Bulls/Griz still talking

Crystallas

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My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
Boozer 32/Noah 8/Deng 8 (with a new SG Brewer/Korver play more SF letting Deng play some PF AND still cut his overall minutes)
Noah 28/Asik 10/Thomas 10 (give these 10 to Asik next year with Thomas gone)

Done.

=/

Boozer is injury prone.
Noah is injury prone.
Deng ....
Asik was hurt in some form in each of his Turkish stints.

Maybe it looks good and easy on paper, but you can't replace Taj's minutes, because his minutes aren't from a standard rotation. Most of his minutes are from filling in for Booz and Jo.
 

WearShades

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Boozer 32/Noah 8/Deng 8 (with a new SG Brewer/Korver play more SF letting Deng play some PF AND still cut his overall minutes)
Noah 28/Asik 10/Thomas 10 (give these 10 to Asik next year with Thomas gone)

Done.

I apologize if I didn't understand your minute splits. I'm assuming the first row listed is the minute breakdown for PF and the second one is for the C.

You want to give more minutes to Deng, and give them to him when he's playing the four? He's already playing more than he should. Also, why would Noah not be the center whenever he was on the floor? He doesn't provide much in the way of an outside shot like Gibson and Boozer do (and it'll be awhile before he gets even the little bit of what he had before the wrist injury back). You'd be making any situation where the PF/C wasn't Boozer/Noah a much easier one to the defense to defend. There just isn't a PF on this team outside of Boozer and Gibson, and I believe Gibson is better than Mayo, Parker, Afflalo and the other names that have been rumored. If you have to give him up for one of them it's not worth it considering you can probably find a decent 2 guard elsewhere for a late 2011 first rounder and the cap relief such a deal would provide the other team. That's why the JJ trade was a big coup for the Bulls. It gives them the ability to take on a pretty decent amount of salary that another team might want to get rid of. I wouldn't be surprised if that team was Cleveland who could get a pick for a guy they're not winning with now and won't be resigning when his contract is up after the season.
 

WearShades

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=/

Boozer is injury prone.
Noah is injury prone.
Deng ....
Asik was hurt in some form in each of his Turkish stints.

Maybe it looks good and easy on paper, but you can't replace Taj's minutes, because his minutes aren't from a standard rotation. Most of his minutes are from filling in for Booz and Jo.

Had I read this before making my last post I wouldn't have bothered. You said what I wanted to say with not even a third of the space it took me to do it.
 

Shakes

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I want to play Deng less. But to play Deng less you need another good wing. I want to cut his SF minutes down to about 24 minutes. Getting a quality shooting guard and shifting more of Brewer/Korver's minutes to SF would do that. He already plays about 8 minutes a game at PF according to 82games.

Noah and Asik looked good on the floor together before Noah got injured. It's obviously not something you want to do for long stretches but I think you can get away with it for 8 minutes a night when you want to go with a defensive look.

As far as injuries go that's why you sign a vet to play the Kurt Thomas role. I simply don't agree with the argument of keeping a guy to plug holes in your injury rotation when you have holes in your main rotation. Fix the SG hole, the injury cover role is luxury compared to it.

I like Taj but the Bulls simply can't offer both him and Asik the minutes they deserve long term. I'd love to keep him but if push comes to shove and just picks isn't going to get a deal done he's the odd man out. He's fairly young and still got a while to run on his rookie contract, so now's the time to move him while he's at his max value.
 

WearShades

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I want to play Deng less. But to play Deng less you need another good wing. I want to cut his SF minutes down to about 24 minutes. Getting a quality shooting guard and shifting more of Brewer/Korver's minutes to SF would do that. He already plays about 8 minutes a game at PF according to 82games.

Noah and Asik looked good on the floor together before Noah got injured. It's obviously not something you want to do for long stretches but I think you can get away with it for 8 minutes a night when you want to go with a defensive look.

The bolded part is the important part. That's a look they only use when they want to go big and play tougher defense. That's not something they can really do in other situations because it just doesn't produce enough points, and you need someone besides Boozer to be able to perform on the offensive end at PF. And has been stated already, you don't really want to be w/o a competent replacement for Boozer if/when he gets hurt. We would not be close to the record we have had Gibson not been there to cover for Boozer during that early stretch. You've got Gibson under his rookie deal for this season, next season, and the season after that. Why would you give that up for a player who may not even be better than he is given how important he's been?

As far as injuries go that's why you sign a vet to play the Kurt Thomas role. I simply don't agree with the argument of keeping a guy to plug holes in your injury rotation when you have holes in your main rotation. Fix the SG hole, the injury cover role is luxury compared to it.

Kurt Thomas covers Noah, not Boozer, though I agree something should probably be done for the SG position. I just think you can get that improvement without trading Taj now that we can take on salary and trade another first round pick. This way you don't create a hole as you're filling another one.

I like Taj but the Bulls simply can't offer both him and Asik the minutes they deserve long term. I'd love to keep him but if push comes to shove and just picks isn't going to get a deal done he's the odd man out. He's fairly young and still got a while to run on his rookie contract, so now's the time to move him while he's at his max value.

I don't agree with this premise. For starters, Asik is currently a foul machine so increasing his minutes this season doesn't seem like a wise move. He'll get better with the fouls in future seasons, and when he does he'll be the #2 center in place of Kurt Thomas. Gibson is getting about 23 minutes a game, which should be enough to satisfy him. He absolutely can play more minutes, but he's not exactly getting snubbed by playing 23. While I do see your point on trading players when they're at their max value, I don't think it's worth it here considering that we can probably get that SG upgrade w/o trading Taj or Asik.

On a semi-tangential note, if either Taj or Asik has to be traded, I think I'd rather part with Asik. That wasn't exactly being discussed here but I feel like it was going to come up sooner or later.
 

Shakes

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Remember the time when Boozer was out was when Bogans blew goats and Brewer was starting the season injured. A decent SG would have really helped during that stretch, probably about as much as Gibson did.

My view is Noah can play some PF, Deng can play some PF, it depends on match ups. You wont have them play 8 minutes each at PF every night, but those are averages. Some nights Boozer will play more than 32, most good players MPG averages are misleading because they play more when it matters and rest in one sided games.

I certainly would rather keep Asik, despite being a foul machine he's still able to play similar to Gibson's 23 minutes a night before fouling out (he averages a foul every 6 minutes, not every 4). Plus he's the only backup center going forward, as mentioned above other players can fill in at PF, Gibson or Boozer at center just hasn't worked sadly. I also think he's going to be a better player than Taj anyway, his size allows him to have more of an impact on defense, and although Taj has a jumper it's been going in at such a low rate I think I prefer Asik's policy of dunk or pass.

I didn't say trading Taj was my preference, obviously I'd prefer not to disrupt the rotation, but if push comes to shove and a team wont deal unless the deal involved Taj then yes I do it. The new CBA might limit our options to improve through free agency, so if we can get a SG right now we should do it.

I don't even like Mayo that much, I've called him a poor man's Ben Gordon (or a Detroit man's Ben Gordon) in the past, but even at that sort of level he offers more to the team than Gibson does simply because of fit. The Bulls are at the point where fit matters more than winning every trade.
 

WearShades

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Remember the time when Boozer was out was when Bogans blew goats and Brewer was starting the season injured. A decent SG would have really helped during that stretch, probably about as much as Gibson did.

Even if we agree that such a SG would be as good a player as Gibson (I don't agree, but for sake of argument) that would still be ignoring the fact that the ones being offered don't have the great contract that Gibson has for this year and the next two. So in this case we'd still be coming out behind where we started.

My view is Noah can play some PF, Deng can play some PF, it depends on match ups. You wont have them play 8 minutes each at PF every night, but those are averages. Some nights Boozer will play more than 32, most good players MPG averages are misleading because they play more when it matters and rest in one sided games.

You do want to play the matchups, but what you said here ignores most regular situations when you want to have a standard center and a standard power forward on the court together which we wouldn't be able to do behind Boozer.

I certainly would rather keep Asik, despite being a foul machine he's still able to play similar to Gibson's 23 minutes a night before fouling out (he averages a foul every 6 minutes, not every 4). Plus he's the only backup center going forward, as mentioned above other players can fill in at PF, Gibson or Boozer at center just hasn't worked sadly. I also think he's going to be a better player than Taj anyway, his size allows him to have more of an impact on defense, and although Taj has a jumper it's been going in at such a low rate I think I prefer Asik's policy of dunk or pass.

As I said earlier I don't think Noah can play the four due to his lack of a 10-15 ft perimeter game, and Deng shouldn't be put in position to be the four unless they're facing a small lineup and want push for more transition basketball. So basically the difference between us on this point is I'm more concerned we wouldn't have any depth at PF, and you're worried we won't have any depth at C. For this season they'd have Thomas in case Asik was traded, so I'd rather go that route if one must be traded. As for the bit about Taj's jumper, I haven't noticed it missing too much more than it should so either I'm missing some plays or it's just something you're overly negative about. Either way he's the less replaceable player between him and Asik.

I didn't say trading Taj was my preference, obviously I'd prefer not to disrupt the rotation, but if push comes to shove and a team wont deal unless the deal involved Taj then yes I do it. The new CBA might limit our options to improve through free agency, so if we can get a SG right now we should do it.

I don't even like Mayo that much, I've called him a poor man's Ben Gordon (or a Detroit man's Ben Gordon) in the past, but even at that sort of level he offers more to the team than Gibson does simply because of fit. The Bulls are at the point where fit matters more than winning every trade.

Calling Mayo a poor man's Ben Gordon is a completely inaccurate description in my opinion. He's a pretty lousy perimeter shooter and he plays with the ball in his hands much more than Gordon ever did. I think this is another case of Mayo's reputation overshadowing his actual skill set and production.
 

pinkizdead

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Look, you can find a 3rd quality big man in the nba. You can do it in the draft and through free agency. You can't find a starting 2 guard as easily as a 3rd big man. Especially if your bigman is all defense and marginal offense.
 

houheffna

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I don't understand all of the Mayo hate. People seem to think he is not a good player...and that is not the case. Mayo is a good player who could potentially get really good by playing with Rose. He is a good scorer and can create his own shot. And he is a sizable improvement over anybody the Bulls have at the position...so I am a bit miffed by the lack of Mayo love...
 

WearShades

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Look, you can find a 3rd quality big man in the nba. You can do it in the draft and through free agency. You can't find a starting 2 guard as easily as a 3rd big man. Especially if your bigman is all defense and marginal offense.

But if you can get a starting 2 guard without giving anything other than really late first round picks than that easily trumps trading Taj or Asik.
 

WearShades

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I don't understand all of the Mayo hate. People seem to think he is not a good player...and that is not the case. Mayo is a good player who could potentially get really good by playing with Rose. He is a good scorer and can create his own shot. And he is a sizable improvement over anybody the Bulls have at the position...so I am a bit miffed by the lack of Mayo love...

He is a good player, but he's not the guy Memphis thought they were getting when they traded Kevin Love for him. He's not a star, he's not going to be anything more than a solid starter if he improves. It seems clear now that he was the product of a body that developed before most of his competition did, and he's now fallen behind his contemporaries. I also don't think he's a good fit for the Bulls. However, in a vacuum I still think he's a decent player. Would I rather give up picks and one of our young bigs for him when a similar 2-guard can be acquired for less? No.
 

NealKleren

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Saying Taj is only a bench player is misleading. He's averaging just under 23 minutes a game and there isn't another player on the team that can replace those minutes. I'm not against trading Taj if the deal is right but none of the guys mentioned are worth him. Given the extra room under the cap the Bulls have now, they should be able to absorb a contract of a decent 2 guard w/o giving up much. Taj isn't going to be part of a deal.

Well you know what I mean. Imo upgrading the sg postition at this time would be more important than keeping Taj. Imo OJ would be the only one you MIGHT want to trade Taj for.The rest no. I would like Parker for a second round pick though but I guess Cleveland wants more for there players supposedly or they might just keep them.
 
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WearShades

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Well you know what ?I mean. Imo upgrading the sg postition at this time would be more important than keeping Taj. Imo OJ would be the only one you MIGHT want to trade Taj for.The rest no. I would like Parker for a second round pick though but I guess Cleveland wants more for there players supposedly or they might just keep them.

I really don't think the sg position has to be upgraded. Brewer, who is the starter in all but name, is a pretty decent player. I wouldn't mind improving the position but I just don't think it's worth trading one of our bigs over considering we can get another, similar level sg for less. I'd take Courtney Lee for the two late 2011 firsts we have or Anthony Parker for just a first rather than trade Taj for Mayo.
 

NealKleren

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I really don't think the sg position has to be upgraded. Brewer, who is the starter in all but name, is a pretty decent player. I wouldn't mind improving the position but I just don't think it's worth trading one of our bigs over considering we can get another, similar level sg for less. I'd take Courtney Lee for the two late 2011 firsts we have or Anthony Parker for just a first rather than trade Taj for Mayo.

I would do that as well if we could avoid trading Taj for him. But supposedly Cleveland doesn't want to trade him now and supposedly Bostons in the mix for him now too. Either way like I said I could care less if we don't make a move but it better happen in the summer though.
 

WearShades

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I would do that as well if we could avoid trading Taj for him. But supposedly Cleveland doesn't want to trade him now and supposedly Bostons in the mix for him now too. Either way like I said I could care less if we don't make a move but it better happen in the summer though.

They're just trying to get more out of the Bulls. At the end of the day they aren't going to hold onto Anthony Parker because they'd only be getting draft pick compensation. Ryen Russillo said on the NBA Today podcast that the people he's talked to said the Bulls have only offered one first rounder for Courtney Lee and once they up that to two it's a deal, so I have a hard time believing Anthony Parker would cost more than a pick.
 

NealKleren

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They're just trying to get more out of the Bulls. At the end of the day they aren't going to hold onto Anthony Parker because they'd only be getting draft pick compensation. Ryen Russillo said on the NBA Today podcast that the people he's talked to said the Bulls have only offered one first rounder for Courtney Lee and once they up that to two it's a deal, so I have a hard time believing Anthony Parker would cost more than a pick.

Oh I know that,the Cavs will have to make a trade if they want to start rebuilding. They cant hold onto these players just for no reason.
 

WearShades

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Oh I know that,the Cavs will have to make a trade if they want to start rebuilding. They cant hold onto these players just for no reason.

And they won't. They're just trying to see what else they can get out of the Bulls. As the Bulls are coming from a position of strength they'll come down to the Bulls offer. Both teams win in it, really.
 

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