building a PC and I have some questions...

xer0h0ur

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Intel's prices haven't changed much in the recent past because AMD just doesn't have anything to compete with it on the higher end to high end. Zen is going to be the first legit processor they have made in a long time but that sucker isn't due till next year for the consumer market. What I have seen of Skylake disappoints me. Intel really hasn't been pushed to releasing cutting edge tech and Skylake represents that for me. Another partial upgrade much like the 5XXX series was over the 4XXX series.
 

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Intel's prices haven't changed much in the recent past because AMD just doesn't have anything to compete with it on the higher end to high end. Zen is going to be the first legit processor they have made in a long time but that sucker isn't due till next year for the consumer market. What I have seen of Skylake disappoints me. Intel really hasn't been pushed to releasing cutting edge tech and Skylake represents that for me. Another partial upgrade much like the 5XXX series was over the 4XXX series.

Srs question, do you have anything you want to run, or any combo of things you want to run on your machine that you cannot do without new stuff?

Lol when I was building and upgrading my machine in High School I came to realize I often wasn't really building to meet any requirement to accomplish anything as I had when I started, I was just upgrading to upgrade
 

xer0h0ur

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Well you already know that in my particular case I had not built a system in ages. The last time had been early 2000's like 2002 or some shit like that and I went all out with it at that. This system is built to last me a long freakin time. The last time I had done something like this I kept that rig for 7 years+ and once I was done with it then it ran double duty for more years as my dad's PC at his store.

As for upgrading I try to stick to only upgrading things when they present a significant leap forward versus what I have. This may mean a node shrink or some newfangled technology that simply disgraces its predecessor. For instance in storage technology these NVMe PCI-E SSDs are something worth upgrading to if your PC can use it. I mentioned AMD's Zen architecture because lets face it, the previous one never was a threat to Intel and without anything threatening Intel they have been lazy and stagnant to give consumers anything really worth upgrading to.
 

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Rory Reed really screwed AMD up. When he resigned, AMD engineers threw a parade.
 

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Rory Reed really screwed AMD up. When he resigned, AMD engineers threw a parade.

QFT, I can only hope Lisa Su has her shit together but at the very least I am happy to see Jim Keller is back designing CPUs with AMD. He was the man at the wheel during AMD's glory days back when Intel was like who needs moar cores?
 

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Su is an engineers CEO. Very hit or miss. And agreed. Keller is awesome.
I used to talk with Dirk Meyer before he was the CEO. Great guy, but not a great CEO on the business side. The best engineer AMD ever had, with only a small handful industry-wide that might be a better chip designer all-time. He spun off GF on the pressure of a shareholder initiative to maximize stock value(I voted against it). Big mistake as well. BIG mistake. Keller and Meyers together again in development would basically solve the bus bottleneck issue that I've talked about a long time ago. And Sanjay Jha of Global Foundaries could have taken over AMD, leaving Su continuing what she did before. That would be a true all-star lineup. And what did AMD do? They blew it on ATi at a time when ATis best engineers fled when ATi started patent trolling(to combat nVidia's very harsh patent trolling).

So many facepalms, and Venture Capitalists DO NOT KNOW how to run companies. The ATi Merger was a downward spiral, so many disagreements. IDK if you followed that drama(IMO, it's better than any soap opera/Drama on TV).

I just hope the ship gets turned around. I don't want to see another Digital Research situation, where the engineering was years ahead, but the business side was basically playing a pennywise, pound foolish game. So many what if's, but the problem I have, is not a case of hindsight being 20/20, but that many of us knew ahead of time that a lot of these mistakes were going to happen with the decision making.
 

xer0h0ur

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Not really, I had been MIA from the PC scene for a long time when I quit PC gaming and stopped building PCs for clients. So I missed the entire merger drama that unfolded. AMD was whopping that ass when I stopped gaming. I suppose you can kinda call me an AMD fanboy. I despise Intel's and Nvidia's business practices. I am amazed at how much shit people let Nvidia get away with. They have a loyal user base that can get shafted and turn around handing them money saying can I have another please. AMD has one hell of an uphill battle in the dGPU market because Nvidia is so well entrenched there. Never mind Intel, we already know how fucking ruthless they are with the anti-trust lawsuit AMD won over Intel.

The only positive left on the table is that of Zen being a competitive high end product for servers and consumers down the line. The cryptocurrency mining craze was a boon for AMD's previous dGPUs but that unfortunately ran its course so they aren't getting crazy graphics cards sales and the shortage of their current gen dGPUs isn't helping them either. They are reporting more and more losses and are bleeding money. By my count they had 9 months worth of cash left without including the new deal with Nintendo and I don't know if Intel has already paid AMD the money awarded in court (which I believe they got off easy, 1.4 billion isn't shit to Intel).

Going forward, Moore's law is due to hit a brick wall and AMD benefits the most from it. Were quickly approaching the point where its becoming ever increasingly more difficult to keep making node shrinks on high performance products like GPUs and CPUs. So sooner rather than later these independent foundries like GloFo, TSMC, Samsung etc. etc. are going to catch up to Intel. Samsung being the most likely simply due to have tons of money to throw around. So as long as AMD gets and keeps their shit together in terms of their dGPU, CPU and semi-custom designs then they likely will be able to make a bounce back.

AMD needs to quickly mate HBM (high bandwidth memory) to its APUs and put that shit out on the market stat to jump ahead of Intel in that department. They also really need to find a better market with their semi-customs as frankly its one of the few areas in which not even Intel can match up and Nvidia obviously can't do dick in that arena without having an x86 license. They keep winning console bids for their semi-customs but their margins are shit so they need to find more areas in which they can leverage their APUs/semi customs.

/geekmode
 

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I think AMD is applying some wordplay in the HBM on APU hype department. Mainly because the way PiPs work, they already utilize stacking memory. The HBM standards are more to improve a unified driver concept. But who knows, at this point, the integrated HBM, from both AMD and Samsung, have been kept real secret.

And I agree, nVidia's industry practices are disgusting. But for the first time in 12 years, they have released more open development code. About damn time. Still nowhere near the level of AMD(Not ATi, because ATi was dead against open sourcing the drivers(and I wish they at LEAST applied a model for open sourcing drivers on cards with dropped support from the official fglrx library). But I understand why.

People hate on nVidia(as do I) for their practices. But they did so defensively because of Matrox. Matrox was the one that broke this trend, pissed off half of the industry and almost prevented vertex processing, which is why we have GPUs now (yes I don't consider any display accelerator as a GPU or that GPU should be retrofitted into older(even select modern chips) non-GPU accelerators as some people loosely consider them today).

Think about how much negative precedence Matrox set. nVidia is simply the spiritual successor. I just hope ATi doesn't become the new S3. Although I doubt it, because AMD was a founding member of PCIsig well before nvidia and intel(who takes a lot of credit, despite actually not supporting PCIe initially because it competed with AGP). And AGP is what put Matrox behind LOL. SMART move on AMD's part for sure. It's just too bad they don't have the same amount of heads in the game, and I think that's because of splitting resources into HT development(which is how AMD has been controlling nearly all expansion bus lanes since bulldozer).
 

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Srs question, do you have anything you want to run, or any combo of things you want to run on your machine that you cannot do without new stuff?

Lol when I was building and upgrading my machine in High School I came to realize I often wasn't really building to meet any requirement to accomplish anything as I had when I started, I was just upgrading to upgrade

star-citizen.jpg
 

xer0h0ur

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I won't give Nvidia any easy way out. They do shady shit like releasing the GTX 970 with a gimped memory subsystem and flat out lying about the specifications of the card. So a graphics card with 4GB of vRAM on the PCB can only actually use 3.2GBs of it at full bandwidth and as soon as it crosses that threshold the remaining balance operates at a snail's pace causing stuttering and visual artifacting. There was a big stink about this. Yet, guess which is the top selling video card from their lineup? You guessed it. The GTX 970 (again, their loyal user base bends over and lubes up with pride for the long Nvidia dick). Some time after that they disabled overclocking from laptop GPUs by way of drivers calling laptop overclocking a "glitch" that shouldn't have been available. Again there was a big stink about this and shortly there after they released a new driver allowing overclocking on laptop GPUs and they again went back to calling it a "feature." They also went on to locking their customers out of having DisplayPort 1.2a so that if they wanted an adaptive sync monitor they were forced into paying the price premium for a G-Sync monitor instead of being able to use VESA's free adaptive sync standard also called Freesync by AMD. This is merely a tiny fraction of recent history. They do a lot of fucked up shit.

My largest gripe against them by far and away has to do with the flat out anti-competitive piece of shit software they call GameWorks. That bullshit is aimed squarely at fracturing the hell out of the gaming industry by software gimping AMD's graphics solutions all the while not allowing AMD to optimize for it since its proprietary and only game developers are given access. Nvidia pays, and richly so, to have game developers incorporate GameWorks into their games. Yet there are only a few games with GameWorks in it that have been released without being legitimate hot fucking messes. Game after recent game has been coming out that played like complete pieces of trash like Watchdogs, Assassin's Creed Unity, Far Cry 4, Project Cars, Dying Light, Witcher 3, Batman Arkham Knight etc etc etc. In my mind at least, its no coincidence they were all GameWorks titles.

The direction that Nvidia is steering the industry is that of forcing customers into buying a video card based on what games they want to play. Meanwhile you have AMD still playing Mr. Nice Guy giving away free access to their code. This shit has to end and while Nvidia's user base remains indifferent or all too ready to bend over repeatedly to their will then nothing is going to change.
 

botfly10

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Su is an engineers CEO. Very hit or miss. And agreed. Keller is awesome.
I used to talk with Dirk Meyer before he was the CEO. Great guy, but not a great CEO on the business side. The best engineer AMD ever had, with only a small handful industry-wide that might be a better chip designer all-time. He spun off GF on the pressure of a shareholder initiative to maximize stock value(I voted against it). Big mistake as well. BIG mistake. Keller and Meyers together again in development would basically solve the bus bottleneck issue that I've talked about a long time ago. And Sanjay Jha of Global Foundaries could have taken over AMD, leaving Su continuing what she did before. That would be a true all-star lineup. And what did AMD do? They blew it on ATi at a time when ATis best engineers fled when ATi started patent trolling(to combat nVidia's very harsh patent trolling).

So many facepalms, and Venture Capitalists DO NOT KNOW how to run companies. The ATi Merger was a downward spiral, so many disagreements. IDK if you followed that drama(IMO, it's better than any soap opera/Drama on TV).

I just hope the ship gets turned around. I don't want to see another Digital Research situation, where the engineering was years ahead, but the business side was basically playing a pennywise, pound foolish game. So many what if's, but the problem I have, is not a case of hindsight being 20/20, but that many of us knew ahead of time that a lot of these mistakes were going to happen with the decision making.

imo this is exactly what has happened in very recent times. AMD has failed to challenge and nVidia and intel both have seem to have cut back significantly and extended their tech release timeline to where you have to wait 3 or more generations to get a significant performance gain.
 

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I won't give Nvidia any easy way out. They do shady shit like releasing the GTX 970 with a gimped memory subsystem and flat out lying about the specifications of the card. So a graphics card with 4GB of vRAM on the PCB can only actually use 3.2GBs of it at full bandwidth and as soon as it crosses that threshold the remaining balance operates at a snail's pace causing stuttering and visual artifacting. There was a big stink about this. Yet, guess which is the top selling video card from their lineup? You guessed it. The GTX 970 (again, their loyal user base bends over and lubes up with pride for the long Nvidia dick). Some time after that they disabled overclocking from laptop GPUs by way of drivers calling laptop overclocking a "glitch" that shouldn't have been available. Again there was a big stink about this and shortly there after they released a new driver allowing overclocking on laptop GPUs and they again went back to calling it a "feature." They also went on to locking their customers out of having DisplayPort 1.2a so that if they wanted an adaptive sync monitor they were forced into paying the price premium for a G-Sync monitor instead of being able to use VESA's free adaptive sync standard also called Freesync by AMD. This is merely a tiny fraction of recent history. They do a lot of fucked up shit.

My largest gripe against them by far and away has to do with the flat out anti-competitive piece of shit software they call GameWorks. That bullshit is aimed squarely at fracturing the hell out of the gaming industry by software gimping AMD's graphics solutions all the while not allowing AMD to optimize for it since its proprietary and only game developers are given access. Nvidia pays, and richly so, to have game developers incorporate GameWorks into their games. Yet there are only a few games with GameWorks in it that have been released without being legitimate hot fucking messes. Game after recent game has been coming out that played like complete pieces of trash like Watchdogs, Assassin's Creed Unity, Far Cry 4, Project Cars, Dying Light, Witcher 3, Batman Arkham Knight etc etc etc. In my mind at least, its no coincidence they were all GameWorks titles.

The direction that Nvidia is steering the industry is that of forcing customers into buying a video card based on what games they want to play. Meanwhile you have AMD still playing Mr. Nice Guy giving away free access to their code. This shit has to end and while Nvidia's user base remains indifferent or all too ready to bend over repeatedly to their will then nothing is going to change.

Gameworks has even gimped nvidia's own earlier gen cards
 

Crystallas

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I won't give Nvidia any easy way out. They do shady shit like releasing the GTX 970 with a gimped memory subsystem and flat out lying about the specifications of the card. So a graphics card with 4GB of vRAM on the PCB can only actually use 3.2GBs of it at full bandwidth and as soon as it crosses that threshold the remaining balance operates at a snail's pace causing stuttering and visual artifacting. There was a big stink about this. Yet, guess which is the top selling video card from their lineup? You guessed it. The GTX 970 (again, their loyal user base bends over and lubes up with pride for the long Nvidia dick). Some time after that they disabled overclocking from laptop GPUs by way of drivers calling laptop overclocking a "glitch" that shouldn't have been available. Again there was a big stink about this and shortly there after they released a new driver allowing overclocking on laptop GPUs and they again went back to calling it a "feature." They also went on to locking their customers out of having DisplayPort 1.2a so that if they wanted an adaptive sync monitor they were forced into paying the price premium for a G-Sync monitor instead of being able to use VESA's free adaptive sync standard also called Freesync by AMD. This is merely a tiny fraction of recent history. They do a lot of fucked up shit.

My largest gripe against them by far and away has to do with the flat out anti-competitive piece of shit software they call GameWorks. That bullshit is aimed squarely at fracturing the hell out of the gaming industry by software gimping AMD's graphics solutions all the while not allowing AMD to optimize for it since its proprietary and only game developers are given access. Nvidia pays, and richly so, to have game developers incorporate GameWorks into their games. Yet there are only a few games with GameWorks in it that have been released without being legitimate hot fucking messes. Game after recent game has been coming out that played like complete pieces of trash like Watchdogs, Assassin's Creed Unity, Far Cry 4, Project Cars, Dying Light, Witcher 3, Batman Arkham Knight etc etc etc. In my mind at least, its no coincidence they were all GameWorks titles.

The direction that Nvidia is steering the industry is that of forcing customers into buying a video card based on what games they want to play. Meanwhile you have AMD still playing Mr. Nice Guy giving away free access to their code. This shit has to end and while Nvidia's user base remains indifferent or all too ready to bend over repeatedly to their will then nothing is going to change.

I actually think nvidia cleaned the 970 mess up as well as you could, and this is the least of my concerns when it comes to their practices. What gets overlooked is the massive library of games that are being released on the 3 consoles, and also appears to continue with the Nintendo NX. So as far as development bias, I think the field is slightly more level than some are willing to admit, especially considering that demanding console games outsell demanding PC games considerably. To me this angle of the argument is a bit of a push, and is not why I have issues with nVidia.

The competitive practices are one thing, but the industry practices are another. What bothers me starts back at the 3Dfx days, where 3Dfx had the opportunity to release their new version of Glide(but never did because of their own mistakes, like becoming their own board maker as well, which created a massive hole in revenue and sales by leading board makers in the industry). 3Dfx pissed everyone off with that move, except the first generation of consumers going into the Voodoo3 line. Well, nVidia knowing that the new version of glide could come out, and with so many game studios loving the glide toolkits for development, rushed in bed with microsoft to lock in Direct 3D acceleration. Now, this was a good business move, but a bad industry move. As nVidia cut themselves out of the OpenGL OS world. Apple, Linux, BSD, Sun(still a big player at this time, and they had to fork into their own solution with E3D), when nVidia could have been the hero here and adopted OpenGL as a primary development option. Instead, nVidia squeezed 3Dfx out by developing a very very very buggy D3D standard(which took a few years to improve). Which is where ATi started to sneak in from being a middle of the road chipmaker that gave consumers the only option for an all-in-one VIVO standard(All-in-wonder) to support OpenGL primarily and support D3D, all while playing nice with those with a voodoo2 or banshee card.

nVidia was subsidized by Microsoft(which is an illegal practice now), which is how they were able to sell RivaTNT2s for $200(the high end of gaming) compared to $300 for 3dfx's high end at the time. But people bought the 3Dfx still because of the name and the sheer amount of glide support still. MS and nVidia didn't screw any single company, but all of them. Matrox didn't care though, they had the contracts of the military and many other government agencies. ATi picked up on this quick and forced Microsoft's to publish D3D 7 standards to the industry at the same time. Of course, since nVidia contributed most of the standards, every other company was limited to how they would implement the standards. By the time the Radeon R300 came out, ATi was getting Apple money for being almost the exclusive GPU chipmaker(because of that OpenGL support at the time).

Well, IBM made Apples CPUs at that time, and guess what, ATi and IBM started working together too. Now shit is getting good. This is where things heat up. But IBM at this point in their history support a more open design standard, which then ATi had little choice, but to adopt it as well. They were, as you said, giving their code away for the world to see/improve/use, while nVidia started locking everything down. nVidia then buys 3Dfx for almost NOTHING. 3Dfx wanted to release glide as open source, and thus Glide would have been merged into the Open Graphics Library. If 3Dfx said they didn't want to release glide, nVidia wouldn't have touched it. They knew their edge was all based around D3D development, and that their 2D performance was behind, their OpenGL performance was iffy at this point. But if OpenGL expands to include the best 3D optimization breakthrough in history, they wouldn't be quick enough to adopt it.

Xbox comes out. nVidia works even closer with MS. But you know what? I think we can make our own console. Sounds a little bit like a Sony + Nintendo relationship from 1992? Yeah, MS cuts nVidia, goes with ATi.

Around the same time, nVidia starts to make the best AMD northbridge chipset. Hey, we can make CPUs too. AMD starts making their own chipsets and nVidia focuses on intel chipsets with the nforce4. Hey intel, we can make the CPU too. Intel goes, oh hell no, starts their own performance chipset team. Intel, Microsoft, AMD, all told nVidia inside secrets to help improve products. nVidia took, RARELY gave back. This is why qualcomm is very hesitant to work with nVidia directly.

AMD is doing good, they buy ATi. ATi could be that chipset company that nvidia used to be(since ATi showed promise that they could make a nice NB-SB chipset), and we can save money by merging our graphics divisions. Well... let's start the rodeo... AMD then made the series of mistakes I mentioned in a few posts earlier, and both companies hurt because of it. It's funny to think, but ATi could have just as easily rode the storm and come out okay. If Apple didn't drop the PPC for x86, I think IBM would have spun off one or multiple graphics division(s) and made a deal with ATi. But AMD(the x86 manufacturer) wasn't ready IMO to piss off nVidia. Instead, they pissed nVidia and Intel off, which brought them back together a bit more.


So in the end, we're not dealing with the best technologies. We're dealing with a lot of closed technology that is barely standardized. And the efficiency of everything is significantly less than what it should be. It's NO SURPRISE that ARM became the fastest growing standard, because ARM is very open. AMD is also very open, but plays david behind the goliath. So AMD's open standards can get shit on 9 times out of 10 for intels closed solution.


nVidia, contribute BACK to VESA, contribute BACK to OpenGL(and no, not just your scrapped garbage that nobody will use to show good will), Adopt FreeSync and other open hardware standards instead of forcing closed standards across platforms, engines, and IDEs. Open Glide. Stop threatening companies for releasing any form of processor design for graphics and calling that an infringement of your GPU idea(then manipulating companies to pay licensing). Oh, and just because you make claims that you take nobody to court for good PR, doesn't mean industry insiders have kept quiet about the massive intimidation and blackballing. Basically be a contributing member to the tech community in more ways than just releasing competitive products, and a lot of your haters will skeptically start switching back, including the next generation consoles, more mobile devices, etc. If Microsoft can open a bulk of IPs(ones that were questionably obtained, like many of your IPs, nVidia), so can you!
 

botfly10

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Well, it wasn't very long ago that there was a lot of talk about the death of pc gaming. Obviously that was silly, but still, seemed like PC gaming was in a very rough place for a while. Seems like that has turned around and PC is experiencing a resurgence.

Shit like steam, mincraft, youtube, and the clear superiority of the PC platform seems to have made a big difference. And building PCs seems more accessible and common than ever. Seems like a lot of the stigma of complexity of PC's is fading.
 

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Well, it wasn't very long ago that there was a lot of talk about the death of pc gaming.

It's funny. This argument has been made for my entire conscious life.

1984... don't bother buying a computer for gaming, Nintendo is coming. PC gaming is dead. Seriously, that was the sentiment. And every few years after being proven wrong, the same conclusion is made in some newly endless cycle.
 

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Yeah, I know. Except now rather than just chugging along, PC seems to actually be thriving as a platform with a whole new market for "console replacement" PCs. And obviously its not a new idea. But right now, every single manufacturer is releasing hardware aimed at people converting from console.

Who fucking knows if it lasts, but its still pretty cool.

Imo, its probably an extension of the whole industry kind of "growing up".
 

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The reason PC gaming wont ever die is pretty simple.

It can play 98% of the titles that have ever been released on any platform on one system. Potentially 100% of today's games in due time.

It can even play 96% of the titles that were ever released on a free open source operating system(s). Potentially 100% of today's games in due time.

It can be done with any console controller I want.

It can be done while sitting on a couch behind a big screen TV. It can be done behind a desk, on a bed.

It can be done for fairly cheap or expensive.

It can be infinitely expanded.

It can be easy mode or expert mode.

Games scale, can be hacked, modified, expanded to a far greater degree.

It can't die.
 

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So many facepalms, and Venture Capitalists DO NOT KNOW how to run companies. The ATi Merger was a downward spiral, so many disagreements. IDK if you followed that drama(IMO, it's better than any soap opera/Drama on TV).

You can say that again.... buy up companies and smash them together, do a bunch of bullshit to make it look profitable enough to sell, sell it, rinse and repeat.

Meanwhile those of us on the ground go "Hey we should do a bunch of stuff to make our products and service better...." and they go "No.... we just need to cut spending to make the bottom line look nice for the quarter so we can sell you".
 

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