Briggs Coming Back?

[iueyedoc]

Lol, so you think when scouts and coaches evaluate LBs those are the only things they look at? He graded out as the 3rd best defender on the Bears this year and by far the best LB. It's objective because the people that made that determination have no affiliation to anyone here currently discussing Briggs. Doesn't mean they are right but that is the context that the term objective is used in.

You asked for something objective. I think you are struggling with the meaning of objective.

ob·jec·tive
əbˈjektiv/
adjective
adjective: objective

1. not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

2. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased:

3. existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

 

[remydat]

So your all the time is three guys you say quit. You ask for objective rebuttals to your opinion and PFF opinions, as if anything you say has been spoken into truth unless factually refuted. You are one funny egotistical whack.

I didn't say they quit. I said fans of the teams they were on said they quit. This shit is said all the time. Here, I just googled quitting on NFL team and here are the stories that came up.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ntially-rewarded-blount-for-quitting-on-team/

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000452645/article/eric-davis-doug-marrone-quit-on-buffalo-bills

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...taWUzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1462893-5-nfl-players-teams-who-quit-on-the-2012-season

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...mad-brooks-says-did-not-quit-team-sunday-game

But of course, no matter how many examples I show of others being accused of quitting you will simply say it isn't enough. Yet I at least attempt to go find evidence beyond just running my mouth on a message board. Still waiting for anyone to provide evidence of Briggs on field performance being judged by others besides themselves as being terrible.

 

[remydat]

You asked for something objective. I think you are struggling with the meaning of objective.

ob·jec·tive
əbˈjektiv/
adjective
adjective: objective

1. not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

2. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased:

3. existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

Yes 27 tackles is an objective number. You deeming that to mean he played terrible is your opinion. The objective or independent source I was referring to was someone else other than yourself or Bears fans arriving at the determination that Briggs sucked. Not merely you reciting tackle numbers that we all know coaches and other evaluators don't rely on solely to judge a player.

 

[FatBabiesHaveNoPride]

You weren't discussing Briggs and Tillman at the end of their careers. Your statement was that in their primes Briggs and Tillman were still on mediocre teams. The clear intent was to somehow blame them for that mediocrity. So I picked a player who played much of his entire career on mediocre teams to point out the stupidity of the argument. The fact the team was mediocre according to you during their primes had nothing to do with Briggs or Tillman and you know that. So it's a stupid argument.

Good teams play the best players period. The Steelers brought 36 year old James Harrison out of retirement to play for them and they made the playoffs. The year before that he was on the Bengals who also made the playoffs. No one is suggesting the team field a D full of 35 year olds but the idea that goods teams never play aging players is frankly a stupid one.

So again, your logic is flawed. The issue is not Lance Briggs' age. The issue is whether he is still good or not. Also Vince Wilfork played 765 snaps and Justin Smith 715. They were both top 15 in snaps for 3-4 DEs. I would hardly call that part time.

I never blamed primetime Briggs and Tillman for the mediocrity of those Bears teams.

This can't be a hard concept to grasp. Successful teams don't field old players on positions that rely on speed and quickness.

Re: the Steelers - they did that because of injury (largely to a fast ROOKIE - a young guy). It means that there were no other younger better players on the street. Not to mention that Harrison played on that team - under the same HC and same DC - for 9 seasons. Translation: he knows the defense. He was also in football shape. How exactly does that compare with Briggs? Was Harrison injured for two straight seasons prior to this? Did Briggs play for the current coaching staff for 9 years? A more apt comparison would be if Lovie/Marinelli signed Briggs to Tampa. Harrison won't be on the Steelers next season. You are comparing apples to oranges.

The issue IS Brigg's age. And his injuries. And his lack of conditioning. And his lack of speed. And his attitude. There's a reason you don't see 35 year old starting LBs in football. Especially ones that just came off of two season ending injuries and ones that can't be bothered to properly condition their 35 year old injured bodies.

As for Wilfork and Smith - they are DTs, not DEs. DTs play part time by trade. They are not linebackers who rely on speed and quickness.

 

[iueyedoc]

I didn't say they quit. I said fans of the teams they were on said they quit. This shit is said all the time. Here, I just googled quitting on NFL team and here are the stories that came up.


But of course, no matter how many examples I show of others being accused of quitting you will simply say it isn't enough. Yet I at least attempt to go find evidence beyond just running my mouth on a message board. Still waiting for anyone to provide evidence of Briggs on field performance being judged by others besides themselves as being terrible.

So you take the word of fans of other teams that players quit as fact, but the fact that Briggs said he quit paying attention and statistically had his worst year, and fans and media have all said he quit is not enough for you in Briggs case.

Must be nice to pick and choose what you consider factual when arguing a point.

 

[remydat]

So you take the word of fans of other teams that players quit as fact, but the fact that Briggs said he quit paying attention and statistically had his worst year, and fans and media have all said he quit is not enough for you in Briggs case.

Must be nice to pick and choose what you consider factual when arguing a point.

No because again, I am not claiming they did in fact quit. I am just saying fans saying players quit is routine on bad teams. I have no way of knowing for a fact which players quit or not but yes I do believe some portion of guys on bad teams with bad coaches do quit because that is consistent with human nature and last I checked athletes are human.

And what media sources said he quit? That is what I have been asking for. And Briggs worst year may still have been better than everyone else on the team. That's the point. The comparison is not between Briggs and his prior self. The comparison is between Briggs and the rest of the players on the team. You are ignoring the fact that prior Briggs was a Pro Bowl performer and no one is claiming he played like a Pro Bowler last year. Just that he still played better than most of the players on the D in limited action.

 

[iueyedoc]

Yes 27 tackles is an objective number. You deeming that to mean he played terrible is your opinion.

No I find it hard to credibly say the guy that ranked 362 in the league in tackles played well and was a top 10 LB in any sense. In fact, my subjective opinion is that that is fucking stupid.

Even project out to 16 games he would rank 117th and 60th at LB without finding the others injured like P Willis that would project above him.

 

[remydat]

I never blamed primetime Briggs and Tillman for the mediocrity of those Bears teams.

This can't be a hard concept to grasp. Successful teams don't field old players on positions that rely on speed and quickness.

Re: the Steelers - they did that because of injury (largely to a fast ROOKIE - a young guy). It means that there were no other younger better players on the street. Not to mention that Harrison played on that team - under the same HC and same DC - for 9 seasons. Translation: he knows the defense. He was also in football shape. How exactly does that compare with Briggs? Was Harrison injured for two straight seasons prior to this? Did Briggs play for the current coaching staff for 9 years? A more apt comparison would be if Lovie/Marinelli signed Briggs to Tampa. Harrison won't be on the Steelers next season. You are comparing apples to oranges.

The issue IS Brigg's age. And his injuries. And his lack of conditioning. And his lack of speed. And his attitude. There's a reason you don't see 35 year old starting LBs in football. Especially ones that just came off of two season ending injuries and ones that can't be bothered to properly condition their 35 year old injured bodies.

As for Wilfork and Smith - they are DTs, not DEs. DTs play part time by trade. They are not linebackers who rely on speed and quickness.

Justin Smith has mostly been a 3-4 DE not a 4-3 DT. Justin Smith was 15th in snaps for 3-4 DEs and he had 715 snaps. The 4-3 OLB (Sio Moore) who was 15th in snaps played 729 snaps. Furthermore, since teams pass so much many LBs end up being taken out on passing downs hence why Justin Smith's snaps were comparable to Sio Moore's. No one is suggesting Briggs for Nickel or Dime so the reality is he is likely to play just as many snaps as Justin Smith or Vince Wilfork if healthy.

And you have no idea what role Briggs will play in a Fangio D so to claim his role will need speed and quickness is just speculation. An ILB on a 3-4 is not necessarily relying on speed and quickness and Briggs would most certainly play ILB in a 3-4 and not OLB. So again, you are making claims without knowing all the facts.

Is it a hard concept to grasp that maybe Fox and Fangio will review the tape, talk to Briggs, and then decided whether he fits whatever the new scheme is. Again, my only contention is you are passing off your speculation as facts when they aren't.

 

[FatBabiesHaveNoPride]

And yet players quit on bad coaches all the time so being driven doesn't change the fact that when you have a shitty boss, your performance can and does often suffer. It happens in sports all the time dude.

The only thing Fox or Fangio should base their decision on is how they think Briggs will play for them. Sure they can consider whether he quit on Trestman last year and ask him about it but ultimately if they are convinced he will perform for them then it would be stupid to essentially hold a grudge on behalf of Trestman. Trestman is gone. This is a new regime and a new slate. What happened under Trestman is largely irrelevant now as it should be.

Do you have another example of a player who quit on a coach - two seasons in a row - and made it as publicly knows as Lance Briggs did?

And it's 'largely' irrelevant, but not entirely irrelevant. Coaches get fired all the time. Every year in the NFL, 5 or 6 coaches will get fired. More DC and OC will change. NFL players have to get used to dealing with coaching staff changes. Most do it with grace, or like real growns up in any profession, grin and bear it.

That's on tape.

 

[iueyedoc]

No because again, I am not claiming they did in fact quit. I am just saying fans saying players quit is routine on bad teams. I have no way of knowing for a fact which players quit .

Alas,

And yet players quit on bad coaches all the time so being driven doesn't change the fact that when you have a shitty boss, your performance can and does often suffer. It happens in sports all the time dude.

 

[remydat]

No I find it hard to credibly say the guy that ranked 362 in the league in tackles played well and was a top 10 LB in any sense. In fact, my subjective opinion is that that is fucking stupid.

Briggs played a limited number of snaps. Without looking at the tape and seeing how a play unfolded, your analysis is incomplete.

And not sure what is confusing about what I said. I know players quit generally because it is human nature for some portion of people to quit when times are rough. This has been proven via any number of scientific studies.

Can I tell you which players quit exactly? No I can't because I am not privy to what really are the thoughts and motivations of players. There are some people who fans think quit that haven't and some people fans will swear didn't quit and did. I am not presumptuous enough to presume like many fans that I can easily discern the truth.

But does it happen? Of course. I would have to believe athletes aren't human to think otherwise.

 

[FatBabiesHaveNoPride]

Tell me what, find me someone other than Bears fans that think Lance Briggs completely sucked last year because I have been looking around and I can't find anything to suggest he was as bad as Bears fans claim. The opinions here by Bear fans are like eye witness testimony. Completely unreliable because of the potential bias involved. Lance has just became a scapegoat for the D's failures and people remember the few boneheaded plays he made and then imagine that he played like that the whole year



See above. Before I answer that you should probably prove that Lance quit in the first place by finding an independent source that agrees with your analysis that he did quit.

Any time a team performs poorly, there are always suggestions from fans that someone quit and fans then act like said player quitting is a fact rather than their opinion.

We can go 'round and 'round.

Let's cut to the chase. The Bears have been bad. They have MAJOR needs in all three phases of the game. They have a few key players coming off of injuries (Young, Houston, etc). They have some cap/contract issues with Cutler and Allen.

The model is also clear - teams don't win with 35 year old oft injured linebackers.

In light of all that - is 35 year old Lance Briggs someone you want starting at linebacker on the 2015 Chicago Bears.

My answer is no.

 

[FatBabiesHaveNoPride]

I didn't need a service to tell me that. When Briggs was active and playing, he was all over the field like a lunatic. Because he opened up a restaurant, some people were blind to his efforts. He played great when healthy last year, in fact we had some very good defensive efforts last year. The D was just not prepared to play against the better offenses which totally destroyed them and devastated the otherwise very good stats in the other games.

Did you just say that Briggs played 'great' last year?

Oh vey.

 

[iueyedoc]

I know players quit generally because it is human nature for some portion of people to quit when times are rough. This has been proven via any number of scientific studies.

Please provide links to any number of scientific studies you are basing your opinion on. These should easily be available as you are stating you are using these as basis for your opinion, not merely googling them after the fact to prop up your baseless opinion.

 

[TheWinman]

You lose all credibility that this house cleaning was about accountability when you reward him for being a brat last season with a new contract.

I respected his little goodbye letter and here we are a few weeks later and he is flip flopping? GTFO. If you are going to have the conviction to make a public statement like that...stand by it.

I would not even make him an offer. He didn't have to be a leader, but he sure didn't have to be a total jackass either.

I minimum contract is far from a reward. It's a let's see what you still have and let's see if you have the desire.

 

[iueyedoc]

I minimum contract is far from a reward. It's a let's see what you still have and let's see if you have the desire.

Honest question, do you foresee him playing for a vet min. contract? I think that would be met with a Urlacher like sense of insult.

 

[TheWinman]

why do the bears need to do that if they are rebuilding? The expectations will be lower and no need to let 36 year old washed up quitters play LB.

Sorry, even during rebuilding I like my teams to field the best team possible and still try to win as many games as possible. I suppose you were one of the many on year this past season wishing that the Bears would have lost out to get a better draft pick. smh

 

[TheWinman]

No, the team wasn't working well with him. It was obvious. I can at least admit that. I also saw a QB that had had enough with all the misques and dropped passes. He was drained and needed to sit. And he's still under contract.

edit: also, I don't believe he liked the plays called by Trestman, knew they'd fail, got frustrated, it showed.

really? You have no idea why Cutler was benched. The benching worked since Trestman is already employed again.

 

[TheWinman]

If he shows up in shape, with the right attitude then the Bears have a player that has experience and can help while a young guy is not thrown to the wolves to learn. If he doesn't, then they cut bait during training camp and go in a different direction.

this^^^^^^^ It would be stupid to not do this.

 

[TheWinman]

Fuck Briggs. We're not going to get better by keeping old, slow, fat, injury prone guys who undermine the coaches. He had a good run but it's time to move on. He obviously checked out after Lovie was fired. He also failed at taking over the leadership role after Urlacher was gone.

Again, he did not check out after Lovie was fired. He played very well before his injury in 2013. smh People need to actually remember things correctly instead of throwing blanket statements out there to support your argument.