Building through the Draft

[modo]

Nothing wrong with that cause the bear scouts saw something in them and paid low value as well since they were castoffs. Akiem Hicks was a huge win for Pace as he didn't work out with either Sean Peyton or Billy B., both respected coaches, hall of fame bound.

Pace also paid under value for Robinson <cause other teams shied away from his knee injury>. Winner winner chicken dinner!

Nothing wrong with that cause the bear scouts saw something in them and paid low value as well since they were castoffs. Akiem Hicks was a huge win for Pace as he didn't work out with either Sean Peyton or Billy B., both respected coaches, hall of fame bound.

Pace also paid under value for Robinson <cause other teams shied away from his knee injury>. Winner winner chicken dinner!

While I enjoy your enthusiasm, Robinson, Hicks and Mack all cost way more than single draft picks when they were acquired.

It is also an antithesis to Pace's stated philosophy of how teams should build.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

I'm just not going to argue the point with you.

The bulk of arguably the best NFL team of all time was drafted in 5 years...6 years if you want to add The Fridge in '85.

You could absolutely do that today and keep that team together because most of them would still be on rookie contracts.

True.

But have you considered that it was started by the best general manager of all time?

Well, he made the team a playoff team (1977 and 1979) for the first time since 1963. The winning started under him and continued growing afterwards.

Jim Finks was the creator of the 85 Bears, the purple people eaters (Vikings) and the Saints team that became a playoff team for the very first time under him in team history (they were awful before him).

There is no GM to match what Finks did, so, although possible, it is not the easiest thing to create a championship team in 5 years.

But, yes, Pace has done some wasteful things both with draft picks and the salary cap.

 

[JoJoBoxer]

How the heck did you get to that number?

Offensive line: Mustipher, Daniels, Whitehair, Jenkins
RB: Montgomery
TE: Kmet
WR: Mooney
QB: Fields...eventually

Defensive line: Nichols, maybe Goldman
LB: Roquan, maybe Trevis Gibson (I have doubts that Quinn actually starts)
CB: Johnson, Vildor
Safety: Jackson

Punter: O'donnell

So, by my count, I figure at least 11, Vildor makes it 12, Gibson or Goldman could make it 13 and Fields would make it 14. And technically adding the kicker would get to 15. If both Gibson and Goldman start, you are at 16. And Mustipher was a UDFA. So, at least half and likely over half the projected 2021 starters are home grown.

I mean, I don't disagree with the point that the Bears need to develop more of their own guys and they need more draft picks to be able to do that. But let's at least be real that Pace has drafted decent with the picks he has made. I do think he has learned from some of his mistakes he made early on as GM. Especially since the 2018 draft with Roquan, I think he has put more emphasis on production than drafting just projection - that is a hard balance to find.

As I said before, the one lesson he learned from his very first draft that I wish he would revisit and 'un-learn' is the trade up to get 'his' guys. IMO, when he just missed out on Leonard Williams in 2015, the take away he took from that is he needs to move up to get the players he really wants. He hasn't often shown the patience to stand pat or trade back. Even if FA, I think he needs to learn some patience as their rush to sign some of the guys has given them some pretty bad deals like Glennon, Quinn, the trade for Foles, etc.

Yeah, that 10 starter talk was confusing to me. Goldman certainly needs to be counted as a starter, until he isn't. Gibson needs to not be counted as a starter until he is.

I feel that 15 starters is a good percentage. Yes, it would be nice to get home-grown players as the starters at every position, but then, it would be best to start all UDFAs who were all diamonds in the rough because the Bears would save a ton on salaries (though unrealistic).

Where players are drafted should not matter, just results. Consider that the '85 Bears had UDFA Jay Hilgenberg and Richard Dent who would have been an UDFA if the draft were only 7 rounds like today.

People here always make fun of the Bears UDFA signing, but fail to understand that every single year, there are UDFAs who become important to some teams. People need to understand that some very good players fall through the cracks and they can be what saves a team's salary cap while still providing good players.

 

[iueyedoc]

Here is the projected depth chart for the Bears from Ourlads.com. You can arguing maybes, special packages, special teams players all you would like. Same can be said for every team. But as this stands, Bears are 32nd out of 32 teams for self drafted starters.

 

[bears51/40]

Here is the projected depth chart for the Bears from Ourlads.com. You can arguing maybes, special packages, special teams players all you would like. Same can be said for every team. But as this stands, Bears are 32nd out of 32 teams for self drafted starters.

View attachment 12486

Where I would have a problem with this depth chart is...................
No nickel back listed. Ourlads cant even hazard a guess?
Goldman listed as the backup NT to Nichols. That would have Nichols playing out of position.
Whithair at C when he may have played his best ball as a Bear last year at LG.
You can tell Ourlads depth charts around the league are written in pencil, because many of them are incomplete.

It is much easier to rip Pace for his many head scratching moves with your own eyes from the Glennon signing to not extending your best offensive weapon in 2020 than to use depth charts written before any official team depth charts are submitted by NFL teams.

 

[Canth]

Here is the projected depth chart for the Bears from Ourlads.com. You can arguing maybes, special packages, special teams players all you would like. Same can be said for every team. But as this stands, Bears are 32nd out of 32 teams for self drafted starters.

View attachment 12486

Ok, so the differences of what I had to this are the offensive line and CB position. What they are showing at offensive line just seems wrong to me. It isn't based on how they ended the season last year or on any report out of OTAs or minicamp. Based on the minicamp, they literally got who is lining up at every offensive line position wrong except for Jenkins at LT.

 

[The Big Grabowski]

Here is the projected depth chart for the Bears from Ourlads.com. You can arguing maybes, special packages, special teams players all you would like. Same can be said for every team. But as this stands, Bears are 32nd out of 32 teams for self drafted starters.

View attachment 12486

Lol, the projection for OL is laughably uninformed. Obviously there's no depth chart listed on the website at this point but it's easy to figure out who is starting where based on media coverage.

Ifedi clearly isn't playing guard. He's low key competing at RT with Borom and will probably end up starting. Mustipher is unquestionably at center. Goldman is NT barring some dramatic development. I would guess Shelley is nickel at this point. No idea how slot WR is shaking out. Goodwin seems to be WR3 based on buzz.

Just to throw out a random comparison, the Ravens—one of the better drafting teams in the league—have 14 starters they drafted according to the depth charts on OurLads.com.

Pace deserves criticism in regards to quantity of picks and even his first round hit rate, but overall he's balanced his shortcomings with late round success. He's had mixed success as a GM and this draft will be a huge measure of his performance.

 

[Spitta Andretti]

Here is the projected depth chart for the Bears from Ourlads.com. You can arguing maybes, special packages, special teams players all you would like. Same can be said for every team. But as this stands, Bears are 32nd out of 32 teams for self drafted starters.

View attachment 12486

This is not how the depth chart will look

 

[Anytime23]

Don’t think they’re buddies

I like HT. I don't agree with a lot of his political takes but i'm not going to torch him about it like many here. I agree with a lot of his football opinions and on in this section, that's all that matters to me.

 

[Anytime23]

it's the whole picture.

Point blank.

 

[jooo83]

Lewis has rough sides but you got to be an alpha male asshole to play in the nfl. It's not a choir boy league, lol

On the topic of different eras, it's also why Jim Brown dominated back in his day. There were still a lot of white db's and safety's playing in his heyday to run over, lol

Jim Brown also played behind an outstanding offensive line (a hall of fame guard, 6 time pro bowl tackle, 2 time pro bowl guard, and a 2 time pro bowl center). The RB that replaced him as starter after retirement, LeRoy Kelly, is in the Hall of Fame as well. Kelly led the league in TDs the year after Brown retired, and was the league leader in rushing yards the 2 seasons that followed. Nobody mentions that when discussing Jim Brown. For the record, I'm not trying to take anything away from Brown. But just like Emmitt Smith, there's no question he played with a great Oline.

 

[Bearly]

Ok, so the differences of what I had to this are the offensive line and CB position. What they are showing at offensive line just seems wrong to me. It isn't based on how they ended the season last year or on any report out of OTAs or minicamp. Based on the minicamp, they literally got who is lining up at every offensive line position wrong except for Jenkins at LT.

Huh?

 

[Montucky]

Here is the projected depth chart for the Bears from Ourlads.com. You can arguing maybes, special packages, special teams players all you would like. Same can be said for every team. But as this stands, Bears are 32nd out of 32 teams for self drafted starters.

View attachment 12486

This is a stubbornly awful roster projection.

 

[Canth]

Huh?

I was looking at the projected starters in the provided ourlads images that were drafted/UDFA by the Bears vs the ones I had identified in another post. Offensive line and CB (ie Mustipher and Vildor) were the main differences.

Then I was just further commenting that their entire projection for the offensive line was off.

From the latest minicamp, all the media sources are indicating the starting offensive line is currently:
Jenkins-Whitehair-Mustipher-Daniels-Ifedi

Ourlads was showing
Jenkins-Daniels-Whitehair-Ifedi-Wilkinson

So, they are projecting 4 of the 5 guys in different positions than what has actually already been seen in minicamp and reported by Chicago beat writers.

 

[Montucky]

I was looking at the projected starters in the provided ourlads images that were drafted/UDFA by the Bears vs the ones I had identified in another post. Offensive line and CB (ie Mustipher and Vildor) were the main differences.

Then I was just further commenting that their entire projection for the offensive line was off.

From the latest minicamp, all the media sources are indicating the starting offensive line is currently:
Jenkins-Whitehair-Mustipher-Daniels-Ifedi

Ourlads was showing
Jenkins-Daniels-Whitehair-Ifedi-Wilkinson

So, they are projecting 4 of the 5 guys in different positions than what has actually already been seen in minicamp and reported by Chicago beat writers.

Yeah its just nonsense. I can't take it seriously when it gets so much wrong.

 

[iueyedoc]

Ok, so the differences of what I had to this are the offensive line and CB position. What they are showing at offensive line just seems wrong to me. It isn't based on how they ended the season last year or on any report out of OTAs or minicamp. Based on the minicamp, they literally got who is lining up at every offensive line position wrong except for Jenkins at LT.

Lol, the projection for OL is laughably uninformed. Obviously there's no depth chart listed on the website at this point but it's easy to figure out who is starting where based on media coverage.

Ifedi clearly isn't playing guard. He's low key competing at RT with Borom and will probably end up starting. Mustipher is unquestionably at center. Goldman is NT barring some dramatic development. I would guess Shelley is nickel at this point. No idea how slot WR is shaking out. Goodwin seems to be WR3 based on buzz.

Just to throw out a random comparison, the Ravens—one of the better drafting teams in the league—have 14 starters they drafted according to the depth charts on OurLads.com.

Pace deserves criticism in regards to quantity of picks and even his first round hit rate, but overall he's balanced his shortcomings with late round success. He's had mixed success as a GM and this draft will be a huge measure of his performance.

They may be wrong on OL, but at best that adds Mustipher while subtracting, Wilkinson/Ifedi.
And Goldman instead of Nichols is a moot point. Again, getting into 5thDB or 3rd or 4th WR is pointless minutiae.

So add an 11th drafted starter and they are still bottom of the barrel, how anyone can argue that Pace's drafting hasn't been poor is mind boggling. Has he gotten better the last year or 2? Could be, but that is based on exponentially more speculation than that of Ourlands depth chart. And he still can't stop giving 1st rd picks away.

 

[Milky]

They may be wrong on OL, but at best that adds Mustipher while subtracting, Wilkinson/Ifedi.
Goldman instead of Nichols is a moot point. Again, getting into 5thDB or 3rd or 4th WR is pointless minutiae.

How is adding Goldman and moving Nichols to his best position moot? Edwards to the bench. That gets you to 12.

Reports out of minicamp is that Vildor looked really good and has a real chance to win CB2. 13


Miller has been the starting slot WR for 3 years now so at the very least it’s his job to lose. Newsome was drafted this year to compete there as well. 14

The depth chart lists 12 starters on O and 11 on D (weird) listing two TE’s but leaving out the NB. That’s more than likely Shelley. So that’s potentially 15 if you give both sides of the ball 12 starters.

So add an 11th drafted starter and they are still bottom of the barrel, how anyone can argue that Pace's drafting hasn't been poor is mind boggling. Has he gotten better the last year or 2? Could be, but that is based on exponentially more speculation than that of Ourlands depth chart. And he still can't stop giving 1st rd picks away.

The point is solid but the source is junk.

 

[The Big Grabowski]

They may be wrong on OL, but at best that adds Mustipher while subtracting, Wilkinson/Ifedi.
And Goldman instead of Nichols is a moot point. Again, getting into 5thDB or 3rd or 4th WR is pointless minutiae.

So add an 11th drafted starter and they are still bottom of the barrel, how anyone can argue that Pace's drafting hasn't been poor is mind boggling. Has he gotten better the last year or 2? Could be, but that is based on exponentially more speculation than that of Ourlands depth chart. And he still can't stop giving 1st rd picks away.

I'm not counting slot WR or nickel in my 13. Not sure why you're being so dense here insisting that it's 11. Let me add em up for you again:

1. Mustipher - C
2. Whitehair - LG
3. Daniels - RG
4. Jenkins - LT
5. Kmet - TE
6. Mooney - WR
7. Montgomery - RB
8. Nichols - DE
9. Goldman - NT
10. Roquan - ILB
11. Johnson - CB
12. Vildor - CB
13. Jackson - S

 

[CaliBearFan]

The method that built the 85 Bears is very different than the current NFL...

That comparison is irrelevant.

The best way to have a competitive team is to have a kick ass QB. That is almost exclusively done thru the draft, but there are some exceptions in trades and FA.

The rest of your team can vary, but most of the time you need a healthy crop of producing draft players with a garnish of free agents.

The Bears best players are free agents from other teams. That being said, if Fields works out, it gets a lot better for Pace and the Bears.

I agree except you are leaving out Roquan who might be the most talented player in the team this year. Robinson and Mack are obviously in that conversation.

 

[CaliBearFan]

The pissed came from not having a plan at QB. Pace lucked out in that department but that was the more pressing need that has been elusive for years

Its not like this is a 4 win team that he's put together

Lucked out sounds like Fields fell to 20. I agree Pace was fortunate that Fields fell but he played the draft perfectly given the situation. If he traded up any higher than where he did it would have cost a lot more, and any later we likely miss out. He deserves his credit for that.