "research" on "all-star centers".

I simply wasnt going to say anything else as most people were just being assclowns. But I'll close with this. Your post yesterday was probably the best in regards to what I have said and how you refuted it. Do I still believe you need an All-Star center in the middle to win a title? Absolutely. Do I have some hopey wishy washy thing that Noah becomes that guy? Yes. Is it probable? Not really. If Noah did become one, we increased our chances marginally since he is a defensive guy and not a dominant offensive center like most of those centers have been.... and you're right, SF and SG positions would still be a problem.

Using currently what we have, we have one step completed to winning a title. A PG. If we got Carmelo we'd be on step #2 to a title. 2/3 is better than 1/3...cant deny that.

Do I wish the deal could simply be Deng, Gibson, draft picks for Carmelo? I dont see here who wouldnt. That would make our team near complete this season. Should Noah be included in this deal to make it work? I personally dont want to lose Noah, but in regards to becoming a better team, Carmelo would make the Bulls a better team. I cannot deny that.

So consider this the white flag. Lets just all get along and quit bickering at each other.

Lets also discuss how sad it is that no one wants Luol Deng.

 

[FirstTimer]

Using currently what we have, we have one step completed to winning a title. A PG.

But we really don't. Persay. The last two title teams that were truly PG driven had HOF caliber PG's running them. I think Derrick Rose is REALLY good...but I also don't think he's HOF worthy. Magic and Zeke also had HOF/Elite caliber centers as well.

If we got Carmelo we'd be on step #2 to a title. 2/3 is better than 1/3...cant deny that.

True. And I don't think you're going to find any HOF centers anytime soon. The game has swung towards PF's. I mean the only HOF center playing right now is most likely Shaq and he's past his prime. I guess Dwight Howard is on his way but other than that you really don't have much at center in the NBA right now. I mean, compare that to just 15 years ago and you had: Mourning, ONeal, Akeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mutombo, etc all playing. I mean that's a hell of an era for centers.

Lets also discuss how sad it is that no one wants Luol Deng.

I don't think the issue is Deng alone. It's Deng + his contract. Deng is a solid player. He's just grossly over paid and his contract gets richer as time goes on. If Deng had a betetr contract I think he'd be a more attractive player to trade for.

 

[Scoot26]

But we really don't. Persay. The last two title teams that were truly PG driven had HOF caliber PG's running them. I think Derrick Rose is REALLY good...but I also don't think he's HOF worthy. Magic and Zeke also had HOF/Elite caliber centers as well.

Magic also had a very loaded team. I means its really no wonder why the Lakers were in 8 NBA Finals in the 1980s. Zeke had Joe Dumars on the wing and a very physical defensive team surrounding him. As far as Rose though, he hasnt proven he's HOF worthy...but I dont think Isiah had by his third season either.

True. And I don't think you're going to find any HOF centers anytime soon. The game has swung towards PF's. I mean the only HOF center playing right now is most likely Shaq and he's past his prime. I guess Dwight Howard is on his way but other than that you really don't have much at center in the NBA right now. I mean, compare that to just 15 years ago and you had: Mourning, ONeal, Akeem, Robinson, Ewing, Mutombo, etc all playing. I mean that's a hell of an era for centers.

See, I consider Duncan and Gasol centers as they play the typical style of a center of the past. But they've shifted those guys to starting at PF...Gasol does because of Bynum..Duncan started at PF because of D-Rob, but never moved to center once D-Rob retired, he stayed at PF. Then whats left is Dwight Howard. We'll have to wait and see what Brook Lopez may or may not become.

The 90's had one of the better eras of centers though. The 80s are dominated by Kareem, Parish, Moses and Laimbeer. I guess you could throw in Mark Eaton there, but his teams never had the deep playoff success.

I don't think the issue is Deng alone. It's Deng + his contract. Deng is a solid player. He's just grossly over paid and his contract gets richer as time goes on. If Deng had a betetr contract I think he'd be a more attractive player to trade for.

Honestly the Bulls should have done with Deng what they did with Hinrich and regress the contract. Deng should have gotten most of his money up front and his contract gets smaller over time.

 

[FirstTimer]

Magic also had a very loaded team. I means its really no wonder why the Lakers were in 8 NBA Finals in the 1980s. Zeke had Joe Dumars on the wing and a very physical defensive team surrounding him. As far as Rose though, he hasnt proven he's HOF worthy...but I dont think Isiah had by his third season either.

Agreed. However you mention the wings Detroit has and like we already discussed and agreed if you bring in Mel that fills the wing void. Assuming Rose keeps ascending to anything near what Zeke was and melo stays on his path you have two elite level players out front.

See, I consider Duncan and Gasol centers as they play the typical style of a center of the past. But they've shifted those guys to starting at PF...Gasol does because of Bynum..Duncan started at PF because of D-Rob, but never moved to center once D-Rob retired, he stayed at PF.

I guess...but you're kind of twisting the reality to fit your theory. Duncan Gasol Garnett don't play 80, 90's or 70's center style games. They all have much better perimeter games and up until last season or so Gasol was very soft inside. Garnett fell in love with the 3 pointer at times in Minny and Duncan is the closest to the center style game but has never really truly played the 5.

Honestly the Bulls should have done with Deng what they did with Hinrich and regress the contract. Deng should have gotten most of his money up front and his contract gets smaller over time.

Agreed.

And despite what some posters think I don't really hate PaxGormana. I think overall point by point they'd done at least a decent- above average job in overall. I think the drafts have been very good with an exception or so however where they fall falt is free agency(to a certain degree), resiginings, and overvaluing players and not moving assets. As GM's overall I would give them a C+ or B-.