Bushrod gave up 2nd-most QB hurries of any OT in 2012

[Colonel_Buendia]

The OP is right. The Bears are screwed. Bushrod is barely an upgrade over Webb. The Bears made a huge mistake taking a Pro-Bowler over a failed "project". I mean who makes that type of decision? What could they have been thinking? Wow....

I didn't say anything near any of that, nor do I appreciate the false attribution

 

[BearsFan51]

Great. So you are equating the yards the distance the football traveled through the air when thrown with how long Cutler held on to the ball. Doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, whenever you find the time to answer my simple 4-point post, it would be appreciated.

Well considering that it takes time for wide receivers to run longer deeper routes, wouldn't a QB have to hold onto the ball longer to let those routes develop down the field?

Or are you of the opinion that the ball is thrown up into the very quickly, stops in mid flight, then continues on once the receivers get beyond the 15-yards down the field mark?

Maybe Cutler throws it straight it up into the air like a punt while they run deeper routes down the field?

I don't know you'll have to explain this all to me because all I have to go on is the thoughts in YOUR head about how it doesn't take receivers very long to run more than 15 yards.

 

[BearsFan51]

But Cutler can hold on to the ball for 7 seconds, while Marshall has completed his route and then worked his way back to the QB, and then Cutler ends up throwing a 10-yard pass to Marshall. Or if Cutler is sacked IMMEDIATELY after the snap (something the Bears did a lot of over the past few years), it doesn't really matter what route the WRs are running, and since Cutler didn't actually throw the football this play would be ignored in your context. In fact, all sacks would be ignored based on the "metric" you are referring to. Absolutely incredible on your part.

Its like you are trying to use ERA to judge how many HRs a pitcher gives up...instead of just looking at how many HRs a pitcher gives up.

Its not that difficult of a concept.

Anyway, whenever you find the time to answer my simple 4-point post, it would be appreciated.

'

You must be completely oblivious to the type of offense the Bears ran last year and you're completely oblivious Marc Trestman's emphasis on getting the ball out quicker this year.

All off-season the conversation has been about how the Bears plan on working on getting the ball out quicker so there is less pressure on Cutler and less pressure on the offensive line to hold their blocks longer.

I thought this was common knowledge, but go ahead and try to muddy up the discussion so you look less like a dumb ass.

 

[hyatt151]

Which reality would that be?

Cause you're not gonna convince me that Bushrod is not an upgrade over Webb.

And that Slaussen isn't an upgrade over Chilo.

And that the whole OL isn't better without Carimi.

or that somebody on life support isn`t an upgrade over someone who`s dead.

 

[BearFanJohn]

I didn't say anything near any of that, nor do I appreciate the false attribution

Fine. Your inference was that Bushrod is not much of an upgrade over Webb. You used some, apparently, well researched statistics. But as Disraeli said and popularized by Twain, "There are three types of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics". You used stats to make a clear point. A point that I have never read nor heard; that Bushrod wasn't a big upgrade over Webb. Otherwise, why the post? So, my apologies for the false attribution but the inference of the OP was that Bushrod wasn't an upgrade. Bushrod isn't the savior, I agree, but Webb was a disaster and looking back serves little.

 

[Bearly]

I wasn't clear on what I meant with mental ability. Webb may be a Rhodes Scholar for all I know, but I don't think so. My concern is his ability to make quick decisions in pressure situations and his "feel"for the game. I think he's ridden freakish physical talents about as far as he can. So many times last year his pressures or sacks were complete whiffs or inexplicably getting beat inside when having outside help. I just think he is the OT version of Alonzo Spellman.

Oh,and the video where he references football as his job, in a this job sucks sort of tone, really doesn't say over achiever to me.

His help is overrated with RTs that couldn't hold their own and then you go on to reference a vid after you say it wasn't a factor. Yes, he got beat inside too often and is the only reason I think Bushrod is an upgrade but watch Bushrod for a while, he doesn't stay engaged any better than Webb and maybe not as well other than on the crossover. The crossover counts and why he should help. He's also not done improving either. Bushrod should actually have had better #s than he did in a system that rolls the QB away from his side pretty often but you need to look at his entire body of work. Unlike Webb that's been getting better every year which was surprising last year considering how he showed up in camp, Bushrod had a down one and it was likely an awakening. I expect another step up this year. If Bushrod and Webb recommit, We're actually in pretty good shape at T with this system.

This is sort of their year to show or blow.

 

[BearsFan51]

Lots to respond to here.

First, you make it a point to claim that Webb is good and will be good at RT. So...why would the comparison be between Bushrod and Webb if Webb is going to continue to be a starter? Wouldn't the sum total be Bushrod replacing Carimi/Scott in the starting lineup, allowing Webb to move to the less pass-block strenuous RT? How could the Bushrod signing be viewed as anything but a positive for the Bears?

The point of this thread is to compare Bushrod's body of work with Webb's body of work and discuss the potential fact that the Bears likely overpaid to sign a very mediocre left tackle. The Bears didn't have a lot of free agent money to go around so it's a simple discussion of whether the money could have been spent elsewhere.

Second, the Bears didn't invest THAT much money in Bushrod. You always overpay in FA, but the Bears/Emery were kind of stuck in a corner because they had very little OL talent. Lovie was fired because of his bad OL. I don't know what you are suggesting as an alternative to the Bushrod signing...should the Bears have stood pat with Webb at LT?

The Bears could have stood pat with Webb at LT absolutely. Carimi had a knee problem and was a tremendous run blocker. He was a tremendous run blocker because that's what they did at Wisconsin. Carimi was learning to pass block and his knee was in need of rehab, he didn't get to rehab last off-season because he had three surgeries. If Carimi's knee winds up healthy and he becomes a better pass blocker the Bears could have had two young cheap OT options.

Third, one of the key components is how much help Webb needed, and how that limited the Bears to having only 2-3 pass targets on pass plays. You always gloss over this aspect, making some subjective claim that Bushrod received as much help as Webb (highly dubious), yet this was the main reason why the Bears needed to move Webb from LT and sign Bushrod. How many plays did Bushrod receive help? How many plays did Webb receive help? If you can't answer that question, then this discussion is kind of pointless.

Your assumption is that Bushrod gave up more pressures because more often he was out on an island...but you have no evidence to back up your assertion. This question isn't even worth answering until you provide evidence that Bushrod received less help than Webb did. You didn't watch the Saints play last year and you've likely not gone back and watched the coach's tape.

Fourth, the whole "pressures" stat is not very objective. In most quick passing spread offenses, the OTs are taught to not let anyone beat them inside. If the DE has to go outside, by the time he runs around you the QB will have released the ball and the DE will have taken himself out of the passing lane. The Bears OL in general and Webb in particular were TERRIBLE at allowing inside pressure...quite honestly the worst I have ever seen in NFL history. So perhaps these "pressures" that Bushrod gave up were partly by design.

There's a ass load of speculation on behalf of Bushrod that you have absolutely no evidence to back up. You've essentially asked two questions that make two baseless assumptions, you create your analysis and thought to mold your argument when you have no evidence to the contrary.


What a waste of time your questions were.

 

[Colonel_Buendia]

Fine. Your inference was that Bushrod is not much of an upgrade over Webb. You used some, apparently, well researched statistics. But as Disraeli said and popularized by Twain, "There are three types of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics". You used stats to make a clear point. A point that I have never read nor heard; that Bushrod wasn't a big upgrade over Webb. Otherwise, why the post? So, my apologies for the false attribution but the inference of the OP was that Bushrod wasn't an upgrade. Bushrod isn't the savior, I agree, but Webb was a disaster and looking back serves little.

I didn't come here to make any point or take sides; you inferred something I didn't imply. I only added the Webb stats to the OP after people like you forced him into the conversation repeatedly. There's plenty of logical, calm ways to look at that stat and parse through its validity. But posters clearly preffered a bushrod v. webb circlejerk

 

[BearsFan51]

My assumption is these career ProFootballFocus stats will continue to be ignored:

Bushrod is notorious for giving up a lot of QB hits and QB pressures even when he has a "good year"

In 2011 Bushrod gave up 11 QB hits and 42 QB pressures

In 2010 Bushrod gave up nine QB hits and 48 QB pressures

In 2009 Bushrod gave up nine sacks, nine QB hits and 32 QB pressures.

So not only does he give up a high number of QB hits he gives up a high number of QB pressures on top of it.

Webb by comparison

In 2011 Webb gave up 12 sacks, 6 QB hits and 30 pressures

In 2010 at RT and his rookie year Webb gave up 12 sacks, 1 QB hit and 48 pressures.

 

[xer0h0ur]

Fuckin piss. Did DB54 and Vash have a child then gave him a website? Posters like you that can't live without shoving their opinions down people's throats are why I avoid forums.

 

[iueyedoc]

His help is overrated with RTs that couldn't hold their own and then you go on to reference a vid after you say it wasn't a factor. Yes, he got beat inside too often and is the only reason I think Bushrod is an upgrade but watch Bushrod for a while, he doesn't stay engaged any better than Webb and maybe not as well other than on the crossover. The crossover counts and why he should help. He's also not done improving either. Bushrod should actually have had better #s than he did in a system that rolls the QB away from his side pretty often but you need to look at his entire body of work. Unlike Webb that's been getting better every year which was surprising last year considering how he showed up in camp, Bushrod had a down one and it was likely an awakening. I expect another step up this year. If Bushrod and Webb recommit, We're actually in pretty good shape at T with this system.

This is sort of their year to show or blow.

Bushrod/Webb >>Webb/Carimi, agreed. But you have a lot of love for Webb that I don't understand. You have said before that the Bears probably won't be able to match an offer when he becomes a FA. He has made baby step improvements to be moderately below average, has multiple complete mental lapses in games, and lacks the meanness of successful O-lineman. I would have rather seen him punch JC after that shove last your, instead of looking like a scolded puppy. About the video, I'm not using that to evaluate him as a player, I just think if he doesn't have a passion for the game, he isn't likely to put in the extra work he would need to to be above average. As far as Bushrod, I think will be above average, and with some talent around him maybe very good.

 

[Bearly]

I agree with everything Rory just said except the constantly needing help part. Overstated and Bushrod got a similar amount, if not by bodies, than by rollouts. It could be argued he got more help overall but really, it's not the issue here. It's more about having a more complete player at a pivotal position and improving his bookend at the same time.

 

[Bearly]

Bushrod/Webb >>Webb/Carimi, agreed. But you have a lot of love for Webb that I don't understand. You have said before that the Bears probably won't be able to match an offer when he becomes a FA. He has made baby step improvements to be moderately below average, has multiple complete mental lapses in games, and lacks the meanness of successful O-lineman. I would have rather seen him punch JC after that shove last your, instead of looking like a scolded puppy. About the video, I'm not using that to evaluate him as a player, I just think if he doesn't have a passion for the game, he isn't likely to put in the extra work he would need to to be above average. As far as Bushrod, I think will be above average, and with some talent around him maybe very good.

I've never even said that Webb was VG but I have defended him from posters that treat him like he were a Packer. Last I checked, he was a Bear and not the worst one. That 90% of posters wanted to replace him with CW or Carimi says a lot about why I was at odds with posters. Dumb moves and the typical response from guys like you is to put me at the extrem position of loving him which is false. You on the other hand were part of the less than brilliant 'anybody but Webb' crew.

I don't have a lot of love for Webb or I would have wanted to keep him at LT and I don't. I just don't understand our best lineman from last year getting the most greif. No, it doesn't mean he's VG and I slammed him for not being in top shape comming into camp but that's called ballance. An out of shape Webb is still better than Carimi or CW that everybody else was sure would take his job. Again, not saying that much.

Again you come with comments outside of actions within the wistles when you said it isn't part of your evaluation. Are you an infallible phychiatrist that's had him on the couch? You imply it has something to do with his actual play. You just don't get that you're biased. If I have to argue against the passion and the fire. Just never mind. I guess he just played better than other 4 guys we had that had the passion and the fire, LOL.

 

[WCL]

Fuckin piss. Did DB54 and Vash have a child then gave him a website? Posters like you that can't live without shoving their opinions down people's throats are why I avoid forums.

Yeah, but he's really contributing to the board. So far, he's contributed two separate types of information:

1) a bunch of shit that everyone already knows

2) completely inaccurate information

 

[iueyedoc]

I've never even said that Webb was VG but I have defended him from posters that treat him like he were a Packer. Last I checked, he was a Bear and not the worst one. That 90% of posters wanted to replace him with CW or Carimi says a lot about why I was at odds with posters. Dumb moves and the typical response from guys like you is to put me at the extrem position of loving him which is false. You on the other hand were part of the less than brilliant 'anybody but Webb' crew.

I don't have a lot of love for Webb or I would have wanted to keep him at LT and I don't. I just don't understand our best lineman from last year getting the most greif. No, it doesn't mean he's VG and I slammed him for not being in top shape comming into camp but that's called ballance. An out of shape Webb is still better than Carimi or CW that everybody else was sure would take his job. Again, not saying that much.

Again you come with comments outside of actions within the wistles when you said it isn't part of your evaluation. You imply it has something to do with his actual play. You just don't get that you're biased. If I have to argue against the passion and the fire. Just never mind. I guess he just played better than other 4 guys we had that had the passion and the fire, LOL.

It's not part of evaluating his play, it's factors in about his potential. If he was all pro and wanted to make creepy home videos, treated his position as a 9-5 job, and politic for free tacos it wouldn't matter, but he isn't. You think he is going to continue to improve for some reason, I don't have confidence that he has the mental make up to be more than back up caliber, unfortunately starting for the Bears. I don't know what you mean bias, that implies I'm not factoring something fairly in my perspective because of some unrelated issue. I surely don't hold Webb in as high regard as you, but I don't think I am ignoring any of his merits. We just have different views of his future career path. I would not be disappointed in the least if I end up wrong, and he turns into a stud,but I would be shocked.

 

[Bearly]

I should have said roll right as opposed to a rollout. I never said they did it a lot but more than we did. You'll see in our O this year. QB will take some steps right out of his back peddle instead of a straight drop.

 

[Bearly]

We'll see.

 

[Jailbreak]

Come on, of course he'll roll right. He's right handed and in a WC system. If they emphasize his strengths, he'll be out of the pocket by design a lot more.

 

[MakeMyDay]

Excellent 4 point post @ Rory

 

[Bearly]

It's not part of evaluating his play, it's factors in about his potential. If he was all pro and wanted to make creepy home videos, treated his position as a 9-5 job, and politic for free tacos it wouldn't matter, but he isn't. You think he is going to continue to improve for some reason, I don't have confidence that he has the mental make up to be more than back up caliber, unfortunately starting for the Bears. I don't know what you mean bias, that implies I'm not factoring something fairly in my perspective because of some unrelated issue. I surely don't hold Webb in as high regard as you, but I don't think I am ignoring any of his merits. We just have different views of his future career path. I would not be disappointed in the least if I end up wrong, and he turns into a stud,but I would be shocked.

Because he's improved every season so far? You're the one looking at things beyong his play. I have no response to it because all I care about as a Bear fan is his play and things that can get him suspended like busts. If he's good enough to be better than the next guy with these so called mental issues, I'm OK with it.